According to the news ethanol additive gasoline is coming within weeks to the Baltimore area. Based on what I have read in the Boat US literature, this mixture is deadly for engines that are supplied via fiberglass tanks, ie. it degrades the fiberglass resin which ends up in the motor. Does anyone know if this ethanol/gasoline also degrades the common red plastic carry-on gas cans used with outboard auxilaries? Where can we get a straight answer? Thanks, CVP
Ethanol Gasoline is Coming!
- Thread starter fastscot
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Ethanol is supplied to the public in
plastic containers called liquor bottles. I have never found the use of denatured alchol to be harmful to polyester resin or even useful as a solvent for cleaning tools when using polyester resin on my boat.
plastic containers called liquor bottles. I have never found the use of denatured alchol to be harmful to polyester resin or even useful as a solvent for cleaning tools when using polyester resin on my boat.
They have been putting various types
of ethanol & other alcohols in motor fuels during winter in western states for a number of years. Usually it's pretty dilute and a lot like using a fuel drier in your car. Some feared it would eat fuel lines, but unless it's a really high concentration I don't think there is a problem. Brazil has been running cars on ethanol for decades.
of ethanol & other alcohols in motor fuels during winter in western states for a number of years. Usually it's pretty dilute and a lot like using a fuel drier in your car. Some feared it would eat fuel lines, but unless it's a really high concentration I don't think there is a problem. Brazil has been running cars on ethanol for decades.
Ethanol is bad for older fiberglass
Fastscot is right about ethanol in fiberglass tanks - at least older ones. The link below is for a Boat/US article which addresses the problem. Also, I know of at least one person that ruined a set of wingtip tanks in his airplane with mogas containing ethanol. For that reason and others, gasoline containing ethanol is not allowed in airplanes. Warren
Fastscot is right about ethanol in fiberglass tanks - at least older ones. The link below is for a Boat/US article which addresses the problem. Also, I know of at least one person that ruined a set of wingtip tanks in his airplane with mogas containing ethanol. For that reason and others, gasoline containing ethanol is not allowed in airplanes. Warren
E-85 test for fiberglass tanks
We use the stuff right now in our Suburban. 100++ octaine!!! Since it is 85% ethanol and 15% regular gas that means that is is chemicaly identical to 85*2=170 proof vodka or rum. Take some of your stores of rum and wipe it on the outside of your tank with a white cloth (after putting out your cigs), let it stay their for an hour or two covered by the rag and see if there is any melting of the surface. I agree with Ross ethanol (not methanol) is not a great solvent for anything except water and Coke. It does have a interesting exhaust smell though.
We use the stuff right now in our Suburban. 100++ octaine!!! Since it is 85% ethanol and 15% regular gas that means that is is chemicaly identical to 85*2=170 proof vodka or rum. Take some of your stores of rum and wipe it on the outside of your tank with a white cloth (after putting out your cigs), let it stay their for an hour or two covered by the rag and see if there is any melting of the surface. I agree with Ross ethanol (not methanol) is not a great solvent for anything except water and Coke. It does have a interesting exhaust smell though.
Not so quick!
I hope everyone will take a moment to read the link that SeaAir was nice enough to attach. The 10% ethanol mixture gasoline that is replacing the MTBE mixture is definitly causing problems to boats with older fiberglass tanks. That appears to be a given. I was extrapolating the potential problem to the common red "plastic" portable gas can. Maybe Bill Roosa's test will give an indication if there is to be a problem. Thanks Roosa for the input and say hello to Bill Kommalan down there. CVP
I hope everyone will take a moment to read the link that SeaAir was nice enough to attach. The 10% ethanol mixture gasoline that is replacing the MTBE mixture is definitly causing problems to boats with older fiberglass tanks. That appears to be a given. I was extrapolating the potential problem to the common red "plastic" portable gas can. Maybe Bill Roosa's test will give an indication if there is to be a problem. Thanks Roosa for the input and say hello to Bill Kommalan down there. CVP
The polyester resin used in
fiberglass construction is chemically the same polyester as is used to make your sails. The difference is that in the manufacturing process polyester is desolved in styrene monomer and othe materials to be later reacted with MEKP to make a solid. Must modern fuel storage tanks in gas stations are filiment wound polyester resin fiber glass tanks.
fiberglass construction is chemically the same polyester as is used to make your sails. The difference is that in the manufacturing process polyester is desolved in styrene monomer and othe materials to be later reacted with MEKP to make a solid. Must modern fuel storage tanks in gas stations are filiment wound polyester resin fiber glass tanks.
