EPA Discharge Permit Requirement for Recreational
- Thread starter Ken Palmer
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Oh Ken, have you opened a can of worms.....
A few weeks ago I too posted what pleasure boaters might be faced with regarding this discharge stuff and many of the readers of this site burned me at the stake for, 1) bringing up political topics on this forum, and 2) misinterpreting the information (that was completely false). Ha! Ha! I'm glad you brought it up again though! Brace yourself for incoming. Dick
A few weeks ago I too posted what pleasure boaters might be faced with regarding this discharge stuff and many of the readers of this site burned me at the stake for, 1) bringing up political topics on this forum, and 2) misinterpreting the information (that was completely false). Ha! Ha! I'm glad you brought it up again though! Brace yourself for incoming. Dick
Brace YOURself, Dick ...
We all remember your post and you WERE misrepresenting the situation as Peggy pointed out. Ken is simply posting a link to a site that asks for support of legislative action that would protect recreational boaters from a court ruling that would require us to obtain additional permits for our boats. Since his post is not making a political statement and it is definitely of interest to all of us as sailors, I hardly think he is going to get roasted. I remember that your post implied that our elected representatives were behind a legislative action to require that recreational boaters obtain the permit in question when in fact it is an un-elected judge in the court who ruled on a suit brought on by environmental groups against commercial shippers who discharge ballast water from huge ships and the judge over-stepped the parameters of the suit in ruling that even recreational boaters should be required to obtain additional permits. You also made derogatory statements about our elected representatives, when it is they who are introducing legislation that would exempt us from the requirement. But put that aside, if you were to go in the political forum, you would find that there are numerous sailors who DO side with the environmental groups who would love to have boaters regulated and they are just as upset over wealthy Americans who got tax breaks. So let's look at that side of the issue. What possible harm is there in having our bilges, ballasts (for those of you with water ballasted boats), cooling systems, and holding tanks regulated by the EPA for the protection of the environment that we enjoy from each boat we own and for every state we use them in. So what if there is a permit fee that is charged? We are part of the wealthy elite that should be paying more in taxes and fees anyway! Give me a reason why we should be exempt!
We all remember your post and you WERE misrepresenting the situation as Peggy pointed out. Ken is simply posting a link to a site that asks for support of legislative action that would protect recreational boaters from a court ruling that would require us to obtain additional permits for our boats. Since his post is not making a political statement and it is definitely of interest to all of us as sailors, I hardly think he is going to get roasted. I remember that your post implied that our elected representatives were behind a legislative action to require that recreational boaters obtain the permit in question when in fact it is an un-elected judge in the court who ruled on a suit brought on by environmental groups against commercial shippers who discharge ballast water from huge ships and the judge over-stepped the parameters of the suit in ruling that even recreational boaters should be required to obtain additional permits. You also made derogatory statements about our elected representatives, when it is they who are introducing legislation that would exempt us from the requirement. But put that aside, if you were to go in the political forum, you would find that there are numerous sailors who DO side with the environmental groups who would love to have boaters regulated and they are just as upset over wealthy Americans who got tax breaks. So let's look at that side of the issue. What possible harm is there in having our bilges, ballasts (for those of you with water ballasted boats), cooling systems, and holding tanks regulated by the EPA for the protection of the environment that we enjoy from each boat we own and for every state we use them in. So what if there is a permit fee that is charged? We are part of the wealthy elite that should be paying more in taxes and fees anyway! Give me a reason why we should be exempt!
The question is to support it or oppose it.
The Canadians recently had a tiffle up in BC about proposed new laws that finally got calmed down. They wanted all boats to pump out unless they were 3 miles offshore (look at a chart of British Columbia) plus there are ZERO pumpout stations. Oh, they also contemplated having everyone log not only their pumpouts, but also their deposits INTO the holding tanks, time speed, distance, would've required GPSs in heads!!! I'm still torn on this one, but would much rather, as did the BC / Canadians, see the sewage systems repaired than pick on boaters. If every boat in every marina went out every weekend (like, THAT would EVER happen, right?) and everyone flushed, it'd still be a drop in the ocean.
