EPA approved E15!

[sinnettc]

Don't shoot the messenger! . . .

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39653350/ns/us_news-environment/

Looks like nobody but the corn lobby wanted it though.

 

[kloudie1]

The good thing about this foolishness is that the E-15 can't be sold to cars older than 2007.. and the stations "who elect to sell it" will have to have clearly marked and separate pumps.. Sounds like us folks can breathe a little easier about the marine market.. My newest car is an '03 and since it has only about 45000 miles on it, I will have it for a while yet.

 

[Ross]

I have been driving an '87 volvo for 15 years and I haven't seen any changes of gas mileage or maintainance requirements with the introduction of ethanol. My lawn mower is older than my car and it does fine on this stuff.

 

[KD3PC]

Only took a few months of 10% to dissolve almost the entire fuel system on my old Stihl chainsaw...

To Ross, my older MB has had no problems with the 10%, but the 99 Suburban has had almost all of the injection soft parts replaced and needs injector cleaner at least 4-5 times a year. I suspect the swiss/german cars were built a bit better than comparable American ones.

 

[catsailor]

Only took a few months of 10% to dissolve almost the entire fuel system on my old Stihl chainsaw...

To Ross, my older MB has had no problems with the 10%, but the 99 Suburban has had almost all of the injection soft parts replaced and needs injector cleaner at least 4-5 times a year. I suspect the swiss/german cars were built a bit better than comparable American ones.

Another ill thought out plan - and even more poorly implemented by the EPA and this President...for which we will be paying a long time

First, I agree that e-xx gasolines are a political solution and not a good solution. I wrote an artical for Practical Sailor reviewing additives and showing that none can really help with the separation issues. That said....

Some neutral parties have argued, and they may be right, that the water/gas separation issues may be less, as e-15 can hold more water before it separates. On the other hand, I say that it will more agressivly absorb water.

That won't help the small non-oxygen sensor engines that will now run that much more lean.

We'll see.

 

[Cpt. Jon]

I have torn apart the carbs in my Yamaha 115 2 stroke outboard, push lawnmower, and 4500W generator all very recently. It only takes about 2 weeks for the ethenal to start to seperate and start making a mess of things. I now put ethenal treatment right in the gas cans as I fill them, but I'm not sure if that will work well enough or not. I guess the best thing is to run everything dry and empty the carbs out completely after each use if it's going to sit for a short while, but with my 2-strokes running it dry means no lube since they are premixed. My cars haven't noticed a difference I don't think, though I run lucas in every tank of my '97 Caddy (our newest car)...

 

[Cpt. Jon]

I have torn apart the carbs in my Yamaha 115 2 stroke outboard, push lawnmower, and 4500W generator all very recently. It only takes about 2 weeks for the ethenal to start to seperate and start making a mess of things. I now put ethenal treatment right in the gas cans as I fill them, but I'm not sure if that will work well enough or not. I guess the best thing is to run everything dry and empty the carbs out completely after each use if it's going to sit for a short while, but with my 2-strokes running it dry means no lube since they are premixed. My cars haven't noticed a difference I don't think, though I run lucas in every tank of my '97 Caddy (our newest car)...

 

[Ross]

I don't get this water gas separation. I didn't use my lawn mower from november 2009 until august 2010. It started and ran perfectly, on the gas that was in it when I put it away, when I put it back in service. I didn't run my volvo from January until April 2010 because I was out of commission. again it started and ran perfectly on the gas that was in it when I put it away. How long before gasoline with ethanol goes bad? and what are the symptoms?

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Marine engines are exempt from E-15

However, that's gonna mean that marinas will be the ONLY places you can buy E-10 gas...eliminating any ability to save a little money by buying gas for your outboard or other trailer boat at your local gas station.

If they don't get you going in, they'll get you somewhere else.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Y'all should find this useful...

Today's copy of Soundings DISPATCH just landed in my mailbox...Headlined "Ethanol and Winter Storage." I haven't read it, just passing it along.

http://www.soundingsonline.com/news/dispatches/612-oct-14-2010/267622-ethanol-a-winterizing-guide

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

There seems to be some misunderstanding which should be corrected, among them where one can buy E15 fuel.

What EPA did was grant a waiver allowing the use of E15 only in certain vehicles. Boats are excluded although you can use it at your discretion). Also, gas stations will still sell existing type fuel so you will still be able to purchase the existing grades, which we are all used to buying, anywhere. Only at service stations electing to sell E15 fuel will it be available and clearly marked to differentiate it from conventional gasoline.

Nothing to panic about.

 

[KD3PC]

don...

so are you saying that if no one buys it...it may go away on it's own....I just can't see many stations adding a separate pump for this new goo...

 

[petersea]

There seems to be some misunderstanding which should be corrected, among them where one can buy E15 fuel.

What EPA did was grant a waiver allowing the use of E15 only in certain vehicles. Boats are excluded although you can use it at your discretion). Also, gas stations will still sell existing type fuel so you will still be able to purchase the existing grades, which we are all used to buying, anywhere. Only at service stations electing to sell E15 fuel will it be available and clearly marked to differentiate it from conventional gasoline.

