EVENT HORIZON Sail Countdown

[jibes138]

Pennant

Use some wire cable and swage an eyelet at each end, then put this from the tack of the sail to the attachment point on deck, it allows you to raise the sail a little higher, make sure your halyard has the extra length on it to allow the sail to be fully raised. Don't use too big a headsail, most boats seem to use 150% genoas and I find it is too much sail. Great for light winds but terrible in heavy winds. A better compromise is a 130% or just go to start with a 110%. Trying to sail with a half rolled up headsail is a disaster. The samller the headsail the shorter the luff so you should have the length you need to get it off the deck a couple feet.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Personally, I don't worry about the foot ...

I know what you mean and I thought about moving my life lines down for that very reason, but I would have to shorten the top life line and I didn't bother with it. In our case, 75% of the time we are sailing basically upwind or on a reach where the foot is generally inside the life lines anyway. When we do bear off on a broad reach or a run, the clew lifts anyway and the foot of the sail folds over the pulpit easily and I haven't noticed any wear. The photos show basically what I mean except that I don't have a photo on a run which shows the sail folding over the pulpit, but it simply isn't an issue in my mind. I would not bother with a tack pennant over that issue.

The bigger frustration that I have is how to set my sheets because of the location of my track directly under the life lines. For upwind sailing, I need to have them inside as you can see on the port tack (sail on the stbd side). As soon as I start to reach, the clew moves outside the life line and the sheet is on the wrong side. This puts a lot of tension on the life line to the point where the rope actually can burn the vinyl of the life line covering. When I run the sheet to the outside of the life line, you can see the problem I have when trying to sail upwind as shown on the stbd tack (sail on port side). I've played around with connecting a sheet to the outside with a separate snatch block but that gets to be a nuisance. It wouldn't be if we could set up for hours of sailing on one heading, but we set up for no more than 5 minutes before the shoreline causes a change in direction!

I agree with jibes that a 135 genny is plenty and more easily managed. I disagree that a smaller sail means a shorter luff. I have a 150 and a 110, both with the same luff length because both were cut specifically for my boat. The smaller sail merely has a shorter overlap and a much higher clew. The clew can be high or low, it all depends on the way the triangle is cut. On my 150, the clew is low, which gives me problems with visibility and the way i run the sheets as the photos show. It is also very difficult to manage the flutter on that lonnnnng leach. If I put much tension (if any) on the leach line, I get excessive cupping, which I don't want from a performance standpoint (besides I'll still get flutter in a strong breeze). If I move the fair lead forward enough to eliminate the flutter (moving forward puts more tension on the leach rather than the foot) I cannot achieve the twist that I want for performance (you move the fair lead back to increase twist). In winds below 15 k, flutter is not so bad, but I seem to have to live with quite a bit when the winds pick up and my leach is now showing signs of wear. You can eliminate these types of problems with a 135 genny and a higher cut clew (which shortens the leach).

To bring a long-winded story to a close ... I wouldn't even worry too much about these issues. I wouldn't attach a pennant at the tack of the sail because the way the foot may fold over it really isn't much of an issue (especially if you are going to work with an older sail). It's unclear to me if you intend to add hanks to your sails or shop for a used sail, but either way, you're gonna get what you get and you won't need to worry about what you want to specify. And all of the issues that you begin to notice are going to be relatively minor problems. Once you start sailing with what you have, you'll begin to learn your preferences and frustrations and you can make a better decision on how to cut a head sail for your desires. But no small problem is going to hamper your enjoyment of sailing.

You are going to be learning a lot more on your own as you hoist those sails on a regular basis in all kinds of conditions and headings! Enjoy!

 

[jibes138]

luff length and LP

I have multiple headsails and on each one decreasing the sail size also decreases the luff length. Not arguing with t-bird, just an example of how different sailmakers do things. Smaller sails are typically for stronger wind conditions and with stronger winds you typically get heavier seas breaking over the bow, so the clew is often cut higher so the sail doesn't get destroyed by the water smashing into the sail. Adding a tack pennant also helps this but at the expense of rasing your center of effort resulting in more heeling moment.
My lifelines also attach at the top of the pulpit and the headsails foot rides over the pulpit. The loss of efficiency is minimal and I agree not worth the bother.

 

[Hermit Scott]

Since we are on this topic and I will be getting a head sail up soon, there are 4 tracks on my boat. 2 short tracks on top the cabin, and too long tracks on the rail. What are the short tracks for and what are the long tracks for?

 

[Scott T-Bird]

That's nice to have ...