There are other problems! *yks
The E10 blended gas shouldn't affect the plastic gas can. I would be more worried about plugging the fuel filter. Most newer engines can withstand E10, but not the E85 blended gas. You should use E85 on engines stated in their manual that they are design for E85 grade gas. Ethanol is very corrosive and has an affinity for water. Check out the two links on Ethanol. The power boater magazine had story about E10 clogging the outboard engines. They also mention that only E10 should be used and that when the gas companies mixes the ethanol, they aren't very accurate. The outboard motor companies did a spot check and found out that the levels of ethanol was greater then 10%. It looks like you shouldn't leave the E10 in the tank for very long, you have to use it up very quickly to ensure that it doesn't mix with moisture in the air or it might stall your engine. You would also have to get bigger filters since it might have a lot more junk in because it's corrosive. Fair Winds, Clyde Chevron http://www.chevron.com/products/prodserv/fuels/bulletin/motorgas/4_oxygenated-gasoline/pg2.asp E10 Plugging http://www.boatingmag.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=691&print_page=y
The E10 blended gas shouldn't affect the plastic gas can. I would be more worried about plugging the fuel filter. Most newer engines can withstand E10, but not the E85 blended gas. You should use E85 on engines stated in their manual that they are design for E85 grade gas. Ethanol is very corrosive and has an affinity for water. Check out the two links on Ethanol. The power boater magazine had story about E10 clogging the outboard engines. They also mention that only E10 should be used and that when the gas companies mixes the ethanol, they aren't very accurate. The outboard motor companies did a spot check and found out that the levels of ethanol was greater then 10%. It looks like you shouldn't leave the E10 in the tank for very long, you have to use it up very quickly to ensure that it doesn't mix with moisture in the air or it might stall your engine. You would also have to get bigger filters since it might have a lot more junk in because it's corrosive. Fair Winds, Clyde Chevron http://www.chevron.com/products/prodserv/fuels/bulletin/motorgas/4_oxygenated-gasoline/pg2.asp E10 Plugging http://www.boatingmag.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=691&print_page=y
Ethanol vs gasoline compatibility
I checked the compatibility tables on Cole-Parmer's website: http://www.coleparmer.com Major concerns are: Buna-N (nitrile) used extensively on seals and o-rings in engines and fuel systems: Gasoline - Excellent; Ethanol - Fair Polyurethane used as a sealant/adhesive: Gasoline - Good; Ethanol - Severe Effect Other sources list cork as a problem, too. All o-rings, gaskets and seals should be replaced with viton if you're going to use ethanol.
I checked the compatibility tables on Cole-Parmer's website: http://www.coleparmer.com Major concerns are: Buna-N (nitrile) used extensively on seals and o-rings in engines and fuel systems: Gasoline - Excellent; Ethanol - Fair Polyurethane used as a sealant/adhesive: Gasoline - Good; Ethanol - Severe Effect Other sources list cork as a problem, too. All o-rings, gaskets and seals should be replaced with viton if you're going to use ethanol.
Wacked my Weed Eater
A 10% ethanol blend totally destroyed my gas-powered Weed Eater. It worked fine for five years; two tanks of blended fuel made mush of the Buna rubber parts. Further, engine (vehicles and other equipment) efficiency decreases 5-15% in terms of mileage and horsepower when using ethanol blended gas. It is a scam. I know. I sold the stuff for ten years.
A 10% ethanol blend totally destroyed my gas-powered Weed Eater. It worked fine for five years; two tanks of blended fuel made mush of the Buna rubber parts. Further, engine (vehicles and other equipment) efficiency decreases 5-15% in terms of mileage and horsepower when using ethanol blended gas. It is a scam. I know. I sold the stuff for ten years.
