there are times we sail with only the genoa; should we set the fairleads in the same way as we do with both sails, as don's chart instructs.
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settings
Mortyd: Yup, it does not matter if your sailing with the main/jib or just the jib or just the main - the settings for each sail depending on your point of sail and wind condition are the same. The boat personally feels better and if it could talk it would tell you it prefers to be sailed with both the main and jib. It has to do with balance as the jib alone is pushing the bow off. I'm curious, and would like to keep this thread going, as to when and why you would sail with the jib only. Anyone else out there, please chime in!!
Mortyd: Yup, it does not matter if your sailing with the main/jib or just the jib or just the main - the settings for each sail depending on your point of sail and wind condition are the same. The boat personally feels better and if it could talk it would tell you it prefers to be sailed with both the main and jib. It has to do with balance as the jib alone is pushing the bow off. I'm curious, and would like to keep this thread going, as to when and why you would sail with the jib only. Anyone else out there, please chime in!!
I often sail alone
and our current boat doesn't have any lines led aft other than the sheets. It is easiest for me to just unfurl the genny and sail it than to hook up the auto pilot, and hoist the main also. I am working on setting the boat up for easier single handed sailing.
and our current boat doesn't have any lines led aft other than the sheets. It is easiest for me to just unfurl the genny and sail it than to hook up the auto pilot, and hoist the main also. I am working on setting the boat up for easier single handed sailing.
a number of reasons, don; not in order. laziness - i'm the boss, and not the boat, and sometimes it's very easy to just unfurl the jib and be covered by my bimini which still doesn't have the window i paid for. it's been hot as hell here and i'd rather sail under the bimini unable to see the main. i have also found never-evers are more comfortable the first few times without the main up; espcially when the wind and seas are active. my 91 mkii performs fine with just the jib, and the helm is very neutral. i knew you'd say something and appreciate where it's coming from.
Agree with Don
I agree with Don, that sail trim is to point of sail, regardless of number of sails. Ordninarily, we sail with both main and genoa. When the wind pipes up, we reef and even depower with by flattening the sails. We recently added the Garhauer adjustable genoa cars and those ball-bearings sure make the work of adjusting the genoa cars so easy from the cockpit. This past Sunday, we did use only the genoa for a short time. We were headed back into port in the marked channel and I decided to fly the genoa for a while. It worked out OK.
I agree with Don, that sail trim is to point of sail, regardless of number of sails. Ordninarily, we sail with both main and genoa. When the wind pipes up, we reef and even depower with by flattening the sails. We recently added the Garhauer adjustable genoa cars and those ball-bearings sure make the work of adjusting the genoa cars so easy from the cockpit. This past Sunday, we did use only the genoa for a short time. We were headed back into port in the marked channel and I decided to fly the genoa for a while. It worked out OK.
For Don and others....
I have to admit to being a chronically late reefer. I always know when it's time to reduce sail area, but mostly wait hoping the conditions will improve. While my H28.5 sails well with the main reefed and a full genoa, I tend to furl the genoa up some rather than leave the cockpit to reef the main since it's easier. But recently I set out to sail on a very windy day. As I motored out to the deep water, I was considering my sail options. Since I had never done it before, I decided to leave the main rolled up and just let out the 150 furling genoa. The wind was blowing 16-18 kts and gusting into the mid-20s. I was astounded at how well the boat sailed with just the genoa flying. The boat had very little weather helm, no severe heel angles, and much to my delight, tacked easily. The headsail alone in those conditions was a clear winner. If my boat could talk, it would have said "this works for these conditions."
I have to admit to being a chronically late reefer. I always know when it's time to reduce sail area, but mostly wait hoping the conditions will improve. While my H28.5 sails well with the main reefed and a full genoa, I tend to furl the genoa up some rather than leave the cockpit to reef the main since it's easier. But recently I set out to sail on a very windy day. As I motored out to the deep water, I was considering my sail options. Since I had never done it before, I decided to leave the main rolled up and just let out the 150 furling genoa. The wind was blowing 16-18 kts and gusting into the mid-20s. I was astounded at how well the boat sailed with just the genoa flying. The boat had very little weather helm, no severe heel angles, and much to my delight, tacked easily. The headsail alone in those conditions was a clear winner. If my boat could talk, it would have said "this works for these conditions."
don, i just thought i'd point out that we see boats sailing only by jenny, or only by main, often, and they don't seem to be in the middle of deploying the other.
