I'm experiencing excessive weather helm on my Hunter 280. Any thoughts on how to reduce these effects would be appreciated.
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Bill O'Donovan
Too much wind
If you can see substantial whitecaps, it may be blowing higher than 15 mph. Time to either reef the main or pull in the jib. Either manueuver works fine, and you'll still get plenty of power without so much helm. Don't believe that stuff that only sissies reef, and only real men smoke reefer.
If you can see substantial whitecaps, it may be blowing higher than 15 mph. Time to either reef the main or pull in the jib. Either manueuver works fine, and you'll still get plenty of power without so much helm. Don't believe that stuff that only sissies reef, and only real men smoke reefer.
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Ed Ruiz
Move the CF forward
If you think of a sailboat as a dart and the sails as the feathers on it, then it might be easier to visualize why weather-helm exists, and what you can do to reduce or eliminate it. On most sailboats, the center of ratation (CR) is usually about 1/3rd the length of the boat from the bow. On some sloops it might even be directly under the mast. When only the mainsail is raised, the center of force (CF) is behind the CR, which is exactly like a dart with all the feathers on the back end of the dart. When you throw that dart, the pointed end will always be first to the target. Sailing with only the mainsail will cause the bow to point into the wind unless held from doing so by the helm. When you sail with only the jib, the CF may be in front of the CR. This will likely lead to lee-helm, as the boat will rotate around its CR and head downwind. It would be like putting the feathers on the pointed end of the dart. That dart would hit its target backend first. :^( With both sails up, the CF should be closer to the CR, but may still be slightly behind it. That usually leads to slight weather-helm, which is a good thing. If you still have too much weather helm, then you will likely have to adjust your sails so that the mainsail contributes less to the total CF, and/or the jib contributes more. Most folks will either move the traveler leeward (allowing more wind to spill off the main or reef the main (which reduces the amount of sail area and thus the amount of force acting on it). I hope this info helps. BTW, the best way to learn what works is to experiment. I'm still in the experimental phase, and probably will be for some time to come. ;^) ~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~
If you think of a sailboat as a dart and the sails as the feathers on it, then it might be easier to visualize why weather-helm exists, and what you can do to reduce or eliminate it. On most sailboats, the center of ratation (CR) is usually about 1/3rd the length of the boat from the bow. On some sloops it might even be directly under the mast. When only the mainsail is raised, the center of force (CF) is behind the CR, which is exactly like a dart with all the feathers on the back end of the dart. When you throw that dart, the pointed end will always be first to the target. Sailing with only the mainsail will cause the bow to point into the wind unless held from doing so by the helm. When you sail with only the jib, the CF may be in front of the CR. This will likely lead to lee-helm, as the boat will rotate around its CR and head downwind. It would be like putting the feathers on the pointed end of the dart. That dart would hit its target backend first. :^( With both sails up, the CF should be closer to the CR, but may still be slightly behind it. That usually leads to slight weather-helm, which is a good thing. If you still have too much weather helm, then you will likely have to adjust your sails so that the mainsail contributes less to the total CF, and/or the jib contributes more. Most folks will either move the traveler leeward (allowing more wind to spill off the main or reef the main (which reduces the amount of sail area and thus the amount of force acting on it). I hope this info helps. BTW, the best way to learn what works is to experiment. I'm still in the experimental phase, and probably will be for some time to come. ;^) ~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~
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Mike Collins
weather helm
I have a h235, and quickly found that early reefing covers up a multitude of sins. The big joke around here is to watch the hunters head up whenever the wind picks up. Reefing and balancing the sails will have the biggest effect on weather helm that I've seen. The h235 has only one mainsail reefing point, but it's a big one. I use the roller reefing on the jib to balance the main, and the tiller feels like it has power steering! Went out with our resident trim expert, and the difference was like night and day. Hope this helps. Mike
I have a h235, and quickly found that early reefing covers up a multitude of sins. The big joke around here is to watch the hunters head up whenever the wind picks up. Reefing and balancing the sails will have the biggest effect on weather helm that I've seen. The h235 has only one mainsail reefing point, but it's a big one. I use the roller reefing on the jib to balance the main, and the tiller feels like it has power steering! Went out with our resident trim expert, and the difference was like night and day. Hope this helps. Mike
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Henry Weber
Reduce weather helm
It also helps to open the mainsail leach. Move the traveler to windward. Henry
It also helps to open the mainsail leach. Move the traveler to windward. Henry
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Mike
Very nice explanation, Ed
I appreciate your clear picture of the physical forces. It makes thinking through the trimming much easier.