agreed
When I run the blended fuel I get 25 to 35 fewer miles per tankfull. Used to be, stations that sold blends would proclaim it on the pump so you could stay away from it Ken
When I run the blended fuel I get 25 to 35 fewer miles per tankfull. Used to be, stations that sold blends would proclaim it on the pump so you could stay away from it Ken
I just found this report
Edit to attach link: http://www.ilcorn.org/Ethanol/Ethan_Studies/Small_Engines/small_engines.html Test Program Summary Field Evaluation of Small Engine Lawn & Garden Equipment Operating On Gasoline Containing 10% Ethanol . A.D. Kasperson Lake Area Vocational Technical Institute . R.E. Reynolds Downstream Alternatives, Inc. Test Description A field evaluation test was conducted to determine the suitability of 90% gasoline/10% ethanol blends for use in small engine lawn and garden equipment. The test equipment used in this program consisted of identical paired units, one operating of gasoline + 10% ethanol, the other operating on a hydrocarbon only control fuel. Paired units consisted of power generators, chain saws, weed trimmers, lawn mowers, and leaf blowers, all of which were 2 stroke cycle equipment and a set of water transfer pumps that were 4-stroke cycle. Seven various manufacturer's product lines were represented in this test. The test program included actual and simulated use conditions with actual use being the predominant method of accumulating operating hours. The attached table lists the equipment type, oil type, gasoline to oil ratio and actual and simulated use in each unit. Gasoline used for the test was from standard batches for retailcommercial distribution and met ASTM specifications. The gasoline which served as the control fuel also served as the base fuel for manufacturing the gasoline/ethanol blend. The ethanol was from a standard batch of anhydrous fuel grade ethanol. The gasoline/ethanol blend was manufactured my mixing 9 parts gasoline with 1 part ethanol. No other adjustments were made to the gasoline. Fuel for 2-stroke cycle equipment was blended to manufacturers recommendations utilizing the manufacturers recommended oil. Test and control units, as well as test and control fuels, were color coded and numbered to avoid inadvertent mis-fueling. All test units and fuels were odd numbered and color coded green. Control units and fuels were even numbered and colored red. To the extent possible, hours were accumulated by actual in-use conditions, although some simulated operations were necessary. A total of 1305+ hours were accumulated on the test units, 1208+ hours on the control units. Hours of operation on each unit were targeted to be equivalent to 3 to 5 seasons of use. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Test Results The primary goal of the test was to determine if gasoline/ethanol blends would result in any equipment failures resulting in loss of the use or unusual repair. Operator logs were maintained throughout the test to document hours of operation and maintenance. No test equipment experienced any catastrophic failure. All test equipment was operational at the termination of the test. It is important to note that this test was a field evaluation based on observation and did not incorporate any universally accepted rating procedures. After completion of targeted hours the equipment was disassembled, inspected, and compared. The only materials compatibility problem noted was on the Homelite Blower Vac. The fuel line on the test unit was visibly more swollen than the control unit. There was also piston scoring on the McCulloch Chain Saw test unit that was not evidenced in the control unit. Since the scope of this test did not allow monitoring of air-fuel ratio or operating temperature, it is not possible to determining the exact effect, if any, that the fuel may have had. One area that may warrant further investigation is piston ring sticking. On test units with high hours of operation (i.e. 200 to 400 hrs.) there was a greater incidence of piston ring sticking. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Related Information Recently Valvoline Oil Company had a test conducted at a major testing laboratory to determine the affect of gasoline/ethanol blends on both lubricity and materials compatibility. The lubricity test, conducted on a Yamaha 49cc engine at a gasoline to oil ratio of 150:1, showed a lower "delta torque" on the gasoline/ethanol blend. In this test, the lower the "delta torque" the better the lubricity. In other words, the gasoline/ethanol blend provided better lubricity than the control fuel. The materials compatibility test, conducted by soaking various elastomers in gasoline/ethanol blends with a gasoline to oil ratio of 20:1, showed that the blended fuel performed comparably to the control fuel in both hardness and volume change. The test, although too small to allow statistical conclusions, does indicate that gasoline/ethanol blends performed satisfactorily in this instance. