Excellent essay on boat size - a must read.
- Thread starter Roger Long
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Sailingdog, the author of that blog, is a member of this forum and he can write some good stuff. This one I find "interesting"...
Read it. Not sure that is some of his "good stuff". It seemed to me that it was too much of a rant against big boats. He makes some excellent points that a small boat with the right captain can be safe. But there is too much bias for my liking. His comparison of Sunderland versus Watson makes my point. We all know that Jessica's 36-footer was a much better offshore boat than Sunderland's sled.
There are lots of well-founded larger boats with qualified captains. Just like there are lots of smaller boats with inexperienced crew sitting at the docks. I single hand my 37-cutter way more than I have crew. Friends with 40-footers do the same. So I give the article a C+.
There are lots of well-founded larger boats with qualified captains. Just like there are lots of smaller boats with inexperienced crew sitting at the docks. I single hand my 37-cutter way more than I have crew. Friends with 40-footers do the same. So I give the article a C+.
Hmm, I wonder about some of Dog's conclusions. I have a 30 footer that I single hand. I see guys on the bay single handing bigger boats.
We also use our boat as a shore house; dockside water, a galley to cook real meals, cable TV and AC are important to us. I'll even admit some mornings I'd rather laze in the cockpit with a cup of coffee and a good book. Being comfortable is not a bad thing.
My wife and I went to a seminar with Jack Klang in Annapolis this year. It was about women and sailing, but at the start of the seminar he talked about the fact that in the 70's there were more than twice as many registered sailboats, and about how job demands and the changing demands on kids had made it more and more difficult to get away and spend "family time".
I wonder if the very jobs that make the purchase of shiny new 40+ footers possible make it difficult for owners to find time to enjoy them. Professionals get very little vacation time, and it's often impossible to use the time you are given. I've had to install a WiFi booster on our boat so I can check email on weekends. Travel and work made it nearly impossible to spend time on the boat this spring.
A real factor might be that the guy spending $10,000 on a smaller boat can leave work behind at five o'clock on Friday. The guy buying that big boat doesn’t have that option anymore -- especially now.
Not a comment on who’s “right” in this scenario, just a sad comment on reality for many.
Jim
We also use our boat as a shore house; dockside water, a galley to cook real meals, cable TV and AC are important to us. I'll even admit some mornings I'd rather laze in the cockpit with a cup of coffee and a good book. Being comfortable is not a bad thing.
My wife and I went to a seminar with Jack Klang in Annapolis this year. It was about women and sailing, but at the start of the seminar he talked about the fact that in the 70's there were more than twice as many registered sailboats, and about how job demands and the changing demands on kids had made it more and more difficult to get away and spend "family time".
I wonder if the very jobs that make the purchase of shiny new 40+ footers possible make it difficult for owners to find time to enjoy them. Professionals get very little vacation time, and it's often impossible to use the time you are given. I've had to install a WiFi booster on our boat so I can check email on weekends. Travel and work made it nearly impossible to spend time on the boat this spring.
A real factor might be that the guy spending $10,000 on a smaller boat can leave work behind at five o'clock on Friday. The guy buying that big boat doesn’t have that option anymore -- especially now.
Not a comment on who’s “right” in this scenario, just a sad comment on reality for many.
Jim
Seems this could have been condensed into - Opinions vary -some people like smaller boats; others prefer larger boats.
Sounds more like a rant on People with more money than skills changing boat design to serve the rich rather than to serve the skilled seaman. We have all seen, or at least I have seen in many areas of life where people with more money than brains jump in thinking money will buy there way. Not true.
