excessive rounding up from rudder ventilation?

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Jun 5, 1997
659
Coleman scanoe Irwin (ID)
IMHO, the OP (an accomplished sailor) has been getting a lot of very solid advice in this interesting thread, but looks a bit fixated on the rudder ventilation issue.
I am in full agreement with Donalex that the effect of the major lateral shift in CE caused by excessive heeling can easily outweigh the effect of any forward shift due to sailing under jib alone.

This is further illustrated by the OP's own description of heeling and rounding up under a small jib. Since few coastal sailors routinely deploy separate staysails or stormjibs the usual solution to depend on a deeply furled genoa is unlikely to produce the desired degree of flatness and twist necessary to minimize heeling and maximize lift in high wind conditions.

This not to say, of course, that added rudder surface might not be beneficial as well. The suggestions provided by Shemandr, i.e. to add rudder length rather than width, look particularly appealing, especially if cost considerations do not allow the "cadillac option", namely dual, canted rudders.....

A fourth approach would be to add an accessory rudder, such as Scanmarine's Autohelm windvane rudder shown below. This was the configuration our Legend 43 "Rivendel II" carried for over a decade on her North and South Pacific wanderings. Although not primarily installed to increase rudder area, the effects on providing additional lift and directional stability were quite marked, e.g. when heaving to.



Fair winds,

Flying Dutchman
 

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Sep 13, 2009
11
Hunter h33 Sydney
Flying Dutchman - sorry if i seem fixated on ventilation. The weak rudder issue is a long time minor irritant (made worse by the fact that we have a lot of wind where i live).

I've thought about how to address this since i first bought the boat, but never liked any of the fixes that i considered. Then late this fall I spotted the bubble trails that coincided with roundup, and then my fixation on ventilation began :)

Seriously, the reason i'm interested is because ventilation can be controlled with some really simple mods. Also, if it is occurring, it affects any other mods. My reason for posting was to see if anyone had any direct experience or insight into this issue. The responses have been really interesting, but unfortunately no direct insight or observations on the issue of ventilation on this particular series of boats.

So I think i'm going to wait until the boat is back in the water this spring, and see if i can get some video over the stern next time I'm in those conditions. (I'm also going to invest in an inclinometer.)

And here's my thinking on the options discussed so far:

longer rudder: no way, i go aground too often :) and having a rudder slightly shorter than the keel helps me survive lobster season.

wider rudder: i'd be interested to see Sam's experience should he try it. I think that if stall or ventilation is involved, the effect of extra width may be lost just when it's needed.

twin canted rudders: not likely to happen on this 1977 boat, maybe i'll put that on the wish list for my next boat


btw, your experience with an accessory rudder is interesting, it seems to support the idea that incremental increase in rudder force makes a noticeable difference in handling in certain conditions.

final note: my wife says i'm fixated on sailing, but she's never mentioned ventilation :)
 
May 31, 2007
758
Hunter 37 cutter Blind River
VERY interesting issues and ideas here. So glad some recognize the effect of the driving force being to leeward, hence weather helm.
Ventilation - the act of air being drawn down the rudder from the surface, thereby reducing the specific gravity of the water (bubbles) resulting in loss of steerage. Hmm. That is a new concept on me. Interesting. Those fins might just do something. (At the bottom of a fin, sometimes called a vortex generator, something I read about years ago.) Would love to hear the results if tried.
I remember well my deep draft 33 doing the same round up thing on occasion but rarely with me steering. I guess I always headed up and pinched or eased sheets when I felt the pressure on the rudder, through the wheel, build up. It did happen though to other experienced helmsmen who were not as familiar with the boat.
I had cut off about 6 inches from the rudder's bottom due to hurricane damage when I bought the boat so never did sail her with a full fin. I had thought the rounding up was due to the shorter rudder. Apparently I thought wrong.
I believe the 33 is a great sea boat. She takes the waves very well and performs amazingly upwind. As mentioned in another post, she was a full-on exercise class steering downwind in waves but with sufficient sail area to keep up with the seas she wasn't as bad. I had a third reef put into the main and was fortunate enough to have inherited with the boat a great storm jib. With that rig I was able to sail upwind in 40 knots without roundup, driving through the waves at around 5.5 knots. She always did far better deeply reefed than heeled.
I frequently sailed genoa only when single handing. She experienced lee helm right after a tack but as soon as she picked up speed, appropriate weather helm would take over. Not sure what the physics were there but that was the case. However, she always sailed better with two sails up. I did try sailing her upwind in a good blow under reefed main only and found her to be quite the dog, but safe and manageable with no round up. Adding the little jib made a huge difference.
Looking forward to further discussion as others "broach" this issue.
 
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