The Canadians recently had a tiffle up in BC about proposed new laws that finally got calmed down. They wanted all boats to pump out unless they were 3 miles offshore (look at a chart of British Columbia) plus there are ZERO pumpout stations. Oh, they also contemplated having everyone log not only their pumpouts, but also their deposits INTO the holding tanks, time speed, distance, would've required GPSs in heads!!! I'm still torn on this one, but would much rather, as did the BC / Canadians, see the sewage systems repaired than pick on boaters. If every boat in every marina went out every weekend (like, THAT would EVER happen, right?) and everyone flushed, it'd still be a drop in the ocean.
I'm surprised, Stu ...
if you were consistent with your ideals, we should be regulated to protect the environment and taxed (or pay fees) to cover the burden. We are the wealthy elite that should be paying our way, aren't we?
if you were consistent with your ideals, we should be regulated to protect the environment and taxed (or pay fees) to cover the burden. We are the wealthy elite that should be paying our way, aren't we?
who's on first?
It's not the EPA (who doesn't propose or enact legislation) that created this situation but rather our beloved Congress. EPA clearly views this as impractical, unenforceable and needless since they never proposed implementing regulations. Now along comes some misguided tree-hugger plantiff who manages to convince a court of the obvious - that no implementing regs were ever promulgated, and here we are debating some frivilous lawsuit which will be appealed forever. Worry about the important stuff...
It's not the EPA (who doesn't propose or enact legislation) that created this situation but rather our beloved Congress. EPA clearly views this as impractical, unenforceable and needless since they never proposed implementing regulations. Now along comes some misguided tree-hugger plantiff who manages to convince a court of the obvious - that no implementing regs were ever promulgated, and here we are debating some frivilous lawsuit which will be appealed forever. Worry about the important stuff...
Don, how is this Congress?
They didn't write any laws that would subject recreational boaters to this potential regulatory action. This is a judge who has decided that recreational boaters should be subjected to the same type of regulations that large commercial ships be subjected to. Maybe somebody could shed some light on who appointed the judge ... Also, as far as I can tell, there are environmental groups and some states that would also be in favor of regulating us. As far as I can tell, some members of Congress are attempting to pass legislation that would protect us from over-regulation.
They didn't write any laws that would subject recreational boaters to this potential regulatory action. This is a judge who has decided that recreational boaters should be subjected to the same type of regulations that large commercial ships be subjected to. Maybe somebody could shed some light on who appointed the judge ... Also, as far as I can tell, there are environmental groups and some states that would also be in favor of regulating us. As far as I can tell, some members of Congress are attempting to pass legislation that would protect us from over-regulation.
Scott
I quoted below the first para again for clarification. Congress and not regulatory agencies (such as EPA) writes and promulgates statutes. The Clean Water Act is a statute passed by Congress and amended in 1986 which, among other things, requires all discharges including those from boats to be permitted (a statutory requirement, not regulatory). EPA conversely is supposed to have written implementing regs pursuant to that statute. As they did not, someone choose to sue and this is the result. Maybe a minor point but it's all too often we misplace blame for stupidity: "For 34 years the federal Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has exempted discharges from recreational boats from the Clean Water Act permit system. Regretfully, a recent court ruling cancelled this permit exemption. EPA is required by the court decision to develop and implement by September 30, 2008 a national permit system for ALL vessels in the United States for a variety of normal operational discharges."
I quoted below the first para again for clarification. Congress and not regulatory agencies (such as EPA) writes and promulgates statutes. The Clean Water Act is a statute passed by Congress and amended in 1986 which, among other things, requires all discharges including those from boats to be permitted (a statutory requirement, not regulatory). EPA conversely is supposed to have written implementing regs pursuant to that statute. As they did not, someone choose to sue and this is the result. Maybe a minor point but it's all too often we misplace blame for stupidity: "For 34 years the federal Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has exempted discharges from recreational boats from the Clean Water Act permit system. Regretfully, a recent court ruling cancelled this permit exemption. EPA is required by the court decision to develop and implement by September 30, 2008 a national permit system for ALL vessels in the United States for a variety of normal operational discharges."