I appreciate your clear picture of the physical forces. It makes thinking through the trimming much easier.
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Phil D.
Thanks to all!
Thanks to all for the advice. I agree whole-heartedly that sailing is one continuous learning experience. Happy sailing ~~~/_ Phil S/V ALBA
Thanks to all for the advice. I agree whole-heartedly that sailing is one continuous learning experience. Happy sailing ~~~/_ Phil S/V ALBA
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Doug T.
Mast rake
Another way to move the CF forward while sailing with the standard sail plan (full main & full jib) is to retune the rig and move the mast rake further forward. Just changing the mast rake by a few inches can make a big differece.
Another way to move the CF forward while sailing with the standard sail plan (full main & full jib) is to retune the rig and move the mast rake further forward. Just changing the mast rake by a few inches can make a big differece.
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David Foster
Actions to reduce weather helm
Here is a post I just made to another thread on this subject: I understand these actions to reduce weather helm: - New sails. Replacing the baggy main on our '77 h27 was the single most important move we made. (Probably not a problem on your newer boat - but it's worth while to have a sailmaker look at your sails.) - Right sails. We use a cruising spinnaker in light air, then unroll a 110 when the winds mount. - Timely reefing of the main. - Sail tuning. Getting the traveler right helps heel and weather helm. Flattening the main also helps (main sheet and/or vang, outhaul, and halyard.) Our new main is loose-footed, and I think this makes tuning easier. With the genny sheets led outside of the shrouds, the sheeting angle of the jib/jenny is over 20 degrees (on our h27). It is useless (and causes heel and weather helm) to set the traveler to give a much tighter angle of attack to the main. - Rig tuning. More rake gives more weather helm by moving the sail plan aft. Less rake means less weather helm. About 3-4 degrees of rake supposedly keeps the main perpendicular to the slight downdraft on the wind on the water, but variations to balance the rig seem more important to me. - Sail more relaxing courses. If I'm day-sailing, I choose reaching courses for the best crew comfort, and good speed. When we are cruising, we relax and wait for the right wind - usually to get to the next destination on a reach. Sometimes we change destinations for the same reason. Whether day-sailing, racing, or cruising, the excessive rudder needed to keep an unbalanced boat (another expression for weather helm) on course slows you down considerably. A larger rudder will just slow you even more. So I encourage you to work on balancing the sails, tuning, and rig rather than cobbling the rudder. David Lady Lillie
Here is a post I just made to another thread on this subject: I understand these actions to reduce weather helm: - New sails. Replacing the baggy main on our '77 h27 was the single most important move we made. (Probably not a problem on your newer boat - but it's worth while to have a sailmaker look at your sails.) - Right sails. We use a cruising spinnaker in light air, then unroll a 110 when the winds mount. - Timely reefing of the main. - Sail tuning. Getting the traveler right helps heel and weather helm. Flattening the main also helps (main sheet and/or vang, outhaul, and halyard.) Our new main is loose-footed, and I think this makes tuning easier. With the genny sheets led outside of the shrouds, the sheeting angle of the jib/jenny is over 20 degrees (on our h27). It is useless (and causes heel and weather helm) to set the traveler to give a much tighter angle of attack to the main. - Rig tuning. More rake gives more weather helm by moving the sail plan aft. Less rake means less weather helm. About 3-4 degrees of rake supposedly keeps the main perpendicular to the slight downdraft on the wind on the water, but variations to balance the rig seem more important to me. - Sail more relaxing courses. If I'm day-sailing, I choose reaching courses for the best crew comfort, and good speed. When we are cruising, we relax and wait for the right wind - usually to get to the next destination on a reach. Sometimes we change destinations for the same reason. Whether day-sailing, racing, or cruising, the excessive rudder needed to keep an unbalanced boat (another expression for weather helm) on course slows you down considerably. A larger rudder will just slow you even more. So I encourage you to work on balancing the sails, tuning, and rig rather than cobbling the rudder. David Lady Lillie
Causes of weather helm.