Depends on the length of the sail
If we go out for a quick sail, around an hour, we'll go out with the furling 150 alone. The primary reason is we have a 4 to 1 high aspect main with a bolt rope luff and it takes additional time to flake the main. To sail out to the race course w/ motor, we'll go out under only the main. For longer sails, always with the genoa and full main. If the wind pipes, the genoa is furled before the main is reefed.
If we go out for a quick sail, around an hour, we'll go out with the furling 150 alone. The primary reason is we have a 4 to 1 high aspect main with a bolt rope luff and it takes additional time to flake the main. To sail out to the race course w/ motor, we'll go out under only the main. For longer sails, always with the genoa and full main. If the wind pipes, the genoa is furled before the main is reefed.
various sail combination
When most sailors look at a boat on the water the first thing they generally notice is the lines of the boat. I do to but then I immediately jump to the sails. That is because sail trim is my business. I even check out the trim of sails in commercials and adv I see in magazines!! I will tell you I have seen more crazy setups for the wind condition and point of sail the mate is sailing on than most sailors will see in a life time and again that is because I'm looking for it all the time. A number of years ago, before I decided to get serious about sail trim I thought I was the only dumb sailor that did not get it and I would try to copy what I saw on the water. Little did I know I was not the only sailor who did not know much about sail trim. Turns out there were and are a whole bunch of them out there - that is why my crusade is never ending. The last time I tried to copy anyone was when I saw a mate with a double reefed main and a fully rolled out 155 and it was blowing lke stink. I knew this guy and later when I saw him at the YC I asked him in a nice way how he decided on that setup. I forget his answer but even with my limited knowledge at the time it did not make sense. Most of you regulars on this forum know the right and wrong of a particular sail trim for the point of sail and wind conditions and I'll bet many of you also wonder what the sailor your looking at is doing with his sails - am I right?
When most sailors look at a boat on the water the first thing they generally notice is the lines of the boat. I do to but then I immediately jump to the sails. That is because sail trim is my business. I even check out the trim of sails in commercials and adv I see in magazines!! I will tell you I have seen more crazy setups for the wind condition and point of sail the mate is sailing on than most sailors will see in a life time and again that is because I'm looking for it all the time. A number of years ago, before I decided to get serious about sail trim I thought I was the only dumb sailor that did not get it and I would try to copy what I saw on the water. Little did I know I was not the only sailor who did not know much about sail trim. Turns out there were and are a whole bunch of them out there - that is why my crusade is never ending. The last time I tried to copy anyone was when I saw a mate with a double reefed main and a fully rolled out 155 and it was blowing lke stink. I knew this guy and later when I saw him at the YC I asked him in a nice way how he decided on that setup. I forget his answer but even with my limited knowledge at the time it did not make sense. Most of you regulars on this forum know the right and wrong of a particular sail trim for the point of sail and wind conditions and I'll bet many of you also wonder what the sailor your looking at is doing with his sails - am I right?
H28.5
Warren: Is your boat a fractional rig? I think it is but might be wrong. On a masthead rig, the engine is the jib. On a fractional rig the engine is the main. On a fractional rig it is easier to get away with sailing with the jib only.
Warren: Is your boat a fractional rig? I think it is but might be wrong. On a masthead rig, the engine is the jib. On a fractional rig the engine is the main. On a fractional rig it is easier to get away with sailing with the jib only.
don, excusse me, but i spent a good part of my life doing things by the numbers, and now that i'm retired and have a sailboat it's often rewarding to be sloppy and get away with it. i do have your charts clipped to the bulkhead and use them most of the time.
i stopped reading sail magazine some time ago, so what did they say? did it apply to boats under seventy feet or within twenty miles of a coast?
Genoa only
I'm a little late to this thread ut there are some times I sail under genoa alone, primarily when I am motorsailing a fairly long downwind tack with strong winds and a following sea. I find that the following waves can cause the boat to yaw when they catch up with the boat, and as a result I may accidentally jibe, and rather than just rely on a preventer I use the genoa alone.