Nothing wrong with the gentlemans "bias" toward keeping things small. Bigger is not always better in the overall experience. It comes down to choice of the adventure you are looking for. One example would be the wife and I own the smallest pop up camper on the market. We are not missing out on a thing when it comes to the "camping experience" except for pissing neighbors off with televisions, radios and generators running all the time. The very wealthy and there excess can ruin the simple experiences of life in many ways.
jimmyb
Nothing wrong with the gentlemans "bias" toward keeping things small. Bigger is not always better in the overall experience. It comes down to choice of the adventure you are looking for. One example would be the wife and I own the smallest pop up camper on the market. We are not missing out on a thing when it comes to the "camping experience" except for pissing neighbors off with televisions, radios and generators running all the time. The very wealthy and there excess can ruin the simple experiences of life in many ways.
jimmyb
What do you know? I actually saw it on one of his Facebook posts and clicked through so quickly I didn't realize it was his blog. I'll have to pay more attention to it.
So much cyberspace, so little time....
Perhaps the difference is that a small boat sailor, particularly those that learned on very small boats, have been beaten by the sea and learned from it. They don't expect technology to bail them out when they've managed things poorly. They are prepared to fight things out and to accept the law of physics as they come into play.
Sorry Joe, what I get for trying to remember at my age. I know, "look it up!". Still, it makes the point even better. Nothing wrong with small boats, I love my 20-foot Highlander. As Neil points out, hard to have more fun. But that boat is a lot harder to prep, sail, and put away than my H37.
Although I don't agree with all that he says, particularly about single-handing and seamanship (I find a bigger boat easier to single-hand: who bends on sails these days?), I agree with the sentiment. And I don't like the result.
The Result is that:
1. People getting into sailing are usually told that they should START around 32 ft or so. The result is many who would get into sailing do not because they can't afford the cost of such a large boat., and
2. Manufactures have quit making solid, seaworthy boats under 30 ft. My Crown 28 is more solid than most others, and is designed for offshore (eg the companionway is small and there is a large lip you have to step over to get down below). I had to go to a 40-year-old boat because I cannot BUY a new one with these characteristics.
Remember when a Catalina 27 was considered a good, family, coastal cruiser?
druid
The Result is that:
1. People getting into sailing are usually told that they should START around 32 ft or so. The result is many who would get into sailing do not because they can't afford the cost of such a large boat., and
2. Manufactures have quit making solid, seaworthy boats under 30 ft. My Crown 28 is more solid than most others, and is designed for offshore (eg the companionway is small and there is a large lip you have to step over to get down below). I had to go to a 40-year-old boat because I cannot BUY a new one with these characteristics.
Remember when a Catalina 27 was considered a good, family, coastal cruiser?
druid
As with all things the skill and perseverance of the boater are going to make the difference when Murphy's laws kick in. Donna Lange hand steered for several days in the north Atlantic on her way to Ireland. A lot of men have rung the bell with smaller problems. Ms Lange would not have qualified for enough experience to cross an ocean if days at sea were the criterion. Her boat was small by most standards but with her at the helm it was big enough.
"However, I think that sailors in small boats making longer passages also require better seamanship skills. A larger boat is inherently more seaworthy, given similar construction quality and design. A smaller boat will generally have to reef earlier and resort to storm tactics sooner than a larger boat. Without a wider range of storm tactics, smaller boats are at far greater risk of capsize than larger boats." Quote copy and paste from excellant essay on boat size.
On the Beaufort scale of wind strength, a strong breeze is 22-27 miles per hour. The 4 mast merchant ship would be just fine but a 28 foot sailboat would probably be double reefed.
Edited with apologies to to sailingdog
On the Beaufort scale of wind strength, a strong breeze is 22-27 miles per hour. The 4 mast merchant ship would be just fine but a 28 foot sailboat would probably be double reefed.
