EV’s vs Ian

Oct 2, 2008
3,811
Pearson/ 530 Strafford, NH
Hi all,

I was watching the evening news and there was a report on EV’s burning after being submerged during hurricane Ian. I found several reports on the difficulty of dealing with the batteries and wondered why anyone would put them in a boat. Just curious as to what others might think.
 

Johann

.
Jun 3, 2004
513
Leopard 39 Pensacola
Those EV batteries are a different chemistry than the LiFePO4 (LFP) batteries typically used on boats. There are several studies available detailing the differences in safety, but basically LFP is extremely difficult to force into thermal runaway. At the temperature required to do so your boat is probably on fire from another source. If forced into thermal runaway and they begin to vent, the gases do not ignite unless exposed to an external flame. If ignited, the fire is at a relatively low temperature (below the melting point of most aluminum) and doesn’t generally propagate to adjacent cells/batteries. In testing, LFP battery fires have been shown to be easily extinguished.
Here’s one study..
 

dLj

.
Mar 23, 2017
4,409
Belliure 41 Back in the Chesapeake
Tesla uses 3 different chemistries (according to google):
The three main cathode types in Tesla EVs:

  • nickel-cobalt-aluminum (NCA)
  • nickel-cobalt-manganese (NCM)
  • lithium iron phosphate (LFP)
I would be really interested to know which of the above were in the cars that went up in flames. The current thinking is that LFP batteries won't do this. But I'd sure like to know if that's true. In Annapolis last week, I heard that Nygel Calder was saying that they can burn (I heard this second hand from someone that was in his class so take that for what it's worth). I would certainly like to know more.

dj
 

Johann

.
Jun 3, 2004
513
Leopard 39 Pensacola
I think Tesla and other EV manufacturers are headed towards using LFP for safety and longevity reasons, but I don’t think the LFP Teslas are in the US yet.
 
  • Like
Likes: Leeward Rail

dLj

.
Mar 23, 2017
4,409
Belliure 41 Back in the Chesapeake
wondered why anyone would put them in a boat. Just curious as to what others might think.
Given that LFP's have been considered quite safe along these lines, the use of that specific chemistry is very advantageous as these batteries do not sulfate. These batteries are quite happy to run in a partial state of charge.

All lead acid chemistries sulfate over time. This is exacerbated by running in partial state of charge. The difficulty on boats is that the way to counteract sulfation is through equalization which for boats that live with frequent access to shore power is not a problem, but boats that are cruising and may be away from shore power for extended times, this becomes quite difficult to do.

Hence, the advantage of LFP batteries is that over the lifetime of the batteries they actually cost notably less than any of the lead acid systems (most notably for cruisers).

dj
 
Jan 11, 2014
12,958
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
As others have said, LiFePO4 batteries are a different chemistry and are pretty safe. The concern for Lithium based batteries is thermal runaway, in which the batteries heat up to the point where they catch fire and the fire intensity continues to increase because of the reaction.

LiFePO4 batteries appear to be immune to this issue. ABYC has been conducting destructive testing of these batteries (aka LFP) and have been unable to initiate thermal runaway. The president of ABYC recently sent out a letter reporting their findings. The complete study has not been released to the public yet, it will be sent to the USCG for review.

Here's a copy of the email:

ABYC newsletter:

September 2022 Newsletter

ABYC President's Message

Common Sense

ABYC is built on a tradition of common sense and real world experiences. Early in my technical days, I was told ABYC designed the Standards so the backyard boatbuilder could achieve desired results. Testing and methodology were crafted in plain language for a “common sense” approach to a safe product.

We did not set aside best engineering practices for simplicity; the technical committee is packed with engineers and data-crunchers overseeing the process of drafting and updating the Standards. This balance has helped ABYC create useable, reliable, and relevant documents that help to achieve an unmatched level of safety in our industry. This is why, when the US Coast Guard asked us to look into potential problems with Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO 4) batteries on boats, we jumped at the chance.

The ABYC Technical Department, with input from the industry, recreated a number of scenarios based on accident narratives that claimed LiFePO 4 batteries to be the cause of a fire. In our on-site test lab, our team subjected batteries to conditions ranging from “normal” operations to extreme use and abuse. We purchased units built for the marine environment with robust battery management systems. We also included recycled batteries available from mass retailers, with an “optional” battery management system and no clear instructions from the battery or cell manufacturer. We tried to replicate sketchy behavior which is the fear of insurance companies and regulators alike.

Do you know what we found? We couldn’t start the fire (Sorry Billy Joel). We witnessed swollen cells, completely dead batteries, and multiple safety cutoffs (when not bypassed). We had a very hot summer here in MD. Even the high heat didn’t come close to a spontaneous combustion scenario.