Wow *yks
I didn't know about the other posts and the controversy going on. The only thing that passed through my mind was the Great Lakes are in jeopardy because of the commercial freighters and tankers dumping their balast water into our lakes. This causes untold amounts of plant and wildlife not indiginous to our lakes. For a judge to say that preasure boaters should not be exempt is just going overboard. The pleasure boaters are such a small part of the problem and it would be an impossible law to enforce, just cause more burocacy. So go my 2-cents.
I didn't know about the other posts and the controversy going on. The only thing that passed through my mind was the Great Lakes are in jeopardy because of the commercial freighters and tankers dumping their balast water into our lakes. This causes untold amounts of plant and wildlife not indiginous to our lakes. For a judge to say that preasure boaters should not be exempt is just going overboard. The pleasure boaters are such a small part of the problem and it would be an impossible law to enforce, just cause more burocacy. So go my 2-cents.
Your want more regulation, Scott?
Scott, you don't know me or what I believe. While I applaud the EPA for the environment work it's done, especially in the chemical, pulp & paper, and numerous other industries, the cumulative amount of pleasure boat bilge water discharge in this country is miniscule. And while I don't intend to make this a political issue here, I, for one, do not want more regulations and fees for something that's going to occur anyway with no enviromental impact, particularly knowing the money collected will go into the public coffers and do nothing for pleasure boaters being taxed and regulated. Seriously Scott, do I detect some sarchasim in your tone or are you a true card carrying demo....?.... ooops, I shouldn't say that word in this forum. Have a nice day. Dick PS. I didn't misinterpret anything but if I am a little skeptical of elected officials, well, remember the old saying, "If the shoe fits......"
Scott, you don't know me or what I believe. While I applaud the EPA for the environment work it's done, especially in the chemical, pulp & paper, and numerous other industries, the cumulative amount of pleasure boat bilge water discharge in this country is miniscule. And while I don't intend to make this a political issue here, I, for one, do not want more regulations and fees for something that's going to occur anyway with no enviromental impact, particularly knowing the money collected will go into the public coffers and do nothing for pleasure boaters being taxed and regulated. Seriously Scott, do I detect some sarchasim in your tone or are you a true card carrying demo....?.... ooops, I shouldn't say that word in this forum. Have a nice day. Dick PS. I didn't misinterpret anything but if I am a little skeptical of elected officials, well, remember the old saying, "If the shoe fits......"
Clean up our act
Stu wrote that if we all pumped overboard that "it'd still be a drop in the ocean." Well, actually it would be sh*t in the ocean. There is no reason why all boats should not be required to use pumpout facilities unless they are well (at least three miles) off shore. For crying out loud I am a Republican and even I can see how badly we are treating our planet! I would happily pay a tax or fee to help clean up our oceans.
Stu wrote that if we all pumped overboard that "it'd still be a drop in the ocean." Well, actually it would be sh*t in the ocean. There is no reason why all boats should not be required to use pumpout facilities unless they are well (at least three miles) off shore. For crying out loud I am a Republican and even I can see how badly we are treating our planet! I would happily pay a tax or fee to help clean up our oceans.
It's the comparisons, gentlemen
between boaters being singled out BY the very same government that continues to pump the land based sewage overboard in OUR waters. I agree it's no sense to add anything (hmm, try to live without leaving ANY footprint!) but the hypocrisy of the same gang that pumps sewage from homes and then blames boaters appalls me. The very same one, ND, that do NOT provide the very pumpout facilities they mandate. And then send THAT sewage back to their "plants" that all gets dumped out anyway. You may choose, or not, to read about the Canadian nonsense. It IS different on the American side, and pumpouts are available. THAT was the issue I was discussing. If you're in non-tidal area, or a lake, NOTHING should go into the water. But the Canadian studies indicated that major tidal flushing action makes boaters' contributions negligible, whereas their cities are THE polluters.
between boaters being singled out BY the very same government that continues to pump the land based sewage overboard in OUR waters. I agree it's no sense to add anything (hmm, try to live without leaving ANY footprint!) but the hypocrisy of the same gang that pumps sewage from homes and then blames boaters appalls me. The very same one, ND, that do NOT provide the very pumpout facilities they mandate. And then send THAT sewage back to their "plants" that all gets dumped out anyway. You may choose, or not, to read about the Canadian nonsense. It IS different on the American side, and pumpouts are available. THAT was the issue I was discussing. If you're in non-tidal area, or a lake, NOTHING should go into the water. But the Canadian studies indicated that major tidal flushing action makes boaters' contributions negligible, whereas their cities are THE polluters.