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Summary & Conclusions This test represents over 1300 hours of operation accumulated on test units representing 7 manufacturers and 6 use applications. Though the scope of the test did not allow the scientific precision that would be incorporated in more comprehensive testing, it does indicate that the average consumer would not experience equipment failures which result in loss of use or unusual repairs. All test equipment was operable at the conclusion of the test. The review of operators logs and equipment disassembly inspection as well as the testing conducted at the request of Valvoline indicates that gasoline/ethanol blends can provide satisfactory performance in small engine lawn and garden equipment providing manufacturers recommendations for oil type and service intervals are followed. This conclusion is further substantiated by the decision of a number of small engine lawn and garden equipment manufacturers to include the use of properly blended gasoline/ethanol blends under warranty coverage. Unit # Equipment Oil Type & Ratio Actual Use Simulated Use Total Operations 1 & 2 Stihl 028 Wood Boss Chain Saw Stihl (ash)32:1 1)222hrs 2)155hrs. -- -- 222hrs. 155hrs 3 & 4 Lawn Boy Weed Trimmer Lawnboy (ashless) 3)29hrs/25min4) 24hrs/40min 26hrs/50min 24hrs/21min 56hrs/15min 24hrs/21min 5 & 6 Powermate PM500 Portable Generators STihl(ash) & Snapper (Ashless) 25:1 5)405hrs/53min 6)402hrs/59min -- -- 405hrs/53min 402hrs/59min 7&8 McCulloch Promac 440 Chain Saw McCulloch(a shless)NMM A-BIA Service TC-W, 40:1 7)104 hrs/30min 8)95hrs/30min -- -- 104hrs/30min 95hrs/30min 9 & 10 Homelite Blower Vac Homelit/Jaco bsen(ash) 32:1 9)21hrs/10min 10)27hrs/53min 31hrs/9min 28hrs/55min 52hrs/19min 56hrs/55min 11 & 12 Snapper HiVac Self-Propelled Mower Snapper (ashless) NMMA-BIA Service TC-W,32:1 11)151hrs/58min 12)100hrs/15min 101hrs/25min 141hrs/55min 253hrs/23min 242hrs/10min 13 & 14 Honda WB15 Water Transfer Pump Crankcase Honda SAE 10W40 Service SF 4 Stroke 13)-- 14)-- 210hrs/50min 207hrs/2min 210hrs/50min 207hrs/2min Test Unit Totals 934hrs/56min 370hrs/14min 1305hrs/30min Control Unit Totals 806hrs/17min 402hrs/13min 1208hrs/30min
Edit to attach link: http://www.ilcorn.org/Ethanol/Ethan_Studies/Small_Engines/small_engines.html Test Program Summary Field Evaluation of Small Engine Lawn & Garden Equipment Operating On Gasoline Containing 10% Ethanol . A.D. Kasperson Lake Area Vocational Technical Institute . R.E. Reynolds Downstream Alternatives, Inc. Test Description A field evaluation test was conducted to determine the suitability of 90% gasoline/10% ethanol blends for use in small engine lawn and garden equipment. The test equipment used in this program consisted of identical paired units, one operating of gasoline + 10% ethanol, the other operating on a hydrocarbon only control fuel. Paired units consisted of power generators, chain saws, weed trimmers, lawn mowers, and leaf blowers, all of which were 2 stroke cycle equipment and a set of water transfer pumps that were 4-stroke cycle. Seven various manufacturer's product lines were represented in this test. The test program included actual and simulated use conditions with actual use being the predominant method of accumulating operating hours. The attached table lists the equipment type, oil type, gasoline to oil ratio and actual and simulated use in each unit. Gasoline used for the test was from standard batches for retailcommercial distribution and met ASTM specifications. The gasoline which served as the control fuel also served as the base fuel for manufacturing the gasoline/ethanol blend. The ethanol was from a standard batch of anhydrous fuel grade ethanol. The gasoline/ethanol blend was manufactured my mixing 9 parts gasoline with 1 part ethanol. No other adjustments were made to the gasoline. Fuel for 2-stroke cycle equipment was blended to manufacturers recommendations utilizing the manufacturers recommended oil. Test and control units, as well as test and control fuels, were color coded and numbered to avoid inadvertent mis-fueling. All test units and fuels were odd numbered and color coded green. Control units and fuels were even numbered and colored red. To the extent possible, hours were accumulated by actual in-use conditions, although some simulated operations were necessary. A total of 1305+ hours were accumulated on the test units, 1208+ hours on the control units. Hours of operation on each unit were targeted to be equivalent to 3 to 5 seasons of use. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Test Results The primary goal of the test was to determine if gasoline/ethanol blends would result in any equipment failures resulting in loss of the use or unusual repair. Operator logs were maintained throughout the test to document hours of operation and maintenance. No test equipment experienced any catastrophic failure. All test equipment was operational at the termination of the test. It is important to note that this test was a field evaluation based on observation and did not incorporate any universally accepted rating procedures. After completion of targeted hours the equipment was disassembled, inspected, and compared. The only materials compatibility problem noted was on the Homelite Blower Vac. The fuel line on the test unit was visibly more swollen than the control unit. There was also piston scoring on the McCulloch Chain Saw test unit that was not evidenced in the control unit. Since the scope of this test did not allow monitoring of air-fuel ratio or operating temperature, it is not possible to determining the exact effect, if any, that the fuel may have had. One area that may warrant further investigation is piston ring sticking. On test units with high hours of operation (i.e. 200 to 400 hrs.) there was a greater incidence of piston ring sticking. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Related Information Recently Valvoline Oil Company had a test conducted at a major testing laboratory to determine the affect of gasoline/ethanol blends on both lubricity and materials compatibility. The lubricity test, conducted on a Yamaha 49cc engine at a gasoline to oil ratio of 150:1, showed a lower "delta torque" on the gasoline/ethanol blend. In this test, the lower the "delta torque" the better the lubricity. In other words, the gasoline/ethanol blend provided better lubricity than the control fuel. The materials compatibility test, conducted by soaking various elastomers in gasoline/ethanol blends with a gasoline to oil ratio of 20:1, showed that the blended fuel performed comparably to the control fuel in both hardness and volume change. The test, although too small to allow statistical conclusions, does indicate that gasoline/ethanol blends performed satisfactorily in this instance. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Summary & Conclusions This test represents over 1300 hours of operation accumulated on test units representing 7 manufacturers and 6 use applications. Though the scope of the test did not allow the scientific precision that would be incorporated in more comprehensive testing, it does indicate that the average consumer would not experience equipment failures which result in loss of use or unusual repairs. All test equipment was operable at the conclusion of the test. The review of operators logs and equipment disassembly inspection as well as the testing conducted at the request of Valvoline indicates that gasoline/ethanol blends can provide satisfactory performance in small engine lawn and garden equipment providing manufacturers recommendations for oil type and service intervals are followed. This conclusion is further substantiated by the decision of a number of small engine lawn and garden equipment manufacturers to include the use of properly blended gasoline/ethanol blends under warranty coverage. Unit # Equipment Oil Type & Ratio Actual Use Simulated Use Total Operations 1 & 2 Stihl 028 Wood Boss Chain Saw Stihl (ash)32:1 1)222hrs 2)155hrs. -- -- 222hrs. 155hrs 3 & 4 Lawn Boy Weed Trimmer Lawnboy (ashless) 3)29hrs/25min4) 24hrs/40min 26hrs/50min 24hrs/21min 56hrs/15min 24hrs/21min 5 & 6 Powermate PM500 Portable Generators STihl(ash) & Snapper (Ashless) 25:1 5)405hrs/53min 6)402hrs/59min -- -- 405hrs/53min 402hrs/59min 7&8 McCulloch Promac 440 Chain Saw McCulloch(a shless)NMM A-BIA Service TC-W, 40:1 7)104 hrs/30min 8)95hrs/30min -- -- 104hrs/30min 95hrs/30min 9 & 10 Homelite Blower Vac Homelit/Jaco bsen(ash) 32:1 9)21hrs/10min 10)27hrs/53min 31hrs/9min 28hrs/55min 52hrs/19min 56hrs/55min 11 & 12 Snapper HiVac Self-Propelled Mower Snapper (ashless) NMMA-BIA Service TC-W,32:1 11)151hrs/58min 12)100hrs/15min 101hrs/25min 141hrs/55min 253hrs/23min 242hrs/10min 13 & 14 Honda WB15 Water Transfer Pump Crankcase Honda SAE 10W40 Service SF 4 Stroke 13)-- 14)-- 210hrs/50min 207hrs/2min 210hrs/50min 207hrs/2min Test Unit Totals 934hrs/56min 370hrs/14min 1305hrs/30min Control Unit Totals 806hrs/17min 402hrs/13min 1208hrs/30min
Ethanol report very telling
After only 56 Hours "The fuel line on the test unit was visibly more swollen than the control unit." on the Homelite Blower Vac. No unit was monitored more than 406 Hours (only 2 and 1/2 weeks!) and most were tested for a lot less time. I don't know about you but I'd like my engine to last a little longer than that! Time that the ethanol is in contact with fuel line and carburator gaskets should be more a concern.