Edited with apologies to to sailingdog
As someone who has owned boats from 11' to 40' I have my own opinions... but this blog post seems to be biased against those who sail/own/live aboard larger sailboats. Many sailors have taken small boats all over the world and are perfectly safe other small boats never return. The same can be said for larger boats. It's up to the individual skill and ability of sailor combined with the sea worthiness of their boat that really matters. Any boat that keeps the water on the outside of the boat can be considered seaworthy - that doesn't mean comfortable. The author doesn't really seem to account for the type of small boat and seems to focus primarily on length. After all this article has a 'mine is smaller than yours and I'm proud of it' flair to it. I always felt safe on my 27' Island Packet even when the wind was 30kts plus but on my current 40' I feel just as safe. Not all boats of the same size are created equal (e.g. heavy displacement full keel vs light weight club racing keel. Attributes of various boat types are discussed all throughout this forum so no need to go into that. Those discussions are part philosophy, part religion, and part pixy dust. In the end the blogger said what he was feeling (the primary purpose of a blog). Some of his points are valid - almost all the big sailing magazines focus on glossy new high priced boats with lots of shiny parts. My favorite is still good old boat. Blog entries get people thinking, talking, and sharing...and in the end that's what this forum is all about.
My $ 0.02 worth. I am as green as they come and although I have been crew on many varied sizes my "new to me" 1988 - 27' O'day is plenty big enough. Some times it feels too big. It has many of the features of the "bigger" boats such as inboard diesel, running water, roller furling, but none of the luxuries of the "floating condos". I dont want them at this point. I want to sail, and sail some more. The extras take away from what I'm trying to learn to do. Right now learning sailing is like trying to get a drink of water from a full open fire hose. Some much to learn and so little free time. There are plenty of "smaller" boats still out there as I just finished the purchasing process and know because I looked at a lot of them. Some were projects and some were beauties. But they're out there. I think that the area I'm in is so saturated with super rich that they dont have to "settle" for less than the biggest and best. That may not be the smartest though. There are many days when I'm out there that I wish I had grown up on "little" boats learning the wind and skills. Oh well, gotta start somewhere and to each his own. We all have different motives and different means. The great thing is we're all sailing and having fun in our own way. And so far the guys and gals I've met sailing are way nicer than the power/motor folks and I'd rather drop a hook and share a meal with them any day.
I agree that the magazines and boat builders have sold the idea that bigger is safer and it is, at least, a debatable point.
I disagree that everyone who buys a big boat is in it for the status, and doesn't know seamanship. Such a generalization is is just that. I don't have any negative judgement about folks who buy bigger boats. I think I probably envy them. But I'm not even sure of that, since bigger boats require more money and attention - at some point I just don't think its fun any longer. I've never been a fan of possessions that own me. Many very well heeled individuals have limped away from a yacht with a huge hole in the hip area - ask Trump. But other people think differently and they ultimately create some awesome and beautiful yachts. Good on 'em.
I disagree that everyone who buys a big boat is in it for the status, and doesn't know seamanship. Such a generalization is is just that. I don't have any negative judgement about folks who buy bigger boats. I think I probably envy them. But I'm not even sure of that, since bigger boats require more money and attention - at some point I just don't think its fun any longer. I've never been a fan of possessions that own me. Many very well heeled individuals have limped away from a yacht with a huge hole in the hip area - ask Trump. But other people think differently and they ultimately create some awesome and beautiful yachts. Good on 'em.
I really don't like the idea of people starting in a boat over 500 pounds. In a smaller boat you can really learn what being over powered feel likes. It teaches you what it feels like just before things get completely out of control.
A larger boat teaches other lessons: systems, dealing with higher line loads, planning trouble avoidance, docking and engine use in tight quarters. Also important lessons, but different. I can imagine that a fair weather sailor with a conservative 40-footer could sail for many years and never feel the edge of the envelope... until that fateful day when things get nasty. Then he hopes, wrongly, that, that the engine is always sure salvation. He start learning lessons he should have learned in a harbor on a brisk day, years before.
Also, SDs post on harnesses and tethers is good and timely. The only thing he skipped, in my mind, is to be certain that a man in the water is clear of the prop; on some boats it is deep underwater, but on some it's a menace.
Are you feeling guilty? Why? Sounds to me like you've done your time.
I can think of reasons I might move up again, and reasons I might not.
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