Recently I was sailing SF Bay with a friend on his 26ft. Skipper Marine. It was a stiff day, 25kt wind, and we were beating to Angle Island from a marina in Berkley. All canvas was in the air, jib and main, with no reefing. When I took the tiller it almost flung me overboard. My friend is 6-3, 230lb, and can wrestle bears. He said "the tiller is a b....., so hang on tight". I thought the tiller was going to snap. I asked if the keel was down and he assured me it was. Any suggestions as to the cause of this extreme pressure on the tudder / tiller, and what he can do to reduce ?
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I"ve seen it happen
I saw a 30 ft boat once that had the rudder mounted backwards. The owner thought it was natural because he bought the boat that way. Turned out the previous owner had made a new rudder and accidentally or in ignorance mounted it backwards so their was not enough leading edge under the boat and in advance of the pintles. Other than that I can think of only too much weather or lee helm due to mast or keel positioning.
I saw a 30 ft boat once that had the rudder mounted backwards. The owner thought it was natural because he bought the boat that way. Turned out the previous owner had made a new rudder and accidentally or in ignorance mounted it backwards so their was not enough leading edge under the boat and in advance of the pintles. Other than that I can think of only too much weather or lee helm due to mast or keel positioning.
Bad lee or bad weather helm
If the tiller wanted to go to leeward, then it sounds like you have some really bad weather helm. However, if the tiller wanted to go to weather, then it sounds like you have some really bad lee helm. Due to the wind velocity and that your boat has a centerboard that lowers, I offhand suspect the former of these two situations. In this case, you may need to reduce your mast rake, that is get the center of effort of the main sail more forward so that the bow of the boat will go more to lee. Further, assuming you have a mast rig set up, that is one where the forestay attaches to the top of the mast, try reefing the main next time. This will reduce the sail area aft that is kicking your boat into the wind without greatly sacrficing boat speed by reefing the jib.
If the tiller wanted to go to leeward, then it sounds like you have some really bad weather helm. However, if the tiller wanted to go to weather, then it sounds like you have some really bad lee helm. Due to the wind velocity and that your boat has a centerboard that lowers, I offhand suspect the former of these two situations. In this case, you may need to reduce your mast rake, that is get the center of effort of the main sail more forward so that the bow of the boat will go more to lee. Further, assuming you have a mast rig set up, that is one where the forestay attaches to the top of the mast, try reefing the main next time. This will reduce the sail area aft that is kicking your boat into the wind without greatly sacrficing boat speed by reefing the jib.
Weather Helm
I'll risk a guess that the boat wanted to round up into the wind. You may find more help on this over at the sail trim forum - but here are ideas: 1. Too much sail up for conditions, too much heel can/will create weather helm. I'd reef the main first here, though I am guessing w/o knowing how big the jib/genny was. 2. Rudder rake - if it is a trailerable -removable or beaching type kick up rudder - then too much aft rake will unbalance the rudder and cause a hard helm. 3. Main sail sheeted in too tight. Ease down the traveller - or if no traveller - set the vang and ease the mainsheet. 4. You could play with the halyard or cunningham tension, and the vang/mainsheet to induce twist to spill air off the top of the sail to ease theheeling and the helm - but your problem sounds more serious than these items. 5. Keel goes down too far and moves center of resistance forward? Is there an adjustment or wear on the stops? Don Guilette over on the sail trim forum on this website will probably have more good advice to give you on sail trim. Something seems way out of wack though - I sailed some pretty good winds last Sunday and the J22 that I was sailing on was so well balanced that there was only a small (desirable) amount of weather helm - not a heavy tiller at all. [edit note: I had not seen the post confirming weather helm as it was posted while I was writing this reply - you may ignore the first sentence]
I'll risk a guess that the boat wanted to round up into the wind. You may find more help on this over at the sail trim forum - but here are ideas: 1. Too much sail up for conditions, too much heel can/will create weather helm. I'd reef the main first here, though I am guessing w/o knowing how big the jib/genny was. 2. Rudder rake - if it is a trailerable -removable or beaching type kick up rudder - then too much aft rake will unbalance the rudder and cause a hard helm. 3. Main sail sheeted in too tight. Ease down the traveller - or if no traveller - set the vang and ease the mainsheet. 4. You could play with the halyard or cunningham tension, and the vang/mainsheet to induce twist to spill air off the top of the sail to ease theheeling and the helm - but your problem sounds more serious than these items. 5. Keel goes down too far and moves center of resistance forward? Is there an adjustment or wear on the stops? Don Guilette over on the sail trim forum on this website will probably have more good advice to give you on sail trim. Something seems way out of wack though - I sailed some pretty good winds last Sunday and the J22 that I was sailing on was so well balanced that there was only a small (desirable) amount of weather helm - not a heavy tiller at all. [edit note: I had not seen the post confirming weather helm as it was posted while I was writing this reply - you may ignore the first sentence]
Oldcat
I understand all your points except item #2. I'm familar with mast rake but not rudder rake. Please explain. I own a Mac26 with a kickup rudder and this may help me also. Many thanks. I email the responses to my friend which is now in Hong Kong for 6 months, but he will appreciate. Thanks to all.
