Engines

[Maine Sail]

Ross: Unfortunately I have very little respect for this guy. I have read several reports that he has posted. I think he is a better entertainer than a surveyor. This note that he has on his website makes me very suspicious.

"Myth #5: A diesel engine can have an expected life expectancy of several thousand hours. Patently untrue. The average life expectancy of a marine diesel engine in a pleasurecraft is somewhere around 1500 hours between major overhauls. The average boat reaches this in about 8-10 years, meaning that the average annual operating time averages around 150 hours. If that seems unrealistically low, consider that that translates into 2-1/2 weeks of eight hour days. Most boats have years when its even less than that. If this surprises you, it may surprise you even more when I tell you that gas engines average around 900 hours before overhauls."

If you look around at used sailboats you will see many of them with 3,000 - 4,000 hrs on the original engines. Our old 2GM engine has over 2,000 hours and has never had anything other than the periodic oil changes.

While I must agree that having a gas engine is not that big of a deal, my preference would always be a diesel.

Pascoe is full of hot air on a number of issues mainly because he states a lot of his stuff as a matter of fact not as his opinion.

Someone please let Mr. Pascoe know that my moto has nearly 2900 hours and is about as "like new" in all specs as can be. At the rate she's going I would not expect an overhaul until maybe 6-8k hours if that. My old commercial fishing boat had over 8k on it and still ran perfectly.

Yes pleasure marine engines in general don't last as long as they should but it is my opinion that this is due to neglect resulting from improper owner education than the fault of the engine or application. Properly maintained they can and do last a long time.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Hot air

We have 2400 hours on our 1986 M25. A good friend ith is 1988 C34 cruises regularly and had well over 5000 hours on his original M25XP. He just replaced his engine ONLY because the aft lip seal kept going out on him and he figured he'd rather invest in a new engine for a boat he's gonna keep forever than have to worry about it for the next ten years he plans to keep cruising. He got an M25XPB. He, too, didn't do anything special with his engine other than religious maintenance. I agree, this guy's full of hot air, at best.

 

[petersea]

I don't want to start an argument here but if you go back and read Pasco's theory on diesel engines most of it make perfect sense. He talks about horsepower to displacement ratio and specifically one hp to one cube or less will result in a long life and reliable service with regular maintenance. Most sailboats fit into this category. I think with some careful reading you will see he is not talking about sailboat engines or commercial fishing boat engines but what the marine industry has done to the "PLEASURECRAFT" diesel boat engines. He talks about how the horsepower has been pushed so high and the rpm so fast that the engines just don't last. There is an example of the cat 3208 that will last forever (natural no turbo) that puts out about 180 to 210 hp (good ratio hp to c.i. displacement)vs. the same engine with twin turbos and bigger injectors putting out 375 to 425 hp(not a good ratio) . Same block displacement, same crankshaft and other internal parts. You don't need to be a mechanical engineer to realize that pushing more then twice the hp out of the engine is not good for it and most marine pleasure engines have more rpm's the a commercial boat engine or truck engine. The same example hold true for a DD 671 that has a hp rating from 250 hp to 700 hp. I think his point was proper application of the engine or at least a realistic view of what to expect if you go for performance rather then longevity. I could go on and on about big c.i displacement engines with low rpm (ships, locomotives etc) that can go thousands and thousands of hours with out overhauls (sometimes easily 50000 hours !) It is all about what you want out of an engine in a certain application ! Ask anybody who runs a race car what kind of life span they expect and compare that to what you expect from your car. That said I disagree with what Pasco says on some things but I got to agree with him on this ! And not to steal the thread from the original poster and his question about engines both are excellent engines with care will last a long long time. My preference is yanmar cuz I 'm more familiar with them and owned one but I help a friend with his universal engines and I also think they are good engines. You could almost pick one by the color and not go wrong ! Little bit like ford vs. chevy. That said I would buy the boat for the boat not the engine !

 

[petersea]

How can you burn rubber with your sailboat if you don't have a turbocharger? I like to down shift mine and pop the clutch at 3000 RPM.

I just now figured out what all those black stripes on "E" dock are ! !

 

[Maine Sail]

The bottom

The bottom line is that both Yanmar, or any of the Kubota based engines, are tremendously reliable if well cared for.

Yanmar, as a name, is probably bigger but I would guess there could actually be more Kubota's out there as names like Nani, Beta, Universal, Phasor & Vetus, to name but a few, are Kubota marinizers. The non marinized parts for Kubota based engines however are cheaper than for Yanmar and Volvo if you find a tractor supplier..

One peeve of mine is the factory paint jobs many engine makers apply. Most of them SUCK. Yanmar, by quite a long shot IMO, does the absolute best job of painting and protecting the engine from corrosion. Westerbeke/Universal are absolute slobs about it.

With Westerbeke's & Universal's they just paint everything, wire, belts hoses etc. and this is a cheap and sleazy way to protect a marine engine from corrosion IMHO. Call me cranky but I just spent the last month re-painting what should have been done right from the factory.

I must give big kudos to Yanmar on engine painting!!