Randy, all boats ARE require to hold or treat
toilet waste. It's been illegal to flush a toilet directly overboard or dump a tank in all inland waters and all coastal waters inside the "3 mile limit" for 27 years.
toilet waste. It's been illegal to flush a toilet directly overboard or dump a tank in all inland waters and all coastal waters inside the "3 mile limit" for 27 years.
Our Gov't's Hypocrisy on Discharge Kills Me !
Here's a few excerpts from the Portland, Maine Press herald from just a few months ago! Quote Press Herald: "Every time a steady rain falls on Maine, millions of gallons of untreated sewage and storm water overflow collection pipes and spill into streams and coastal waters. More than half of that pollution pours out of pipes scattered around the city of Portland. Overflows in the city last year totaled about 1.8 BILLION gallons - about 30 million gallons for every inch of rain. Portland was supposed to begin a three-phase, 15-year cleanup plan in 1993. But as of the end of 2006, two years before the original deadline, the city had eliminated just six of 33 targeted overflows, according to the state." My Comment: Portland is perhaps one of the most "liberal" cities in the US besides Berkley CA and a few others. Where is the outrage over 1.8 BILLION gallons of RAW sewage? Where is the ACTION instead of the LOUD VOICES of these folks telling others how to live. They tell me what light bulbs I should be using in my house or that I need to throw away the expensive Lectrsan sewage TREATMENT system I installed at a HUGE expense to help protect the environment? Quote Press Herald: "When we have (overflows), we're getting human waste, we're getting storm water and we're getting industrial effluent. It does have an effect on the ecosystem," said Joseph Payne, bay keeper for the nonprofit Friends of Casco Bay" "Why haven't they made progress when 36 other cities have?" said Sen. John Nutting, D-Leeds." More of my comments: That's a very good question coming from a liberal and supposedly "environmentally friendly" senator from one of the most liberal states in the country. The so called "environmentally friendly" Democrats have been in total power in the state of Maine since 1972 and they are asking why nothing has been done? Hmmm do they really care about the environment? Apparantly not! Making Casco Bay an NDZ is a total scam and a bunch of feel good BS to help a particular party look as if they do something when they really do nothing. The same bay, the above article was referencing, is the one made an NDZ (No Discharge Zone) just last year while our Democraticly ruled state government decided to look the other way on 1.8 BILLION gallons of raw sewage! When will the feel good attacks on boaters and other small segment groups stop and real legislation be accomplished? The Dems and Repubs are NO different IMHO and it is no clearer than the hypocrisy witnessed here in Maine. We should be one of the cleanest states in the country, if you base your facts on things like Repubs are anti-environment and the Dems are pro environment. Maine is also the state where the Green party was founded and we have many Greens in our state govt. These are folks who are way, way, way to the left of the left when it comes to governing, supposedly the environment and being anti-capatilist are their driving issues. One of them, a big wig in Maine government, is from, of all places Portland! 1.8 BILLION gallons and liberal "environmentally friendly" Maine has done nothing except to go after a few boaters who already complied with the laws far better than our own state! The treated waste coming out of my Lectrasan was far cleaner than ANY of the 1.8 BILLION gallons dumped into Casco Bay by our own GOVERNMENT!!!!!!! With the highest taxes in the country you'd think Maine would have the funds to fix our sewer systems but there is usually NO real action and only a bunch of empty talk and attacks on the "low hanging fruit" or the "easy targets". They attack these small segments of the population, like us evil boaters, because it's easy and it looks good in campaigns & in 30 second sound bites. Making themselves look good is priority #1 and it's usually done at the cost of the environment & in a class warfare style! After all we boaters are rich & we can all afford to rip our Lectrasan units out, which are cleaner than what the state dumps into the bay, because we are evil and "stole" our money from the "poor". Disclaimer: I am not a democrat or a republican and think both parties are full of hypocrite fat cat empty words and BS.
