Extracting ethanol from gasoline

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RedRex

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Oct 9, 2008
14
hunter 25 barnegat nj
I'm given to understand that ethanol can be extracted from gas by addition of water. Although the quantities are unclear to me, one apparently adds water to the gas,stirs it or shakes it until well blended, then allows it to separate. Then one would draw clean fuel from the top of the now ethanol contaminated water. Anyone ever hear of this,or perhaps tried it?
 
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Mar 26, 2011
3,717
Corsair F-24 MK I Deale, MD
I'm given to understand that ethanol can be extracted from gas by addition of water. Although the quantities are unclear to me, one apparently adds water to the gas,stirs it or shakes it until well blended, then allows it to separate. Then one would draw clean fuel from the top of the now ethanol contaminated water. Anyone ever hear of this,or perhaps tried it?
Yes it can be done, but it's not the right answer.

a. The resulting fuel would be very low octane.
b. The water you separate will be hazardous waste (benzene contamination).
c. E10 works fine if you keep it dry. No deck fill leaks. Keep the tank full to minimize breathing. And try one of these:http://www.h2out.com/products/h2out-avd/h2out-avd3-0. They really do work.
d. Ethanol corrosion can be minimized by keeping it dry and by using a storage additive containing corrosion inhibitors like Stabil, CRC Phase Guard 4, or Mercury Quick-Stor (some additives are only for carb cleaning and won't help).

Practical Sailor is running test on some things now, and there is a bunch of stuff on my blog. Search "e10", "ethanol", and "vent filter".

Also, running the engine enough to keep the fuel fresh helps. Sailors really don't run them enough.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
You can remove ethanol from gasoline just by burning. Pour it out into a large shallow steel pan and toss in a lighted match. The ethanol will burn right out. ;)
 

kenn

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Apr 18, 2009
1,271
CL Sandpiper 565 Toronto
If possible, try to find gas that doesn't contain ethanol. Here in Ontario, Shell's top-of-the-line "V-Power" gas has no ethanol, according to the pumps. I've been using it for the last few years for our outboard, with gas stabilant, and it seems to last longer without "going bad". When I disassembled my carb last year, it was very clean.
 
Dec 10, 2010
24
Starwind 19 Lake Perry
Excellent answer Ross.

Works every time....:)


You can remove ethanol from gasoline just by burning. Pour it out into a large shallow steel pan and toss in a lighted match. The ethanol will burn right out. ;)
 

Tom J

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Sep 30, 2008
2,325
Catalina 310 Quincy, MA
Some marinas in Florida offer ethanol free gas. Haven't seen any in Massachusetts, yet. Knowing Mass., it's probably illegal to sell gas without ethanol, even in marinas.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Could somebody explain why outboard engines are so fussy about their fuel when the Stihl chain saws happily run on automotive gasoline. I know many arborists that cheerfully climb high into trees with small chainsaws that start on the first pull everytime and feed them automotive gas. The same applies to the hundreds of weed whackers in use everyday. I have an ancient Lawnboy mower that I feed automotive gas and 2 cycle oil and what is left over at the end of the season is used the next season. I change the spark plug every ten years whether it needs it or not. When I finish with it I shove it into the shed and when I need it I get it out and push the primer bulb and start it.
 
Nov 23, 2011
2,023
MacGregor 26D London Ontario Canada
Good question Ross. What is it with ethanol that it is so unwanted in outboard fuel.
Last week I tried to start my 7.5hp and it was a no go with last years gas. (Works in the weed eater.) So I went and got fresh gas (Actually the super no ethanol stuff from Shell. Just because Shell was close and I wanted more bang for the $.) ($30 for 5gal!)
Mixed the gas and oil primed and 3 pulls and it was running!
Does the lack of ethanol help keep that film out to the carb and keep it cleaner?
 
Jun 14, 2011
277
Hunter 22 Fin Keel Lake Martin
Boat engines operate in a very humid environment maybe? who knows... But the problems have gotten worse since ethanol came into use!
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
What is more humid than mowing a lawn on a misting day?
 

Kordie

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Aug 7, 2011
144
Beneteau 393 Cruising Baja
Ethanol added petrol is sold here in Australia but signs on the pump warn about it not being suitable for light aircraft or marine engines.

I was told that the bio additives don't keep well. I know my boats only tend to run through a full tank on an annual basis, in which case the ethanol fuel would have significant deterioration.

That's about all I am aware of.
 
Mar 26, 2011
3,717
Corsair F-24 MK I Deale, MD
Could somebody explain why outboard engines are so fussy about their fuel when the Stihl chain saws happily run on automotive gasoline. I know many arborists that cheerfully climb high into trees with small chainsaws that start on the first pull everytime and feed them automotive gas. The same applies to the hundreds of weed whackers in use everyday. I have an ancient Lawnboy mower that I feed automotive gas and 2 cycle oil and what is left over at the end of the season is used the next season. I change the spark plug every ten years whether it needs it or not. When I finish with it I shove it into the shed and when I need it I get it out and push the primer bulb and start it.
Is a puzzlement.

My last 2-storke was like the proverbial chainsaw; abused an utterly reliable. My current 2-stroke was terrible until I learned to close the tank vent EVERY time. I'm pretty sure it was phase separating every time we got enough rain. Since then, after a cleaning 2 years ago, it is perfect.