I'm a little late to this thread ut there are some times I sail under genoa alone, primarily when I am motorsailing a fairly long downwind tack with strong winds and a following sea. I find that the following waves can cause the boat to yaw when they catch up with the boat, and as a result I may accidentally jibe, and rather than just rely on a preventer I use the genoa alone.
I wonder if everyone understands that the fairlead settings are not a fixed point for any given headsail. Yes, you start out with a rough estimate of the correct lead position given pointing and wind strength. But then its time to make the adjustments which are critical to the sail shape. And a very small amount of adjustment can make a large change is the shape of the sail. For example, when we set up before a race and choose whatever headsail will be used, the cars are set at a starting point but need to be adjusted for the given conditions. Any comments Don?
For Don, Pt II
The H28.5 has a double spreader, masthead B&R rig. Unlike later B&R rigs, it also has a twin backstay. I'm not quite sure what you are implying by "getting away with the jib only." Can you explain further? As indicated, my particular boat really sailed well the day I tried just sailing in high winds with just the genoa. I was on a close reach and managed hull speeds all day. The boat (and me) felt stressless. I feel certain that if I had reefed the main and kept the genoa up I would have had to deal with severe heel angles and quite a bit of weather helm as the winds were gusting over 20 kts. I presume it was just a case of presenting less sail area to the wind. Whatever works, works.
The H28.5 has a double spreader, masthead B&R rig. Unlike later B&R rigs, it also has a twin backstay. I'm not quite sure what you are implying by "getting away with the jib only." Can you explain further? As indicated, my particular boat really sailed well the day I tried just sailing in high winds with just the genoa. I was on a close reach and managed hull speeds all day. The boat (and me) felt stressless. I feel certain that if I had reefed the main and kept the genoa up I would have had to deal with severe heel angles and quite a bit of weather helm as the winds were gusting over 20 kts. I presume it was just a case of presenting less sail area to the wind. Whatever works, works.
Warren H28.5
Warren: This is a bit of an overkill explanation but here's what I mean. With a masthead rig the engine is the jib. First you raise the main and your cruising along and then you roll out the jig. The rolling out of the jib is like dropping it into second and flooring it. With a fractional rig it is the opposite. You roll out the jib and cruise along and then you raise the main and it is like dropping it into second and flooring it. So what I ment was if a mate has a fractional rig he can get away with sailing with the jib only. On a masthead rig it is still obviously doable but you have to work harder at it because the boat wants to fall off because it does not have the effect of the main to offset that effect.
Warren: This is a bit of an overkill explanation but here's what I mean. With a masthead rig the engine is the jib. First you raise the main and your cruising along and then you roll out the jig. The rolling out of the jib is like dropping it into second and flooring it. With a fractional rig it is the opposite. You roll out the jib and cruise along and then you raise the main and it is like dropping it into second and flooring it. So what I ment was if a mate has a fractional rig he can get away with sailing with the jib only. On a masthead rig it is still obviously doable but you have to work harder at it because the boat wants to fall off because it does not have the effect of the main to offset that effect.
Fairlead adjustments
Alan as usual is right on and has it right about fairlead adjustments on a masthead or fractional rig, especially with a masthead rig. You can not "set it an forget it". You can if you don't care about getting the performance out of your boat that she wants to give you. I've commented a million times that most beginner to intermediate boat I go on have the fairlead rusted in place!! They hav enever been moved and are like a broken clock that is right twice a day. They are right for some conditions but wrong all the rest of the time. The Garhauer adjustable system is the way to go. You can dial in your adjustment instead of pulling pins, which is hard to do under load. It all boils down to the fact that sailors (or everyone) will tend to do what is easy and won't do what is hard. Moving fairleads under load is hard. On most boats the adjustable distance on the track is less than 2' but from a performane standpoint that is a big distance and the difference of more than 1 knot of speed. Fairlead adjustment is really pretty easy. Your telltales will tell you which way and how far to go. That is why I spnd about 7 pages in my book explaining how to read tellales. Without the ability to read your telltales your lost from a performance standpoint. You can figure it out by trial and error but why waste your time when I've already outlined it in my book for you.
