Excessive weather helm?

[foolproof]

Hello all:

I have been sailing my 1976 tall rig nearly every weekend this summer, and loving every second of it!

My question is this: In fairly strong breezes, say 15-20 knots, the boat heels and points well, but seems to have what might be considered excessive weather helm. I can hold the bow off of the wind a bit, but I have to turn the wheel about 90 - 120 degrees to do it, and I'm sure that's hurting the speed of the boat.

If you were me (be thankful you're not!) what would you do to lighten the weather helm, or would you do anything at all? I know a little bit is OK - does mine seem to be too much? Like I said, I can keep the boat from rounding up in all but the strongest gusts, but it takes quite a bit of effort to do it.

Thanks for any and all advice.

 

[Joe]

Reduce the pressure on the mainsail. Flatten it and twist it, or reef it.

 

[dawg2]

Reduce the pressure on the mainsail. Flatten it and twist it, or reef it.

x2.

 

[dj2210]

Also Mast rake can change the weather helm.
On my C27 I put on a new main (old was pretty baggie) and traveler and it made a big difference in handling. New sails are nice!

 

[foolproof]

I'd love to get a new main...maybe for Christmas.

Which way would I go with the mast to reduce weather helm? I have seen different opinions on this. For a tall rig Catalina 30, which way would I move the mast?

 

[dj2210]

From UK Halsey's website
< The first job is to set the rake of the mast. If you are putting the mast in the boat for the first time, set the mast so that it leans back a few inches. More rake adds weather helm. Rake is achieved by moving the butt of the mast forward in the step or the mast aft at the partners. If you’ve been sailing the boat and the helm feels right, leave the rake alone.>

So if you want to reduce weather helm the top of the mast should move forward

 

[Don Guillette]

Foolproof: It is very difficult to determine the cause of a problem by reading 3 paragraphs but folks on this site and on the SAIL TRIM FORUM seem to do it all the time. If a mate, who understood sail trim, was on your boat he could probably determine the problem very quickly.

Since I don't know how your sail trim was set up let me explain the couple of things that cause weather helm.

The first cause is excessive heeling. The submerged part of the hull creates a force that wants to turn the boat to weather. Additionally, when you exert force on the rudder you're inducing drag and slowing the boat. Reduce heel and you reduce weather helm.

The second cause is mast RAKE (not to be confused with mast bend). The boat thinks you picked up the mast and moved it aft.

Why does this happen? In very simple, non scientific terms here's what the boat is reacting to. There are scientific names for the following stuff but let's keep it simple. The boat has a exact center point -- like a pivit point. Additionally, the mainsail has a exact center point and this is important especially with a mainsail the size you have on a tall rig. Both the center point of the boat and the mainsail have to be vertically in line. If the center point (DRAFT POSITION) of the main is aft of the center point of the boat, you get weather helm. Move the draft position forward and you reduce weather helm.

Sail trim is very simple to deal with once you understand DRAFT DEPTH, DRAFT POSITION, TWIST and ANGLE OF ATTACK. If a mate does not underatand those four elements, sail trim will never make any sense.

 

[mortyd]

why in heavens name are you sailing an unreefed tall rig in 15-20 knots? and don, your charts and book work great but not unreefed in 15-20 knots.

 

[foolproof]

The boat does heel a bit in 15 to 20 knots, but not so much that the gun'l is in the water. Maybe I will try to reef next time and see how that helps. Maybe I'm letting her heel too much?

A little background: I had a Catalina 25 swing keel boat, and it used to scare me a little in gusty winds. By comparison, my 30 is pretty solid in the wind, to the point that I don't get nervous at all when it starts to heel. Instead, I feel like I can let it go to leward a bit and still be stable. Maybe what I need to do is reef the main, and see if it does better flatter. It will take some of the fun away, but it might actually sail better.

 

[Don Guillette]

foolproof: Pop on over to the SAIL TRIM FORUM where I used your situation as a topic. Check out the answer from RichH who is the scientific guru 0on the forum.