The cabin top tracks are for close haul and close reach sailing angles. These inboard tracks will help you sail closer to the wind and your tacking angles will be reduced when you are sailing upwind. This is something that I really wish I had on my boat and I've been semi-planning to add tracks to the inside side of my deck up alongside the coaming. As you can see, I only have tracks along the rail. Oh well, many boats don't even have a track and snatch blocks are attached directly to the toe rail.

Your tracks along the rail are for reaching and downwind sailing and probably reach further back for when you pole out the genny on a run.

I agree with jibes that sail makers have infinite reasons for cutting sails the way they do, and that for every purpose, there is a compromise. The trick is in finding which purposes are important to you and which compromises are unimportant!

 

[Hermit Scott]

The cabin top tracks are for close haul and close reach sailing angles. These inboard tracks will help you sail closer to the wind and your tacking angles will be reduced when you are sailing upwind. This is something that I really wish I had on my boat and I've been semi-planning to add tracks to the inside side of my deck up alongside the coaming. As you can see, I only have tracks along the rail. Oh well, many boats don't even have a track and snatch blocks are attached directly to the toe rail.

Your tracks along the rail are for reaching and downwind sailing and probably reach further back for when you pole out the genny on a run.

I agree with jibes that sail makers have infinite reasons for cutting sails the way they do, and that for every purpose, there is a compromise. The trick is in finding which purposes are important to you and which compromises are unimportant!

I have two cars that fit those tracks. If I am sailing with the wind I need to have them on that track and if I am sailing close hauled I need to move them to the inside tracks??? That seems like a hassel. The harken carbo blocks are cheap enough that I can buy them with out selling a kidney. Are they strong enough to take the load of the jib? I only ask because snatch blocks are 10 times as strong, and those are what Tbird said he would use for the jib blocks.
Also the harken carbo blocks I bought to reef the main are set up for 5/16" line max. it originally had 1/2" or something very thick going through the cringles of the reef.

 

[Joe]

Yes............ it is a hassle. Don't worry about it at all. Use the ones on the toerail... it's called the genoa track. Later on, as you gain sailing experience and upgrade your boat... you find a use for the inside track. I sometimes use mine to barberhaul the #1 genny. I have used the inside track in certain conditions with the #3 blade (it reduces the sheeting angle) but don't sweat it. You'll have a lot more to think about.l

I am concerned that you may not have proper sized jib blocks. At the minimum, for your 30 footer you should be able to accommodate 3/8 in sheets, but I'd go up at to 7/16 or 1/2 inch if possible.

Snatch blocks are way expensive. All you need are some simple sliding cars with spring supported blocks for your jib sheet set up.

ps.. I changed the mistake I made in the first paragraph... did you catch it.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

No, I don't use snatch blocks ...

I have the spring supported fairleads that slide on the track as Joe describes. Snatch blocks are expensive and I probably mis-spoke about their use on a toe rail. I think that most people who have to use their toe rail because they don't have a track use blocks with a shackle attaching it to the toe rail. This is very UN-adjustable because nobody really wants to un-do a shackle everytime they want to move the position of the fairlead.

But back to using the inside track, you aren't going to move your cars from the outside to the inside because it is probably a major hassle just removing them from the track. You either get a set of cars for the inside track (and I think they are very expensive), you can get the spring supported fairleads, which are more reasonable, or you can put one of those sliding rings on the track and use snatch blocks which have the advantage of being easily removed, and you can transfer the sheets without having to re-thread the ends thru the blocks. Snatch blocks are handy for many purposes, but they are expensive. I have 2 on board and I find various purposes for them. Just watch out that you don't lose them overboard. I bought Ronstad snatch blocks which I think were the most reasonable in price and they have a nice rubber casing which isn't so hard on deck.

If I'm not mistaken, those Harken carbo blocks are strong, not too expensive and may be very useful in that situation, but you would have to thread the lines when you transfer from outside to inside, no? Another option is to hook on another sheet with a snap shackle when you want to transfer lines. I've done that as well. There isn't always a clear-cut best way of doing things!

 

[Hermit Scott]

Yes............ it is a hassle. Don't worry about it at all. Use the ones on the toerail... it's called the genoa track. Later on, as you gain sailing experience and upgrade your boat... you find a use for the inside track. I sometimes use mine to barberhaul the #3 genny. I have used the inside track in certain conditions with the #1 blade (it reduces the sheeting angle) but don't sweat it. You'll have a lot more to think about.l

I am concerned that you may not have proper sized jib blocks. At the minimum, for your 30 footer you should be able to accommodate 3/8 in sheets, but I'd go up at to 7/16 or 1/2 inch if possible.

Snatch blocks are way expensive. All you need are some simple sliding cars with spring supported blocks for your jib sheet set up.