Here's a few excerpts from the Portland, Maine Press herald from just a few months ago! Quote Press Herald: "Every time a steady rain falls on Maine, millions of gallons of untreated sewage and storm water overflow collection pipes and spill into streams and coastal waters. More than half of that pollution pours out of pipes scattered around the city of Portland. Overflows in the city last year totaled about 1.8 BILLION gallons - about 30 million gallons for every inch of rain. Portland was supposed to begin a three-phase, 15-year cleanup plan in 1993. But as of the end of 2006, two years before the original deadline, the city had eliminated just six of 33 targeted overflows, according to the state." My Comment: Portland is perhaps one of the most "liberal" cities in the US besides Berkley CA and a few others. Where is the outrage over 1.8 BILLION gallons of RAW sewage? Where is the ACTION instead of the LOUD VOICES of these folks telling others how to live. They tell me what light bulbs I should be using in my house or that I need to throw away the expensive Lectrsan sewage TREATMENT system I installed at a HUGE expense to help protect the environment? Quote Press Herald: "When we have (overflows), we're getting human waste, we're getting storm water and we're getting industrial effluent. It does have an effect on the ecosystem," said Joseph Payne, bay keeper for the nonprofit Friends of Casco Bay" "Why haven't they made progress when 36 other cities have?" said Sen. John Nutting, D-Leeds." More of my comments: That's a very good question coming from a liberal and supposedly "environmentally friendly" senator from one of the most liberal states in the country. The so called "environmentally friendly" Democrats have been in total power in the state of Maine since 1972 and they are asking why nothing has been done? Hmmm do they really care about the environment? Apparantly not! Making Casco Bay an NDZ is a total scam and a bunch of feel good BS to help a particular party look as if they do something when they really do nothing. The same bay, the above article was referencing, is the one made an NDZ (No Discharge Zone) just last year while our Democraticly ruled state government decided to look the other way on 1.8 BILLION gallons of raw sewage! When will the feel good attacks on boaters and other small segment groups stop and real legislation be accomplished? The Dems and Repubs are NO different IMHO and it is no clearer than the hypocrisy witnessed here in Maine. We should be one of the cleanest states in the country, if you base your facts on things like Repubs are anti-environment and the Dems are pro environment. Maine is also the state where the Green party was founded and we have many Greens in our state govt. These are folks who are way, way, way to the left of the left when it comes to governing, supposedly the environment and being anti-capatilist are their driving issues. One of them, a big wig in Maine government, is from, of all places Portland! 1.8 BILLION gallons and liberal "environmentally friendly" Maine has done nothing except to go after a few boaters who already complied with the laws far better than our own state! The treated waste coming out of my Lectrasan was far cleaner than ANY of the 1.8 BILLION gallons dumped into Casco Bay by our own GOVERNMENT!!!!!!! With the highest taxes in the country you'd think Maine would have the funds to fix our sewer systems but there is usually NO real action and only a bunch of empty talk and attacks on the "low hanging fruit" or the "easy targets". They attack these small segments of the population, like us evil boaters, because it's easy and it looks good in campaigns & in 30 second sound bites. Making themselves look good is priority #1 and it's usually done at the cost of the environment & in a class warfare style! After all we boaters are rich & we can all afford to rip our Lectrasan units out, which are cleaner than what the state dumps into the bay, because we are evil and "stole" our money from the "poor". Disclaimer: I am not a democrat or a republican and think both parties are full of hypocrite fat cat empty words and BS.
Puzzled
I am relatively new to sailing/boating, being a sailboat owner for a little over a year. Since I started, I've been reading some sailing magazines and looking at boat web sites regularly as I love this new interest of mine. What puzzles me is this: I've noticed regular snide remarks against almost any form of government regulation. This is both on web sites and in sailing magazines. Yet look at what is happening to the seas that sailors get so much pleasure from: Major fish species are disappearing. Coral reefs are in danger of dying worldwide. Pregnant women are told not to eat certain species of fish due to mercury content. Do people not see some sort of contradiction here?