After only 56 Hours "The fuel line on the test unit was visibly more swollen than the control unit." on the Homelite Blower Vac. No unit was monitored more than 406 Hours (only 2 and 1/2 weeks!) and most were tested for a lot less time. I don't know about you but I'd like my engine to last a little longer than that! Time that the ethanol is in contact with fuel line and carburator gaskets should be more a concern.
Ethanol
Get used to it. Accordding to the Energy bill passed in Congress last December, 10% of the nations gasoline supply must come from ethanol. On the plus side, the mandated zones, such as Milwaukee, no longer must use ethanol. On the negative side, 10% on the nation must use Ethanol which the energy companies would not take it away from the past mandated supplies since we already are used to suffering. The legislature in Wisconsin tried to pass statewide Ethanol, but the people overwwlming rose up against the mandate and the legislature let it die. The government has put together some lucrative grants for wealthy politacally connected individuals curtosy of the taxpayers to build the Ethanol plants and supply us with the mandated Ethanol. The question is if it is so good, why does it have to be mandated? With Ethanol, you can expect to have problems with your small motors and less fuel economy. The fuel does not have as long a shelf life as straight gasoline which can be a problem with sailboats not using a great deal of gasoline. Break out the Stabil. Look at Mercury Marine's website becasue they put out a substantal amount of information when Wisconsin tried to shove the stuff down our throats. As Lincoln said, the government of the people, by the people, for the people is screwing the people in the name of the "corn producers". If it is a farm subsidy, put it in the agricultural bill, not energy bill. As long as the first Presidential primary is in IOWA, Idiot Of the Week Award, we are stuck with Ethanol. Off the soap box.
Get used to it. Accordding to the Energy bill passed in Congress last December, 10% of the nations gasoline supply must come from ethanol. On the plus side, the mandated zones, such as Milwaukee, no longer must use ethanol. On the negative side, 10% on the nation must use Ethanol which the energy companies would not take it away from the past mandated supplies since we already are used to suffering. The legislature in Wisconsin tried to pass statewide Ethanol, but the people overwwlming rose up against the mandate and the legislature let it die. The government has put together some lucrative grants for wealthy politacally connected individuals curtosy of the taxpayers to build the Ethanol plants and supply us with the mandated Ethanol. The question is if it is so good, why does it have to be mandated? With Ethanol, you can expect to have problems with your small motors and less fuel economy. The fuel does not have as long a shelf life as straight gasoline which can be a problem with sailboats not using a great deal of gasoline. Break out the Stabil. Look at Mercury Marine's website becasue they put out a substantal amount of information when Wisconsin tried to shove the stuff down our throats. As Lincoln said, the government of the people, by the people, for the people is screwing the people in the name of the "corn producers". If it is a farm subsidy, put it in the agricultural bill, not energy bill. As long as the first Presidential primary is in IOWA, Idiot Of the Week Award, we are stuck with Ethanol. Off the soap box.
Had I only known
About ten years ago I had a boat with an outboard auxiliary motor. Unbeknownst to me the local station where I filled the portable tank sold an ethanol or methanol mixed fuel. There was no posting concerning the fact that the fuel was a blend so I didn't know it was a mixed fuel. The upshot is that the stuff screwed up my 15 horse 2 stroke Merc to no end. Basically the insides was totally gummed up and the carb in particular was a mess. I had it rebuilt; chalking the problems up to age but after a while the same problems resurfaced (duh!). So I replaced the motor and read the owners manual which very clearly stated that the ethanol fuel will totally screw up the new engine and furthermore void the warranty. I asked the folks at the station I had been going to if the fuel they sold was a mix and they admitted it was but had failed to post that info at the pump. I coulda' pounded the idiot if I wouldn't have ended up in the hoosegow. The fact is: ethanol fuel will geek up your 2 stroker like nothing else. Do not use the stuff, period! Mike
About ten years ago I had a boat with an outboard auxiliary motor. Unbeknownst to me the local station where I filled the portable tank sold an ethanol or methanol mixed fuel. There was no posting concerning the fact that the fuel was a blend so I didn't know it was a mixed fuel. The upshot is that the stuff screwed up my 15 horse 2 stroke Merc to no end. Basically the insides was totally gummed up and the carb in particular was a mess. I had it rebuilt; chalking the problems up to age but after a while the same problems resurfaced (duh!). So I replaced the motor and read the owners manual which very clearly stated that the ethanol fuel will totally screw up the new engine and furthermore void the warranty. I asked the folks at the station I had been going to if the fuel they sold was a mix and they admitted it was but had failed to post that info at the pump. I coulda' pounded the idiot if I wouldn't have ended up in the hoosegow. The fact is: ethanol fuel will geek up your 2 stroker like nothing else. Do not use the stuff, period! Mike
Whats the big deal?