I think Mr Foster is right on the mark (as usual) with his points about weather helm. A lot of people underestimate the power of the main and it seems to be the last sail replaced when they go shabby. It's always headsails, headsails, headsails (like putting vinyl siding on the house that needs a new roof). A baggy main is nearly ineffective and will create a multitude of subtle nightmares for you. That said-- I notice many people sailing under the main alone. Maybe the trouble of reefing it is so much a hassle to them that they'd rather simply crank in the roller-furling jib to reduce sail. All reductions in headsail area will increase weather helm. Try tacking under main alone to see what I mean. If anyone is out there sailing with the jib partly rolled in, he will have weather helm and that's it. The same will happen if your headsail is TOO BIG-- all the area of a big genoa aft of the mast is contributing to the main's area and thus the weather helm, especially on a tight tack. Try the same point of wind with the 110 first before crying 'weather helm'. The worst possible answer anyone wants to hear is that the boat is poorly set-up or designed. Rig tuning and sail trim will only correct such flaws so far. If you must reef the main under moderate working-sail conditions merely to get the helm under control it may be indicative of an ill-balanced boat. This, unfortunately, is where you should have done your homework before purchase. As an aside-- I don't know what Mr Ruiz meant by 'CR' and 'center of ratation'. The two geometric points to consider for boat-balance issues are the CE (centre of effort, geometric centre of the sail plan) and the CLR (centre of lateral resistance, geometric centre of the underbody, including about 25 percent of the rudder). The CLR is NOT the same as the centre of gravity, so forget that. On a properly-designed cruising sailboat the CE will be 15 percent of the designed-waterline length FORWARD of the CLR. This imposes a lee helm, which goes away as the boat moves-- its forward motion sort of cancels out the tendency to leeward since in effect it is always 'leaving its weight behind'. That is the simplest way I can put it. And remember there is no 'about' in yacht design; the best designers' 'best guesses' are the product of education and experience and ought not to be equated with either sterile computer data or the guesswork of wannabe designers (as some so-called reputable boatbuilders are using today). Boats are designed to mathematical formulae-- those who understand and use these formulae produce valuable boats; those who misinterpret or disregard them tend to market mid-boom sheeting, Bimini tops, water ballast, and sliding bulb keels on 2000-lb trailerable boats. JC 2
I think Mr Foster is right on the mark (as usual) with his points about weather helm. A lot of people underestimate the power of the main and it seems to be the last sail replaced when they go shabby. It's always headsails, headsails, headsails (like putting vinyl siding on the house that needs a new roof). A baggy main is nearly ineffective and will create a multitude of subtle nightmares for you. That said-- I notice many people sailing under the main alone. Maybe the trouble of reefing it is so much a hassle to them that they'd rather simply crank in the roller-furling jib to reduce sail. All reductions in headsail area will increase weather helm. Try tacking under main alone to see what I mean. If anyone is out there sailing with the jib partly rolled in, he will have weather helm and that's it. The same will happen if your headsail is TOO BIG-- all the area of a big genoa aft of the mast is contributing to the main's area and thus the weather helm, especially on a tight tack. Try the same point of wind with the 110 first before crying 'weather helm'. The worst possible answer anyone wants to hear is that the boat is poorly set-up or designed. Rig tuning and sail trim will only correct such flaws so far. If you must reef the main under moderate working-sail conditions merely to get the helm under control it may be indicative of an ill-balanced boat. This, unfortunately, is where you should have done your homework before purchase. As an aside-- I don't know what Mr Ruiz meant by 'CR' and 'center of ratation'. The two geometric points to consider for boat-balance issues are the CE (centre of effort, geometric centre of the sail plan) and the CLR (centre of lateral resistance, geometric centre of the underbody, including about 25 percent of the rudder). The CLR is NOT the same as the centre of gravity, so forget that. On a properly-designed cruising sailboat the CE will be 15 percent of the designed-waterline length FORWARD of the CLR. This imposes a lee helm, which goes away as the boat moves-- its forward motion sort of cancels out the tendency to leeward since in effect it is always 'leaving its weight behind'. That is the simplest way I can put it. And remember there is no 'about' in yacht design; the best designers' 'best guesses' are the product of education and experience and ought not to be equated with either sterile computer data or the guesswork of wannabe designers (as some so-called reputable boatbuilders are using today). Boats are designed to mathematical formulae-- those who understand and use these formulae produce valuable boats; those who misinterpret or disregard them tend to market mid-boom sheeting, Bimini tops, water ballast, and sliding bulb keels on 2000-lb trailerable boats. JC 2
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