 

[Spindrift NH]

This is my first season with Spindrift and I reef if the wind is above 15 knots but only 'cause the dogs don't like to heel over much and my boat is set up too much to weather, something I plan to fix in the fall. I've found that the boat really picks up speed above 10 knots but as it increases so too does my need to add rudder to compensate for the weather helm, to the point that I'm slowing the boat down. If I can't back the boat off the wind prior to a gust, it will turn uncontrollably to weather. I understand that that is a normal response but it seems to me that it happens far too aggressively in a moderate gust. I think the boat should sail well at full sail in 15 knots winds if adjusted properly.

 

[Don Guillette]

spindrift NH: you're right, a C30 should easily sail nicely in 15 knots. I've raced at the C30 National event in Santa Cruz in 45 knots with no reef with no problem but our sail trim was pretty good and we were fighting for 1st -- we came in second but not by very much.

Here's what's happening -- as the wind pipes up up it's pushing your DRAFT POSITION aft and that's ONE of the causes of of weather helm. You have to use the sail trim controls for the main and jib to bring the DP forward. That's why GOD put all the sail trim controls for the main and jib on the boat -- to adjust for the things that are happening to the sails.

Also, in a gust, the easiest way to get the boat back on it's feet is to drop the traveler. After the gust passes just move the traveler back to it's origingal position.

 

[mortyd]

yeah, but don, a respectful question, how do you know what the same boat would have done in 45 knots with a reef or two?

 

[Don Guillette]

We'd have come in 3rd or 4th!!!

The other boat had everything up and we had to also. It was so tense I (mainsheet/traveler trimmer) didn't dare touch anything to improve the trim because I was afraid I'd make a mistake and it would slow us down. This race was a feature article in the MAINSHEET magazine. The title was "who are those guys" from the Butch Cassidy movie. We thought we had the race bagged and they came out of nowhere. We were so close together you could walk across the boats. The skipper, Max Munger (Sec't of the C30 Association), tried to move as close as we could to "scrape paint" like the NASCAR guys do but the other skipper never blinked an eye. It was a photo finish, that's how close it was.

It was the most exciting race I've ever been in. If I never raced again it would be OK because with that race "I've been there".

One boat was dismated and two others lost their mainsails. Actaully, it was a bit crazy and costly for the owners but what the hay, that's what racing is all about.

 

[Joe]

Again......... I am agreeing with MortyD ..... you're overpowered. The rail in the water comment was my first clue.

 

[Bob4203]

[FONT=&quot] On Lake Lanier, Georgia where the winds can change direction suddenly and pickup quickly, on a good sailing day (blowin over 12+) weather helm can be a challenge. Reefing you main is not the only option to reduce heeling forces, it is the last of several options to reducing the power.

The first step to ensure that you have flattened the mainsail appropriately for the wind strength therefore you must apply maximum halyard and outhaul. As mentioned, a flat sail will greatly reduce power.

The second step is to lower the traveler to leeward to help reduce forces on the main. This will help spill much of the wind.

If you still have excessive heel, then reduce the mainsail with a reef. As your boat heels beyond the optimum point, you''ll start going to leeward even before your boat becomes hard to manage due to excessive weather helm. Got to love the marconi rig fail safe design.

If all else fails , LET GO OF THE HELM and stay in the irons for awhile, enjoy a brew and watch all others wrestle with it!
[/FONT]

 

[mortyd]

bob, the only thing wrong with your way is that reefing can easily be the most dificult thing to do under way while un-reefing is much easier.

 

[Stu Jackson]

[FONT=&quot]
If all else fails , LET GO OF THE HELM and stay in the irons for awhile, enjoy a brew and watch all others wrestle with it!
[/FONT]

Why not heave to?

 

[foolproof]

Stu:

Please describe how you would heave to in a 30 with a 150% Genny. I would like to know so I can reef when necessary, as well as to have a fast, simple procedure for MOB in case I fall overboard. My wife can drop the sails, start the engine, etc, but I want something she can do quickly, to save my bacon!!