Quite a few years ago all the gas was a mix of ethanol and gas. I ran everything I had on it! Chainsaw, etc. with no problems! Actually I liked it and was dismayed when they went back to straight gas! Over the years, I have been adding a bottle of alcohol to my vehicle engines at fillups anyway, as in the trucks and cars, it helps keep the injectors clean! They all run like champs! I for one will like seeing it reappear!
Quite a few years ago all the gas was a mix of ethanol and gas. I ran everything I had on it! Chainsaw, etc. with no problems! Actually I liked it and was dismayed when they went back to straight gas! Over the years, I have been adding a bottle of alcohol to my vehicle engines at fillups anyway, as in the trucks and cars, it helps keep the injectors clean! They all run like champs! I for one will like seeing it reappear!
Dennis, you obviously don't have a plane
This change has enormous ramifications for small planes. Ask a pilot who has an STC and uses auto fuel. The lawyers will have a field day when the first plane crashes from engine failure due to this stupid regulation. Note the test procedure in the following from the EAA magazine: ALCOHOL AND AIRCRAFT DON'T MIX by Ken Knopp In our November/December 1997 issue we ran an article that contained - by the time we printed it - some outdated information, and we apologize for any problems. The article was "Is It OK to Use RFG In Your STC Without MTBE?" Mr. Ken Knopp, a fuels engineer, provided us with the following information which should clarify the issue. - Editor Many pilots may not be aware that, indeed, their aircraft and their lives may be in danger from another type of alcohol if autogas is being used under the current STCónot from the kind of alcohol we used in mixed drinks but the kind that the fuel industry has been adding to the automotive fuels we use. Automobile gasoline is currently approved for use on aircraft with appropriate STC’s that meet the American Society for Testing and Material (ASTM) specification D439 or D4814 with the following exception: the automobile gasoline cannot contain alcohol. Many older aircraft with an STC for automobile gasoline may only refer to ASTM D439; however, the FAA does recognize D4814 as an equivalent to D439. However, the operator of the aircraft must take action to assure that automobile gasoline with alcohol is not used. The alcohol may be added before distribution to meet Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) requirements for oxygen content by adding either methanol or ethanol. Two other oxygenates used are methyl-tertiary-butyl ether (MTBE) and ethyl-tertiary-butyl ether (ETBE), which are approved for use with an STC, since they do not have any of the dangerous effects of methanol and ethanol. There are three primary reasons for not using an automobile gasoline that contains methanol or ethanol. First, the addition of alcohol to gasoline adversely affects the volatility of the fuel, which could cause vapor lock. Second, alcohol present in automobile gasoline is not compatible with the rubber seals and materials used in aircraft. Phase separation is the last reason, which happens when the fuel is cooled as a result of the aircraft’s climbing to higher altitude. When the alcohol separates from the gasoline, it may carry water that has been held in solution and that cannot be handled by the sediment bowl. In order to avoid any of these problems, a simple test can be done to screen for the presence of methanol or ethanol. All that is required is a transparent container (something like a fuel strainer, test tube, or graduated cylinder) and a small amount of water. First, add a small amount of water to the container and mark the container at the water’s highest level. Next, add about nine parts gasoline to the one part water (i.e., one ounce of water, nine ounces of gasoline). Cover and shake to allow the water to mix with the gasoline. After mixing, let the water and gasoline settle. If alcohol is present in the gasoline, the water will absorb it, and the amount of water will appear to increase, indicating the gasoline should not be used in the aircraft. However, if the water level remains the same, no alcohol is present in the gasoline, and it can be used in the aircraft. Mr. Knopp is a research engineer at the FAA Technical Center working with propulsion and fuel issues for the Airport and Aircraft Safety Research and Development Division.