Nothing to panic about.

Nothing to panic about YET ! Sorry Don this is typical of how this all started anyway remember when leaded gas was still available along with unleaded gas ?? Won't be long before there is nothing but E-15 at gas stations and fuel docks will be following shortly ! ! the government and the people who push this stuff have more power and patience then the general public.. they will be successful..just a matter of time. They have an agenda and will stick to it other wise why would they not exempt the marine fuel from ethanol all together or at least give a 10 to 15 years change over time period. Oh wait ! ! Now I remember it is because they think all boater are rich and can afford it (repairs or engine replacement)as a boat is an excess pleasure anyway ! !

 

[catsailor]

I don't get this water gas separation. I didn't use my lawn mower from november 2009 until august 2010. It started and ran perfectly, on the gas that was in it when I put it away, when I put it back in service. I didn't run my volvo from January until April 2010 because I was out of commission. again it started and ran perfectly on the gas that was in it when I put it away. How long before gasoline with ethanol goes bad? and what are the symptoms?

I am a chemical engineer and have had to research much of this in my living, but also with regard to boating.

Separation is very situation specific:
http://www.epa.gov/oms/regs/fuels/rfg/waterphs.pdf
It depends on humidity, temperature swings, usage, system design, and whether the tank is maintained near full. Some will have troubles and most will not. I have had two outboards that have been trouble (one repeatadly until I added a separating filter, the other until I learned to keep the tank full and vent closed), but every other outboard (2) and every car and appliance (5) have been trouble free. It just depends.

Symptoms? Hard to start (or won't start) and then runs very rough until the lower 20% of the tank is burned or the whole tank is burned. Some have also had troubles with fuel system components, depending on design.

Some links I posted:
http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/2010/04/epa-memo-on-e-10-and-phase-separation.html

 

[kenn]

Can you not buy "E-0' gas anywhere? Here in Canada, Shell's top grade of gas has NO ethanol, so that's what I buy for the boat.

 

[Ross]

I am a chemical engineer and have had to research much of this in my living, but also with regard to boating.

Separation is very situation specific:
http://www.epa.gov/oms/regs/fuels/rfg/waterphs.pdf
It depends on humidity, temperature swings, usage, system design, and whether the tank is maintained near full. Some will have troubles and most will not. I have had two outboards that have been trouble (one repeatadly until I added a separating filter, the other until I learned to keep the tank full and vent closed), but every other outboard (2) and every car and appliance (5) have been trouble free. It just depends.

Symptoms? Hard to start (or won't start) and then runs very rough until the lower 20% of the tank is burned or the whole tank is burned. Some have also had troubles with fuel system components, depending on design.

Some links I posted:
http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/2010/04/epa-memo-on-e-10-and-phase-separation.html

What are the effects of tank agitation? if the tank is well agitated there will be no bottom 20 percent. Even salad dressing vinegar and oil will searate if allow to sit but combine well if shaken or agitated.

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

"so are you saying that if no one buys it...it may go away on it's own....I just can't see many stations adding a separate pump for this new goo."

That's my understanding. There is a lot of discussion regarding the discretion of the facility owner/operator on the EPA web site explaining implementation requirements but my take is that at some (future) time, all o/o's will be required to supply E15 in specifically marked pumps. It bears repeating that pre-2006 vehicles (the vast majority) will not use this fuel and therefore the largest market segment will dictate separate pumps.

"Nothing to panic about YET ! Sorry Don this is typical of how this all started anyway remember when leaded gas was still available along with unleaded gas ?? Won't be long before there is nothing but E-15 at gas stations and fuel docks will be following shortly"

elimination of leaded gas is a bad thing?

Not sure what the discussion on agitation means in a practical sense. It's always preferable to sample the tank bottom after the boat has been sitting a while to visually inspect the content for water.

 

[Ross]

Don, Since we use our boats and other engine driven machines in a non stationary manner it is reasonable to expect the contents of the fuel tank to be agitated during use. Therefore settling will be an occasional problem and be eliminated shortly after the engine is put into service again.

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

Don, Since we use our boats and other engine driven machines in a non stationary manner it is reasonable to expect the contents of the fuel tank to be agitated during use. Therefore settling will be an occasional problem and be eliminated shortly after the engine is put into service again.

Not sure I get the issue. Settling is not the problem - it is your friend - it allows you to drain the tank bottom (after it has had a chance to settle while at rest) so when we do go sailing, there is no water to emulsify in the fuel. If I misunderstand and someone is suggesting that ethanol can separate, that won't happen under any circumstance.

 

[Ross]

It has been suggested that when the ethanol has absorbed enough water that it will separate from the gasoline. I have not waited long enough for this to happen in either my lawn mower (11 months) or my car (4 months) so I have been questioning how long one needs to wait before E-10 or E-15 fuel goes bad. I have run both engines longer than E-10 has been on the market and have had no problems with either.