I am relatively new to sailing/boating, being a sailboat owner for a little over a year. Since I started, I've been reading some sailing magazines and looking at boat web sites regularly as I love this new interest of mine. What puzzles me is this: I've noticed regular snide remarks against almost any form of government regulation. This is both on web sites and in sailing magazines. Yet look at what is happening to the seas that sailors get so much pleasure from: Major fish species are disappearing. Coral reefs are in danger of dying worldwide. Pregnant women are told not to eat certain species of fish due to mercury content. Do people not see some sort of contradiction here?
The contradiction, John, is in the difference
between what they say (and who they threaten) compared to what they actually DO! Given your list of bad things happning out there (like coral reefs) they haven't DONE much of anything, have they? Pollution still streams out of every sewage treatment (sic) plant. See Maine Sail's post. And now they're threatening us recreational boaters with draconian and useless stuff, when they SHOULD be doing something about the reefs, and your other items. That's the issue here.
between what they say (and who they threaten) compared to what they actually DO! Given your list of bad things happning out there (like coral reefs) they haven't DONE much of anything, have they? Pollution still streams out of every sewage treatment (sic) plant. See Maine Sail's post. And now they're threatening us recreational boaters with draconian and useless stuff, when they SHOULD be doing something about the reefs, and your other items. That's the issue here.
my thoughts on this threas
NOn one is FOR pollution. some do more to control it than others. some care more than others, some are more sensitive to you than others. some are more responsible than others. We can't even expect a power boater to control his wake, so how can we police ourselves? we need some kind of control. However, no politician, dem or rep or green can or will do much to control it if they want to continue to receive money form K street. so we cannot count on them unless we can line them up against a wall blindfolded... I don't want you discharging your sewage if I am in an anchorage close to you during a slack tide, (or anytime I am down current form you) nor do I want you to discharge your sewage if I am following you, where ever. Without laws, rules, and fines or fees or consequences, how can I make that happen? I agree that the amount of sewage a typical recreational boater discharges is minimal and easily absorbed by the oceans eco systems. but as someone said earlier on this thread, we are easy targets. driving across the bay bridge, (rt 50)I have witnessed, as I am sure many of you have, wide oily and black wakes of unknown substances from merchant ships making their way to Baltimore. They should be the target. I don't want to sail through that stuff... I am a diver as well as a sailor. I have dived in seas that have been over fished and over polluted, (why I was there is for another thread) Until we have enough political clout to effectively lobby companies like Purdue, GM, Dupont or the pulp wood companies in Maine, or even our own local sewage treatment plants...we are, well, just pis*ing in the ocean. like most of us do during the mid watch.
NOn one is FOR pollution. some do more to control it than others. some care more than others, some are more sensitive to you than others. some are more responsible than others. We can't even expect a power boater to control his wake, so how can we police ourselves? we need some kind of control. However, no politician, dem or rep or green can or will do much to control it if they want to continue to receive money form K street. so we cannot count on them unless we can line them up against a wall blindfolded... I don't want you discharging your sewage if I am in an anchorage close to you during a slack tide, (or anytime I am down current form you) nor do I want you to discharge your sewage if I am following you, where ever. Without laws, rules, and fines or fees or consequences, how can I make that happen? I agree that the amount of sewage a typical recreational boater discharges is minimal and easily absorbed by the oceans eco systems. but as someone said earlier on this thread, we are easy targets. driving across the bay bridge, (rt 50)I have witnessed, as I am sure many of you have, wide oily and black wakes of unknown substances from merchant ships making their way to Baltimore. They should be the target. I don't want to sail through that stuff... I am a diver as well as a sailor. I have dived in seas that have been over fished and over polluted, (why I was there is for another thread) Until we have enough political clout to effectively lobby companies like Purdue, GM, Dupont or the pulp wood companies in Maine, or even our own local sewage treatment plants...we are, well, just pis*ing in the ocean. like most of us do during the mid watch.