This change has enormous ramifications for small planes. Ask a pilot who has an STC and uses auto fuel. The lawyers will have a field day when the first plane crashes from engine failure due to this stupid regulation. Note the test procedure in the following from the EAA magazine: ALCOHOL AND AIRCRAFT DON'T MIX by Ken Knopp In our November/December 1997 issue we ran an article that contained - by the time we printed it - some outdated information, and we apologize for any problems. The article was "Is It OK to Use RFG In Your STC Without MTBE?" Mr. Ken Knopp, a fuels engineer, provided us with the following information which should clarify the issue. - Editor Many pilots may not be aware that, indeed, their aircraft and their lives may be in danger from another type of alcohol if autogas is being used under the current STCónot from the kind of alcohol we used in mixed drinks but the kind that the fuel industry has been adding to the automotive fuels we use. Automobile gasoline is currently approved for use on aircraft with appropriate STC’s that meet the American Society for Testing and Material (ASTM) specification D439 or D4814 with the following exception: the automobile gasoline cannot contain alcohol. Many older aircraft with an STC for automobile gasoline may only refer to ASTM D439; however, the FAA does recognize D4814 as an equivalent to D439. However, the operator of the aircraft must take action to assure that automobile gasoline with alcohol is not used. The alcohol may be added before distribution to meet Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) requirements for oxygen content by adding either methanol or ethanol. Two other oxygenates used are methyl-tertiary-butyl ether (MTBE) and ethyl-tertiary-butyl ether (ETBE), which are approved for use with an STC, since they do not have any of the dangerous effects of methanol and ethanol. There are three primary reasons for not using an automobile gasoline that contains methanol or ethanol. First, the addition of alcohol to gasoline adversely affects the volatility of the fuel, which could cause vapor lock. Second, alcohol present in automobile gasoline is not compatible with the rubber seals and materials used in aircraft. Phase separation is the last reason, which happens when the fuel is cooled as a result of the aircraft’s climbing to higher altitude. When the alcohol separates from the gasoline, it may carry water that has been held in solution and that cannot be handled by the sediment bowl. In order to avoid any of these problems, a simple test can be done to screen for the presence of methanol or ethanol. All that is required is a transparent container (something like a fuel strainer, test tube, or graduated cylinder) and a small amount of water. First, add a small amount of water to the container and mark the container at the water’s highest level. Next, add about nine parts gasoline to the one part water (i.e., one ounce of water, nine ounces of gasoline). Cover and shake to allow the water to mix with the gasoline. After mixing, let the water and gasoline settle. If alcohol is present in the gasoline, the water will absorb it, and the amount of water will appear to increase, indicating the gasoline should not be used in the aircraft. However, if the water level remains the same, no alcohol is present in the gasoline, and it can be used in the aircraft. Mr. Knopp is a research engineer at the FAA Technical Center working with propulsion and fuel issues for the Airport and Aircraft Safety Research and Development Division.
We've had it for years.
Sunoco has been producing and selling gasoline with 10% ethanol for many many years. This type of gasoline cuts toxic carbon monoxide emmissions by up to 30%. Ethanol is a natural substance, and acts as gasoline antifreeze as well. I've used it for years in my '74 Chysler 2-stroke outboard, 2-stroke chainsaw, 4-stroke snowthrower, and 4-stroke lawnmower with no problems ever. It's another way of cleaning up the air we breath and take for granted.
Sunoco has been producing and selling gasoline with 10% ethanol for many many years. This type of gasoline cuts toxic carbon monoxide emmissions by up to 30%. Ethanol is a natural substance, and acts as gasoline antifreeze as well. I've used it for years in my '74 Chysler 2-stroke outboard, 2-stroke chainsaw, 4-stroke snowthrower, and 4-stroke lawnmower with no problems ever. It's another way of cleaning up the air we breath and take for granted.
Was not the question
Will gasoline with ethanol attack fiberglass fuel tanks? If I recall cars and airplanes do not have fiberglass fuel tanks boat do. According to Boat U.S. the answer is yes! there is a compatiblity problem where ethanol will cause the tank to leak. Fair Winds Cap'n Dave
Will gasoline with ethanol attack fiberglass fuel tanks? If I recall cars and airplanes do not have fiberglass fuel tanks boat do. According to Boat U.S. the answer is yes! there is a compatiblity problem where ethanol will cause the tank to leak. Fair Winds Cap'n Dave
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