Alan as usual is right on and has it right about fairlead adjustments on a masthead or fractional rig, especially with a masthead rig. You can not "set it an forget it". You can if you don't care about getting the performance out of your boat that she wants to give you. I've commented a million times that most beginner to intermediate boat I go on have the fairlead rusted in place!! They hav enever been moved and are like a broken clock that is right twice a day. They are right for some conditions but wrong all the rest of the time. The Garhauer adjustable system is the way to go. You can dial in your adjustment instead of pulling pins, which is hard to do under load. It all boils down to the fact that sailors (or everyone) will tend to do what is easy and won't do what is hard. Moving fairleads under load is hard. On most boats the adjustable distance on the track is less than 2' but from a performane standpoint that is a big distance and the difference of more than 1 knot of speed. Fairlead adjustment is really pretty easy. Your telltales will tell you which way and how far to go. That is why I spnd about 7 pages in my book explaining how to read tellales. Without the ability to read your telltales your lost from a performance standpoint. You can figure it out by trial and error but why waste your time when I've already outlined it in my book for you.
Don, I have the opposite experience
perhaps things work out the opposite way down-under....
But seriously: I find that under main alone my Cat30 is very slow indeed, whilst under jib alone she is almost as fast as with both sails up, especially upwards of 15/18 knts true wind.I agree with your observation that the boat will trend to fall off - but only a bit: it is more like she will not point as well, but generally is ver easy to control. On the other hand, my experience in the past with a fractional rigged boat of a friend of mine was the opposite: she was a dog to sail under jib alone, but did nicely under main alone. I tend to sail under jib alone when shorthanded and in strong winds, especially if I have company on board that feels a bit uncomfortable when heeling (my wife...). I do fully agree with your observation re sequence of raising the sails: I always first raise the main (but precisely because the boat won't do much at that stage) so that I have plenty of time to unfurl the jib and play with the winches, before she really gets going. And when the wind picks up too much I simply drop the main and keep going on the jib. I guess that because the boat doesn't heel so much in stronger winds she preserves her speed, even if only under jib. And finally: I wish Garhauer were available in Australia - would like to get these adjustable fairleads at a more reasonable price than from Harken or Ronstan!
perhaps things work out the opposite way down-under....
But seriously: I find that under main alone my Cat30 is very slow indeed, whilst under jib alone she is almost as fast as with both sails up, especially upwards of 15/18 knts true wind.I agree with your observation that the boat will trend to fall off - but only a bit: it is more like she will not point as well, but generally is ver easy to control. On the other hand, my experience in the past with a fractional rigged boat of a friend of mine was the opposite: she was a dog to sail under jib alone, but did nicely under main alone. I tend to sail under jib alone when shorthanded and in strong winds, especially if I have company on board that feels a bit uncomfortable when heeling (my wife...). I do fully agree with your observation re sequence of raising the sails: I always first raise the main (but precisely because the boat won't do much at that stage) so that I have plenty of time to unfurl the jib and play with the winches, before she really gets going. And when the wind picks up too much I simply drop the main and keep going on the jib. I guess that because the boat doesn't heel so much in stronger winds she preserves her speed, even if only under jib. And finally: I wish Garhauer were available in Australia - would like to get these adjustable fairleads at a more reasonable price than from Harken or Ronstan!
Opposite experience
Edward (Sydney): I hope to visit your fine country one of these days. It is a great place to sail. I loved watching the America Cup. On Garhauer - I think they would ship to Australia. It would probably be a bit expensive compared to shipping in the US but the adjustable system does not weigh much. Call Garhauer and ask for Mark or Guido and tell them Don Guillette told you to call. Hopefully, they can help you. You will love their adjustable fairlead system. Your comments on sailing with the main or jib are exactly what I was talking about - on a masthead rig the engine is the jib and on a fractional the main is the engine.
Edward (Sydney): I hope to visit your fine country one of these days. It is a great place to sail. I loved watching the America Cup. On Garhauer - I think they would ship to Australia. It would probably be a bit expensive compared to shipping in the US but the adjustable system does not weigh much. Call Garhauer and ask for Mark or Guido and tell them Don Guillette told you to call. Hopefully, they can help you. You will love their adjustable fairlead system. Your comments on sailing with the main or jib are exactly what I was talking about - on a masthead rig the engine is the jib and on a fractional the main is the engine.
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