We arranged calls with industry experts, and we asked them what we might be missing in our testing. What can we throw at these batteries to replicate the accidents we were hearing about? No one had anything to add, short of putting these batteries directly in a fire (which we did). We were able to add LiFePO 4 batteries to a local International Association of Arson Investigators (IAAI) boat burn--even there, no one detected any indication that the batteries themselves contributed to the fire. Many of us were fully expecting a report where we were able to replicate an unsafe situation and make some recommendations.

Our full report will be sent to the USCG in due course, and then ABYC will report on our findings. This being a mere President's letter please take it as what it is: My observations while watching our Technical Department do some great work. But, the research and testing may show us that we must take this discussion to the test labs for another round. Our common sense approach to testing has proven again to be the foundation for getting to the bottom of a scenario many of us (including myself) thought would reveal itself in short order. Stand by for formal reporting as we continue our work.

- John

jadey@abycinc.org
 
May 17, 2004
5,679
Beneteau Oceanis 37 Havre de Grace
Interesting experiment.
Fun! But those AA size batteries are lithium metal, which is quite different from the lithium ion chemistries used in rechargeable batteries. Lithium metal (along with the other alkali metals like sodium and potassium) does make for good science lab experiments, but doesn’t imply instability of Li-ion batteries any more than the instability of sodium implies flammability of table salt.
 
Mar 20, 2015
3,236
C&C 30 Mk1 Winnipeg
wondered why anyone would put them in a boat.
Those batteries aren't put in boats.
Different battery composition.

Even comparing across road vehicle manufacturers, you will find various designs. Different life expectancies, cost, chemical composition etc.

I expect my current vehicle to be rusted to death before I need to replace the battery. The same can't be said for the earlier Nissan leaf.

Even then I wouldn't use it's battery in a boat due to it's composition.

LiFePO4 on the other hand.. I would have no problems with using them.

good science lab experiments, but doesn’t imply instability of Li-ion batteries any more than the instability of sodium implies flammability of table salt.
:plus:
 

JamesG161

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Feb 14, 2014
7,770
Hunter 430 Waveland, MS
I would have no problems with using them.
I have a problem with using LFP on my boat.

At least until LFP recycling is mastered and easy for expired battery's materials to be recycled.

Expired FLA batteries are ≈95% recycled.

I guess there are no FLA batteries on large EV's.
Jim...

PS: Nature continues to make Lead [Pb] on Earth
 
Mar 20, 2015
3,236
C&C 30 Mk1 Winnipeg
At least until LFP recycling is mastered and easy for expired battery's materials to be recycled.
It will be eventually. Just for economic reasons alone. I fully expect that to be online before my vehicle needs replacing.

Same with any new infrastructure built to support new technology
 

Johann

.
Jun 3, 2004
513
Leopard 39 Pensacola
I have a problem with using LFP on my boat.

At least until LFP recycling is mastered and easy for expired battery's materials to be recycled.

Expired FLA batteries are ≈95% recycled.

I guess there are no FLA batteries on large EV's.
Jim...

PS: Nature continues to make Lead [Pb] on Earth
In about 10 years when my LFP bank is likely at 80% of initial capacity, I plan on replacing them and using them at home (where space isn’t an issue) for another 10 years as a backup power supply. In 20 years, I trust LFP recycling will be worked out.
 
  • Like
Likes: Leeward Rail

JamesG161

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Feb 14, 2014
7,770
Hunter 430 Waveland, MS
There is no new Lithium [Li] being made on Earth. Moon mining?

The main source of Li is from our Oceans.

We are mining past deposits of Li compounds. Chilé remains the largest source with the largest Reserves.

In 20 years, I trust LFP recycling will be worked out.
I hope that is true.

Your boat, your choice.
Jim...

PS: I asked my financial advisor to find that mining company in Chilé. He found one major company there.
PSS: At the current rates of battery use, I hope there are batteries being made in 20 years.
 
Mar 20, 2015
3,236
C&C 30 Mk1 Winnipeg
There is no new Lithium [Li] being made on Earth. Moon mining?
I am pretty sure that applies to most things that are mined.

that mining company in Chilé. He found one major company there.
And as demand grows, more companies come online.

Not much demand before.

Its all a matter of economics. Demand vs cost of recycling, mining etc.

Who knows.. In 20 years we may have better options
 
Last edited:

dLj

.
Mar 23, 2017
4,409
Belliure 41 Back in the Chesapeake
PSS: At the current rates of battery use, I hope there are batteries being made in 20 years.
One of the reasons I'm thinking to install LFP batteries now. I feel the cost is going to go up significantly in the near future...

dj
 
Mar 20, 2015
3,236
C&C 30 Mk1 Winnipeg
known deposits
I think that is the thing... Known...

Traditionally not as much demand so why would you look for more ?

Canada has massive deposits.

Canada was a major producer in the 50s until demand dropped and mines closed.


Just like uranium mining wasn't much of a thing until Marie Curie and especially the dawn of the nuclear age.

And who knows... Maybe other alternatives will arrive.

Nothing like demand and possible profit, to drive invention and exploration and development.

We shall see.
 
Last edited: