Ethanol IS bad for your engines
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Don't know about the rest of the midwest, but, here in S.E. Michigan, it's hard to find contaminant-free gasoline, or that's what I'd have in our boats.
As it is, right now, I'm trying to figure out how to get the E10 garbage out of our boats, because, since we haven't boated much the last three seasons, the fuel in them is going on three seasons old, so I'm definitely tempting fate. Time to get that stuff out of the boats and burn it up before it phase separates on us.
Jim
Calebd, I just go to my local small town airport and fill up my gas can, self service. They told me to just put 12345 in for the N number.
I've be amazed if that amount of water was collected simply because of a 10% ethanol mix fuel! Doesn't seem conceivable!
I'll give you a hint: that black liquid is not gasoline! The amber colored stuff floating on top is old fuel that I also 'recycled'.
Perhaps some background info should have been included. Our boat has a 20 gallon fuel tank for our Atomic 4 engine. We typically do not use more then 1/2 a tank of fuel in a season but try to keep the tank topped off with Sta-bil over the winter to reduce condensation.
After about 10 years of this kind of use it became evident that the Atomic 4 was unhappy with the quality of the fuel it was getting so I pumped out the gas tank by hand. The picture above represents the last gallon or so I pumped out. I am fairly certain that our tank does not take on water from the fill cap. This is many years worth of phase separated alcohol absorbing water.
Luckily for us our pick up tube has a hole in it at about the 1/2 tank level so all that crap normally floated below the pickup. Just another system for me to fix on a 45 year old boat.
YMMV.
Over time. Remember: Alcohol absorbs water. Here's one of many articles on the problem: Phase Separation in Ethanol Blended Gasoline's
Ethanol is evil, evil stuff. A cruel hoax perpetrated on us by greed and cluelessness. The only people who benefit from it is the agriculture industry and do-gooder politicians.
Jim
yeah it's political,which we can't control, but you can control your engine. with just a little bit of proper maintanence you can use 10% for decades without ever having any kind of a problem.#1 is never leave fuel in your tank for more then 6 months, always do a total drain and refill twice a season and you'll never have a problem.all engines made after 1980's are engineered to run on 10% alhcohol with no damage or problems whatsoever.if you have issues they are all maintinence related.
1. easier said than done, whether in a boat, a car, a mower, a tractor or what ever...who pays for all this waste? Certainly not the gov't.
2.the engines themselves may run on 10%, but anything made in the 80's or 90's that is not specifically designed to tolerate alcohol/ethanol - that is used to get fuel anywhere in the system, as well as most pumps and filters are NOT 10% compatible and will slime/dissolve/gunk/clog/fail in short order. Just ask Stihl power equipment and other small engine manufacturers what it cost them in the past two years in replacement and EPA mandated changes to their fuel systems. ALL the caps on their weedwackers had to be changed last year, at Stihl's expense...that is Millions of dollars just on one product...
3. Maintenance has little to do with the issues most of us are dealing with in our boats or in our businesses dealing with boats, it is the fact that ethanol is far more corrosive and not fit for fuel
FWIW, I have not had a single problem in the last 3 years with my 1990 Tohatsu 8hp 2 Stroke engine running E10 through it.
I strongly suspect that the reason I haven't had problems is because I always tilt the engine all the way up and out of the water, which allows any fuel in the bowl to drain out the front of the carb. There is always a little puddle of gel / sludge fuel remenants inside the engine cowleing when I check it. I effectivly drain the fuel every time I am done with the engine.
I have however had problems with moisture collecting in the tank. I had to drain the tank 2 weeks ago and found at least a cup of water at the bottom of the tank.
My 2hp Honda 4 stroke dinghy motor has been working fine as long as I always close the fuel shutoff and close the tank vent (which does seal the tank, I hear a pressure prelease hiss sometimes when opening it the next time), it always takes a few pulls to start the first time out since it has to pull the fuel back though the carb, but it always starts by the 4th pull, and then 90% of the time after that restarts on the 1st pull.
I strongly suspect that the reason I haven't had problems is because I always tilt the engine all the way up and out of the water, which allows any fuel in the bowl to drain out the front of the carb. There is always a little puddle of gel / sludge fuel remenants inside the engine cowleing when I check it. I effectivly drain the fuel every time I am done with the engine.
I have however had problems with moisture collecting in the tank. I had to drain the tank 2 weeks ago and found at least a cup of water at the bottom of the tank.
My 2hp Honda 4 stroke dinghy motor has been working fine as long as I always close the fuel shutoff and close the tank vent (which does seal the tank, I hear a pressure prelease hiss sometimes when opening it the next time), it always takes a few pulls to start the first time out since it has to pull the fuel back though the carb, but it always starts by the 4th pull, and then 90% of the time after that restarts on the 1st pull.
TLDR: http://pure-gas.org/
pick your state at the bottom.
+ often you'll find real gas at race tracks... for a price. (usually 100-110)
pick your state at the bottom.
+ often you'll find real gas at race tracks... for a price. (usually 100-110)
While it is clear you try to practice good fuel storage practices, there is one area where you have fallen down badly: no one has sugested that e10 can be kept more than 3-4 months, and yet you have extended that to ~ 2 years, and that is a probem. Would you go 2 years without an oil change? Of course you would not.
Run your engine more. Marine engines in sailboats die more from dis-use than milage. I know we are sailors, but that fact is an engine that is used regularly runs better.