Catalina specs for the jib blocks are 7/16". I haven't bought any yet. I am pretty happy handling 7/16" line for the main sheet. That's what i will probably go with for the jib sheets. I haven't bought the jib sheets yet either.
5/16" is what I am using for the reefing lines. Well I haven't bought that line either, I have all the blocks for 5/16" line though. Hence my other post about reefing.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Block sizes ...

The blocks should handle a range of line sizes, probably from at least 3/8" to 1/2" which are the appropriate line sizes for your jib sheets. Some people like a 1/2" size more for comfort on the hands than any other reason. Here is a picture of my stand-up block for the fairlead. I replaced the jib cars that came with the boat because they were old and had siezed up. Some like the cars better because you can run 2 lines thru them (a racing application) and they have a lower profile. I didn't like the expense and a low profile isn't necessary as you can see my winch is mounted significantly higher. The disadvantage of my push-pin style of sliding adjustment is that you can't match the car with a line controlled fairlead adjustment (nice for adjustments when the sheet is loaded - racers 'need' it). Many people like that feature and I think on a larger boat I would want it, too, but on our small boat, I can do without the line clutter and I can settle for making adjustments when there is no tension on the sheets.

The sliding ring thing that I tallked about is shown at the front end of the track. I use this occasionally to attach a snatch block.

 

[Hermit Scott]

In the pic with your stand up block you have the line ran under the lifeline. Since I have tracks on the cabin top, could I run the lines from there even if the sail is on hte outside of the lifelines?
I installed netting all the way down the sides. I don't want to have to remove it to be able to sail downwind.

 

[jibes138]

T-Bird Do your sheets get tangled when you tack?

HAving your jib sheet run underneath your lifelines seems like you risk putting a lot of force on the lifelines if the sheet gets jammed in the block and you don't realize it and start to winch in the jib on the other side. I think my Catalina 25 had the track further inboard and the sheets always lay on top of the lifelines, my O'Day is set up this way as well. I only have one track right near the coach side. To run a spinnaker I bought a couple blocks and use a line to cleat them to my stern cleats and the the block runs the sheet to the jibsheet winch. Otherwise the sheet would be too far back for my track, this works well, kind of a rube goldberg set up but it makes me happy, and it is strong.

Do you like the Starwind? I remember they used to sell them at a place in East Windsor Ct. that no longer exists, that was back in the early 70's I guess. I looked at them a few times, they also sold small O'Days like the 22. What happened to the Starwind company?

Another option but not adjustable is a stand up block permanently mounted somewhere. I would think Hermitt could make his own with all the machinery at his disposal in his workshop?? Some nice titanium blocks with depleted uranium bearings.

 

[Hermit Scott]

I only use the depleted uranium in the 25 mm cannon.
A lathe is the one piece of equipment that I REALLY need. I have been on the look out.

 

[Joe]

running the jib sheets

In the pic with your stand up block you have the line ran under the lifeline. Since I have tracks on the cabin top, could I run the lines from there even if the sail is on hte outside of the lifelines?
I installed netting all the way down the sides. I don't want to have to remove it to be able to sail downwind.

You can run the jib sheets anyway you like. Your boat's deck design and rigging setup will dictate what is possible, or not possible. Depending on where your shrouds are located, which track you are using and where the car is positioned, the sail's design (high clew, low clew), boat width and how hard you want to sheet the sail in determine's whether you run the sheets inside or outside the lifelines.

Now... this is the reason you should be rigging your sail with two separate sheets attached with bowlines, instead of one long continous sheet doubled through the clew. Changing the sheet position becomes as simple as running a second line through the desired locations and tying it on to the clew, taking up the load and the releasing the old sheet...but leaving it rove through the previous block.

 

[Joe]

not an issue

HAving your jib sheet run underneath your lifelines seems like you risk putting a lot of force on the lifelines if the sheet gets jammed in the block and you don't realize it and start to winch in the jib on the other side.....................................

I'm not agreeing with you here. If something like that happens you're not using good sailhandling technique. You shouldn't be using the winch to pull the sail across anyway, the wind should be doing that for you. You risk much more damage by running the sheet over the top of the lifeline and let the force of the sail pull down on it. Besides it would screw up your sail's shape.

If you have problems with your sheet jamming in the lead block, you need a bigger block, or a smaller sheet.

 

[JIM B]

Routing Of The Jib Sheets

Re: EVENT HORIZON Sail Countdown
In the pic with your stand up block you have the line ran under the lifeline. Since I have tracks on the cabin top, could I run the lines from there even if the sail is on hte outside of the lifelines?
I installed netting all the way down the sides. I don't want to have to remove it to be able to sail downwind.