my thoughts on this threas
NO one is FOR pollution. Some do more to control it than others. Some care more than others, some are more sensitive to you than others. Some are more responsible than others. We can't even expect a power boater to control his wake, so how can we police ourselves? We need some kind of control. However, no politician, dem or rep or green can or will do much to control it if they want to continue to receive money form K street. So we cannot count on them unless we can line them up against a wall blindfolded... I don't want you discharging your sewage if I am in an anchorage close to you during a slack tide, (or anytime I am down current form you) nor do I want you to discharge your sewage if I am following you, where ever, in close proximity. Without laws, rules, and fines or fees or consequences, how can I make that happen? I agree that the amount of sewage a typical recreational boater discharges is minimal and easily absorbed by the oceans eco systems. But as someone said earlier on this thread, we are easy targets. Driving across the bay bridge in Maryland, (rt 50)I have witnessed, as I am sure many of you have, miles of wide oily and black wakes of unknown substances from merchant ships making their way to Baltimore. They should be the target. I don't want to sail through that stuff... I am a diver as well as a sailor. I have dived in seas that have been over fished and over polluted, (why I was there is for another thread) Until we have enough political clout to effectively lobby companies like Purdue, GM, Dupont or the pulp wood companies in Maine, or even our own local sewage treatment plants...we are, well, just pis*ing in the ocean. like most of us do during the mid watch.
NO one is FOR pollution. Some do more to control it than others. Some care more than others, some are more sensitive to you than others. Some are more responsible than others. We can't even expect a power boater to control his wake, so how can we police ourselves? We need some kind of control. However, no politician, dem or rep or green can or will do much to control it if they want to continue to receive money form K street. So we cannot count on them unless we can line them up against a wall blindfolded... I don't want you discharging your sewage if I am in an anchorage close to you during a slack tide, (or anytime I am down current form you) nor do I want you to discharge your sewage if I am following you, where ever, in close proximity. Without laws, rules, and fines or fees or consequences, how can I make that happen? I agree that the amount of sewage a typical recreational boater discharges is minimal and easily absorbed by the oceans eco systems. But as someone said earlier on this thread, we are easy targets. Driving across the bay bridge in Maryland, (rt 50)I have witnessed, as I am sure many of you have, miles of wide oily and black wakes of unknown substances from merchant ships making their way to Baltimore. They should be the target. I don't want to sail through that stuff... I am a diver as well as a sailor. I have dived in seas that have been over fished and over polluted, (why I was there is for another thread) Until we have enough political clout to effectively lobby companies like Purdue, GM, Dupont or the pulp wood companies in Maine, or even our own local sewage treatment plants...we are, well, just pis*ing in the ocean. like most of us do during the mid watch.
Stu
Stu I reluctantly took your quote here [below] as an example of how things quickly can get turned around to confuse who did what. If I infer incorrecly what you said, please forgive me but it appears to lump the entire government into one big "they" as if every government entity was out to get us. I am all for minimal invervention but let's get this one correctly - the government (in the form of EPA) made a concerted attempt to exclude boaters from these requirements. It was an NGO which filed suit and gained an apparently friendly judge. Despite all this, it seems certain "they" aka the government, will continue to seek exclusions for boaters. "And now they're threatening us recreational boaters with draconian and useless stuff, when they SHOULD be doing something about the reefs, and your other items. That's the issue here."
Stu I reluctantly took your quote here [below] as an example of how things quickly can get turned around to confuse who did what. If I infer incorrecly what you said, please forgive me but it appears to lump the entire government into one big "they" as if every government entity was out to get us. I am all for minimal invervention but let's get this one correctly - the government (in the form of EPA) made a concerted attempt to exclude boaters from these requirements. It was an NGO which filed suit and gained an apparently friendly judge. Despite all this, it seems certain "they" aka the government, will continue to seek exclusions for boaters. "And now they're threatening us recreational boaters with draconian and useless stuff, when they SHOULD be doing something about the reefs, and your other items. That's the issue here."
there is a little point eveyone is missing
The law would require every boat to have an epa certificate regarding its dischage and how things are handled on that vessel. so you would get to pay for a permit for your head! The recreational boating act now proposed should be passed
The law would require every boat to have an epa certificate regarding its dischage and how things are handled on that vessel. so you would get to pay for a permit for your head! The recreational boating act now proposed should be passed
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