I understand all your points except item #2. I'm familar with mast rake but not rudder rake. Please explain. I own a Mac26 with a kickup rudder and this may help me also. Many thanks. I email the responses to my friend which is now in Hong Kong for 6 months, but he will appreciate. Thanks to all.
Weather helm
Is the answer It definitely sounds like you had too much sail for the conditions. Moderation is the key
Is the answer It definitely sounds like you had too much sail for the conditions. Moderation is the key
Rudder Rake
Most sailors won't understand rudder rake for the simple reason that their boats don't have pivoting (beaching) rudders. Most 26 foot boats don't - these are common on smaller boats like catamarans. But, some trailerable monohulls like the new Hunter 25 have them as well. I mentioned it because it is possible - not because it is likely - unless you have this type of rudder. If the rudder pivots upwards for trailering or beaching - then it is a possible cause if it does not pivot far enough - on my NACRA I filed a little material from the rudders to get them even and the helm balanced properly. I do agree with Charlie - too much sail up for the conditions. Sail again - in lighter air or with less sail up - get heel less than 15 deg. Change one thing at a time - work on the sail trim and reefing issues (heeling) first - if you still have significant weather helm - more than 3 degrees of tiller angle - then pursue the rudder, keel and rig. Don Guilette (Sail Trim Forum)will be able to help you a lot on the sail trim side of it - I think that you should start your own thread over there to get maximum response. Still - first thing to do - sail the boat flatter - see how much of the problem goes away.
Most sailors won't understand rudder rake for the simple reason that their boats don't have pivoting (beaching) rudders. Most 26 foot boats don't - these are common on smaller boats like catamarans. But, some trailerable monohulls like the new Hunter 25 have them as well. I mentioned it because it is possible - not because it is likely - unless you have this type of rudder. If the rudder pivots upwards for trailering or beaching - then it is a possible cause if it does not pivot far enough - on my NACRA I filed a little material from the rudders to get them even and the helm balanced properly. I do agree with Charlie - too much sail up for the conditions. Sail again - in lighter air or with less sail up - get heel less than 15 deg. Change one thing at a time - work on the sail trim and reefing issues (heeling) first - if you still have significant weather helm - more than 3 degrees of tiller angle - then pursue the rudder, keel and rig. Don Guilette (Sail Trim Forum)will be able to help you a lot on the sail trim side of it - I think that you should start your own thread over there to get maximum response. Still - first thing to do - sail the boat flatter - see how much of the problem goes away.
too much sail!
Roger, you have too much sail up for these conditions between the bay bridge and angel island! Chris Drifter II Coyote Point
Roger, you have too much sail up for these conditions between the bay bridge and angel island! Chris Drifter II Coyote Point
way too much sail
My boat (based in Alameda) is 37 ft and 18,000 pounds, and when the wind in the slot hits 25 knots (every summer afternoon, it seems) it is past time to reef. You were in ther windiest part of the Bay at the windiest time of year. It's fun, but it can get hairy when the ebb tide goes against the wind. Your friend probably likes to sail with the rail in the water, and he is in the right place for that. It certainly is exhilerating, if a bit wet and cold. But if you want to try for a little more speed, and a more comfortable ride, put in one or more reefs. On my cutter the normal summer configuration is a single reef in the main, and furl the jib when the wind gets over 25, leaving the staysail up. It still does max hull speed, and is easier to control. Too much weather helm and the speed drops off, plus I tend to blow down toward the contruction site below the bridge. Another few weeks and the wind will drop back to an easier ride. Sanders
My boat (based in Alameda) is 37 ft and 18,000 pounds, and when the wind in the slot hits 25 knots (every summer afternoon, it seems) it is past time to reef. You were in ther windiest part of the Bay at the windiest time of year. It's fun, but it can get hairy when the ebb tide goes against the wind. Your friend probably likes to sail with the rail in the water, and he is in the right place for that. It certainly is exhilerating, if a bit wet and cold. But if you want to try for a little more speed, and a more comfortable ride, put in one or more reefs. On my cutter the normal summer configuration is a single reef in the main, and furl the jib when the wind gets over 25, leaving the staysail up. It still does max hull speed, and is easier to control. Too much weather helm and the speed drops off, plus I tend to blow down toward the contruction site below the bridge. Another few weeks and the wind will drop back to an easier ride. Sanders
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