Hermit,
On my 1989 C30, I only have one genoa track on each side. It is on the deck running along the base of the cabin sides. The jib sheet runs from the car on that track over the life lines and outside the shrouds. This works well with a severly reefed/furled jib as well as a 155% genoa, and any size jib in between. If your jib car is mounted on the cabin top you will have no problem. Eventually you may want to add additional tracks or rig a barber haul, but the setup you have now will be fine for most occasions.

Congrats on you first sail. It will keep getting better still! Have fun and good luck.

 

[Stu Jackson]

And to summarize

Inside tracks: go over the lifelines

Outside track (on gunwhale, edge of deck, like the picture): go under the lifelines because the sail clew will NEVER go inside the lifelines.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Jibes, about Starwinds ...

The Starwind 27 is a Jim taylor designed boat. He also designed a few other Starwind models. The boat name has been owned by various manufacturers like Chrysler, Wellcraft and Rebel. Mine is a 1984 model built by Wellcraft and for that reason, I think it is a very well-built boat. Wellcraft stopepe making sailboats in the mid 80's I think and reel made a few after that I think bt the end of Starwind was in the 80's. I have a shoal draft with a 1 hp yanmar and a wheel. I'm told that they were also designed with a tiller and ouboard in mind and there is a fin keel which has a draft of just about 5'. My draft is 3' 7". It is a beamy boat for it's size - 9' 8". I love the lines of her and the performance seems to be very good. It has one of the lower prhf ratings among all 27 footers. If you look at Precisions, you are looking at the same mold. They made a 27' Precision up until a few years ago which is essentially an identical boat to mine, except for updates to the interior. Now, the 28' Precision is very similar except that it has a faractional rig, I believe, whereas the Starwind 27 is a masthead rig. Jim Taylor is the designer for Precision and Sabre.

Texas seems to be where most are located, and interestingly enough, ours had the name SARA from Spring Texas. You can still make out the shadow of her original name in just the right light. When we acquired her, she was Mixed Blessings from Red Bank, NJ.

The track location has been something that I am always fussing about. As Stu says, you have to run the sheets outside the lifelines anytime you let the genny out even a little. But my deck sweeping 150 genny has such a low clew that when I'm close hauled, I have to have the sheets inside the lifelines because the clew is drawn below the top lifeline and inside of it. If I'm using a jib with a high clew, like my 110, the sheets are always outside the lifeline because the clew is always outboard no matter how closely we sheet in.

What I really want to do is add a track to the inside for higher pointing. My deck has some soft areas due to rain water penetrating around the port lights. When I make that a project, I will hopefully add additional tracks. They will probably be toe stubbers!

 

[Hermit Scott]

This is alittle about sailing, more about anchoring. I don't want to start another post about anchoring so I will just post this here. We were doing some fishing and I wanted to try anchoring for the first time and get some practice.
We motor sailed out to a reef and I dropped a 33 lb. bruce type anchor, 30'- 5/16" chain and about 30' of rope in 10' of water. I didn't back it down but it held us anyway. I bought a 33 lb. claw because I thought it would be a good idea to oversize, but that mother is heavy! I have no bow roller so it was all I had getting that thing back in the boat.
I switch anchors to try out a fluke type I have. We go upwind of an oil rig, I try to let it set it's self like the claw. It didn't happen in 3 tries so I backed down on it and it sunk in. Getting that thing out was difficult. I had my friend pull forward and i locked a link onto a chock and powered past the anchor point and finally broke it free. Getting the anchor back in the boat is by far the most difficult part of anchoring. I brought the claw home with me to make a bow roller for it this week. I wouldn't even consider dropping that 33 lb. with just my wife and me on the boat. I hope the bow roller will help enough to make it not so difficult retrieving.
We motorsailed out but on the way back in we cut the engine. we were getting average of 5 knots on a reach and a run. It was the most fun I have had on my boat. I am totally hooked on sailing now. I let my land lubber friend steer while I handled the sail. I basically took RichH's advice and I would try something with the sail and have my friend call out the SOG to see if it worked. I am not sure where to place the stops on the traveller. With just the main we were averging 5 knots. But the boat didn't heel very much at all.
Today was the most fun I have had on my boat yet. I am hooked on sailing. I thought a trawler would be my boat of choice, but I wouldn't want a trawler now. I have to have a boat with sails.

 

[Cpt. Jon]

Sweet, sounds like a good time was had by all. 5kts is good speed under main alone. Glad to hear you guys had a good time! I don't have a bow roller on the new-to-us boat yet, but want one. Since getting the Manson Supreme I have no need for any other anchor, I have never slept so well as I do on the anchor, though I do want to install a washdown system up near the anchor locker now.