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Four additional points:
1. If you change the fuel regularly and there is no water leak, e10 cannot absorb enough to separate. The fresh fuel absorbs what little has entered with breathing.
2. Water absorbed from the air does little to contribute to corrosion problems. Salt water, on the other hand, is deadly. A few drops will tear up a carb unless the correct addative is in place (Stabil helps).
3. Additives that suspend water can make corrosion much worse (Practical Sailor testing).
3. Vent filters (H2OUT ADV and others) are effective.
Then the alcohol attacking the original fuel lines of my 1999 Nissan outboard making the inside walls slimy gum which clogged the carb jets was just my imagination ! B.S. :dance:
Jim
What amazed me was that a 10% ethanol mix could create what appears to be a 50% water layer (probably greater). Either a miracle or science needs to revise the rules of mass balance.
Don,
My picture of bad gas showed the last gallon of a 20 gallon tank. Of that gas approximately 3/4 of the gallon had 'crap' in it. So even if it was a full gallon that is 1/20th of the tank capacity or 5% of volume, which is less then the 10% Ethanol contained in a 20 gallon tank (which would be 2 gallons).
I agree with the comments that suggest I need to empty the tank more frequently and 'rotate' out the old fuel.
My picture of bad gas showed the last gallon of a 20 gallon tank. Of that gas approximately 3/4 of the gallon had 'crap' in it. So even if it was a full gallon that is 1/20th of the tank capacity or 5% of volume, which is less then the 10% Ethanol contained in a 20 gallon tank (which would be 2 gallons).
I agree with the comments that suggest I need to empty the tank more frequently and 'rotate' out the old fuel.
Everyone forgets that gasoline is structured for local and regional areas to meet EPA regulations. We do not all burn the same stuff. So therefore, if YOUR not having trouble with YOUR gasoline, it has absolutely no bearing on the garbage they sell your buddy 50 miles away.
It is also well known that urban areas have much more ethanol and other chemicals added to control (supposedly) smog, and rural areas are often less restricted. What is less known, is that people who have been buying gas in urban areas, suddenly notice quite an increase in fuel economy when they get out of town and buy some rural fuel.
Another factor is quality. Just because the pump says 10%, dont believe it. People have reported some pretty wild swings in actual measured percent of alcohol in fuel they have bought and tested. Some reportedly over 15%. While most modern vehicles can tolerate higher rates of ethanol, most outboards would barely run on it or not run at all, and it could hole their pistons if they did. Many would be wise to buy a test vial so you can check the fuel you buy for ethanol content.
Most any engine and its subsequent parts can tolerate 10% ethanol. But as it rises above that mark, or as they add other unknown chemicals they dont feel free to tell us about, people begin to see some real problems. In some cases fuel hoses can deteriorate within 12 months, especially small engines that are only used seasonally. As long as fresh fuel is continually added thay dont seem to have a lot of trouble. But let it sit 6 months and it may change into something that is both corrosive and chemically destructive to rubber and plastics. Fuel lines become perforated, the fuel turns to gel with colors ranging from green to orange depending on region. Left over fuel in carb bowls can form crystalline deposits that will completely plug the jets and passageways which in most cases turns the carb into an utter piece of junk.
Best practice is to not let fuel get more than three months old without at least adding some extra fuel and shaking it up, as adding fresh seem to have the effect of refreshing the older fuel. If the engine is not going to be run for a while, it is best to completely run it out of fuel. If you dump your fuel tank, you can run mixed 2 stroke fuel in just about any small gas 4 stroke engine, but do not run it in anything with catalytic converters as the products in 2 stroke oil could damage the cat.
Best is simply to run diesels and give up on gasoline altogether.
It is also well known that urban areas have much more ethanol and other chemicals added to control (supposedly) smog, and rural areas are often less restricted. What is less known, is that people who have been buying gas in urban areas, suddenly notice quite an increase in fuel economy when they get out of town and buy some rural fuel.
Another factor is quality. Just because the pump says 10%, dont believe it. People have reported some pretty wild swings in actual measured percent of alcohol in fuel they have bought and tested. Some reportedly over 15%. While most modern vehicles can tolerate higher rates of ethanol, most outboards would barely run on it or not run at all, and it could hole their pistons if they did. Many would be wise to buy a test vial so you can check the fuel you buy for ethanol content.
Most any engine and its subsequent parts can tolerate 10% ethanol. But as it rises above that mark, or as they add other unknown chemicals they dont feel free to tell us about, people begin to see some real problems. In some cases fuel hoses can deteriorate within 12 months, especially small engines that are only used seasonally. As long as fresh fuel is continually added thay dont seem to have a lot of trouble. But let it sit 6 months and it may change into something that is both corrosive and chemically destructive to rubber and plastics. Fuel lines become perforated, the fuel turns to gel with colors ranging from green to orange depending on region. Left over fuel in carb bowls can form crystalline deposits that will completely plug the jets and passageways which in most cases turns the carb into an utter piece of junk.
Best practice is to not let fuel get more than three months old without at least adding some extra fuel and shaking it up, as adding fresh seem to have the effect of refreshing the older fuel. If the engine is not going to be run for a while, it is best to completely run it out of fuel. If you dump your fuel tank, you can run mixed 2 stroke fuel in just about any small gas 4 stroke engine, but do not run it in anything with catalytic converters as the products in 2 stroke oil could damage the cat.
Best is simply to run diesels and give up on gasoline altogether.
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