4-strokes always seem fussier.

I wonder if part of the difference is in the nature of the tank vent. Boats have free vents, but chainsaws and weedeaters must have a vent that seals when tipped. Perhaps that reduces fuel evaporation.

Also, chainsaw carbs work on a different principle:
http://www.autonopedia.org/crafts_and_technology/Tools/Chainsaw_Guide/Chainsaw_Guide_9.html
There is no float nor any free surface; A chainsaw wouldn't function, upside down and everything else, with a float-based carb.

Makes you wonder if this wouldn't make sense for small outboards.
 
Mar 26, 2011
3,717
Corsair F-24 MK I Deale, MD
What is more humid than mowing a lawn on a misting day?
I've been running a test program on this subject area and thus many things are becoming more clear.

Though the wet lawn may be humid, it is non-condensing. That is, there is no dew falling and there is no dew in the air, excepting some ephemeral mist that quickly evaporates. Second, the carb is mounted to the engine and is warmer than the surounding air; it cannot condense or absorb water during operation, nor can any other engine.

In all of my tests, fuel and gasoline water gain ONLY happens at night in fog/heavy dew conditions. Primarily, this is also a Spring/Fall effect, and not so much a Summer/Winter thing.
 
Oct 30, 2011
542
klidescope 30t norfolk
outboard hard starting

I remove all fuel every time I leave my outboard for a long period of time It's a nissan 3.5 so I just turn over pour gas out of tank and then start till run out of gas . then mix fresh gas next time I use . I use the left over out board gas for the weed eater
 

Gunni

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Mar 16, 2010
5,937
Beneteau 411 Oceanis Annapolis
I saw the change in motorcycle carbs years ago. The newer, lean-running low emission carbs have very small jet passages that easily crud up. The ethanol seems to gather water in the carb bowl where it corrodes the aluminum allow bowl and creates a Al - precipitate that lodges in the jet passages. I fixed the motorcycle carb by re-jetting with a off-road racing jet kit.

In the end, I believe you need to be completely familiar with carb teardown techniques. Luckily my Tohatsu carb can be removed, cleaned and reassembled in 10 minutes. I wouldn't think for a moment that I could clean my guns by spraying some gunk in the barrel and receiver, carbs are the same deal.
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
I remove all fuel every time I leave my outboard for a long period of time It's a nissan 3.5 so I just turn over pour gas out of tank and then start till run out of gas . then mix fresh gas next time I use . I use the left over out board gas for the weed eater
Your weed eater has essentially the same (or smaller version) Walbro type of dipharam impulse carb thats used in chainsaws, etc.
Water contaminated or separated bi-phased fuel easily 'dry out' through the small vents and passages that connect to the 'open to atmosphere' venturi section in such carbs, - the small series of 'idle jet passages', etc. in such carbs.
The Walbro type uses the gasketing of the diaphragm chamber as its check valves (small 'flaps' in the diaphragm gasket) ... and with 'gumming' fuel the 'flaps' are the components that get 'stuck' and 'gummed up' first.
In ALL of these small carbs and especially those with multiple teeny idle ports, its always 'best' to drain (blow out) the carb, then prior to storage for greater than 60-90 days, rinse out the internals with Isopropyl alcohol to prevent gumming up of the small passages and especially the 'flap' type check valves that are integral with the 'gaskets'. ALL small carburetors will benefit from 'blow out' and rinse-out with IPA when storing for long periods.

Anyone can 'separate' ethanol/water from gasoline, easy to do if you have the knowledge of vacuum distillation using all *explosion proof* components ... the gasoline is the first of the fractions to come off, but that vacuum distilled gasoline is mostly normal 'heptane' (Octane = "O") and you then have to add an octane equivalent back to the blend to slow down the flame speed of the heptane ... better, cheaper, and much SAFER to simply use only fresh ethanolated gasoline, and simply use it in your automobile after its over 30-40 days 'old'. If you dont have the 'specific' knowledge and expertise ... its just too damn dangerous (and highly illegal) for a DIYer to separate ETOH from 'gasoline'.


The question for the immediate future remains when the government imposes E15, which is definitely not going to be not 'compatible' for small and fractional HP 'engines', and 'older cars too' ... the indicators are that government will ultimately not allow sale of anything less than E15 and it will simply follow that anything requiring E10, or less, will simply be rendered 'obsolete' unless one goes to the additional expense of retrofit carbs, etc. with larger 'jets' and 'passages', etc. that deliver the correct fuel/air ratio for E15, etc.

The reason the modern autos dont gum up with E10 is: 1. the fuel pumps are high pressure 'recirculation' type pumps (fuel injection) and action of the continuous pumping 'chops up' and keeps the dropped out phases 'emulsified' 2. automobiles have closed storage systems (tanks, etc.) -- charcoal adsorption canisters, etc. instead of atmospheric 'vents'.

The remedy for all this is 'political'.
 
Sep 25, 2008
1,096
CS 30 Toronto
It appears the most Honda has a fuel shut off on the motor. May be other OB does too. (Mine 2hp Honda has one). You can shut it off and ran the engine until dry. Close all vents and no problem after that. There is nothing left in the bowl to gum up.
 
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