Personally if I were in the market for a new smaller diesel I would give serious consideration to Beta. They are doing a lot of things right and seem to go out of their way in customer support.

Again, you can't go wrong either way between Kubota's and Yanmar's

 

[Stu Jackson]

The non marinized parts for Kubota based engines however are cheaper than for Yanmar and Volvo if you find a tractor supplier..

That's correct. The Kubota website lists local dealers and you're better off trying from them than finding stuff on the Kubota website by referencing your engine # since they go by engine models (i.e., the M25 is a D-850 tractor engine) and they've recently started to switch to tractor model #s, as if the first way wasn't hard enough.

I found some easily here, see Reply #6: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,3133.0.html

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

This reminds me of a grade school gathering of kids bad-mouthing somebody they either resent, dislike or are jealous of but afraid to say anything directly.
From what I've read, it would seem all of the debate consists of a bunch of differing opinion, none of which can be proven right or wrong, nor can many of his opinions.

Anyone familiar enough with his writing to be that critical should also know how to discuss the issue(s) with him directly. The result might be worth reading.

 

[Maine Sail]

Anyone familiar enough with his writing to be that critical should also know how to discuss the issue(s) with him directly. The result might be worth reading.

Don,

The issue I have is that he often states stuff as fact when in reality it is his opinion.

Myth #5: A diesel engine can have an expected life expectancy of several thousand hours. Patently untrue.

Patently untrue? Many of us know this to be false as we have engines with several thousand hours on them.


He also makes statements like this:

Distance between strut and prop hub should be no more than 50% of shaft diameter.

Misleading statements like this, which are 50% off of "SAE standard J755
Marine Propeller Shaft Ends and Hubs", and "ABYC P-06" allowable standards are a little sloppy for someone with a site as high profile as his.

6.5.5.4 The distance between the forward end of the
propeller hub and the aft end of the last strut bearing shall
be limited to one shaft diameter.

Pascoe makes lots good points but he sometimes confuses opinion as fact. Most of his site is literally awesome information it is the cross over from opinion to un-proven factual statements that I think push some of us to make the statements we did.

 

[sailaway78]

Engine Hours

This caused me to have to break out the pen and paper and scratch my head some. My 1994 Mazda van just turned over 245,000 miles today. According to my pencil figgurs, this correlates to a little over 5,000 hours, if you figure an average of 50mph for the life of the engine. I do not think there is any way anyone averages 50 mph for the life of a car. The numbers for a 40mph average are 6125. It runs excellent, does not smoke, and burns no oil. While I do not think this makes my Mazda anything special, I do believe it gives an indication of the life expectancy of a well taken care of engine. And a diesel should live longer, if cared for than a gas engine. I think anyone who claims that you should only expect two thousand or so hours from a little marine diesel, is smoking something funny. 10,000 hours seems a perfectly reasonable expectation to me, as long as the engine is well cared for and not abused. I know of several boat engines with well over 4,000 or more hours on them that run as good as a new one.

 

[Ross]

Re: Engine Hours

On te other hand if you ran an automobile engine at wot for 90 per cent of its use I rather doubt that you would see 5000-6500 hours of service. My cars run at less than half of their red line rpm at 65 mph.

 

[Franklin]

I'll be a bit more specific. Yanmar is much better then Volvo. Why? Because it doesn't need glow plugs.

For a diesel engine to start, it need heat, fuel, and pressure. Yanmar's cyclinders/pistons are so well made that the heat during startup is generated by compression alone. Other engine makers need to supply some external heat to start it in mild to cold temps. These external heat sources are either glow plugs or fuel heaters or sometimes every explosive gasses.

To me that make Yanmar diesel engines much better then the others. Less parts to fail and better compression.

 

[Ross]

Franklin, You won't find a glow plug in my Volvo engine. It is direct injection, no glow plug, one cylinder, ten hp.

 

[petersea]

O.K. I wasn't going to go here but here I am ! !

1st) Nice N Easy, marine engine and car engines just are not the same! Different applications As a matter of fact 35 mph is the figure I have always know to be the standard when calculating hour to miles so you Mazda has 7000 hours on it That said I am pretty certain you don't have salt water running thru you Mazda engine and your little Mazda is on wheels and does not come close to the weight of you boat. It is just not a fair comparison. Where I really take exception with you is that you said "I think anyone who claims that you should only expect two thousand or so hours from a little marine diesel, is smoking something funny" You clearly did not read Pascoe web site because if you did you would know "little" diesels fall into the favorable ratio of CID to hp and are quite reliable even by Pascoe statements. It is about proper application of the engine to intended use and or expectation of what is expected.

Maine Sail) O.K. It is his web site I expected most of it to be his opinion. I really think if you went back and reread some of his articles on gas vs. diesel and some of the other diesel engine articles you would find them pretty realistic. remember his "facts" are based on his experience and location. Think about the difference in southern boating vs. northern boating. his myth # 5 being quoted here so often is after all a myth. I doubt there is anyone who can get a truly "factual" number on engines life expectancy. He even states that a diesel engine can have a long life in a marine environment IF it is matched to the proper application. Got to think that Nice and Easy's Mazda engine would not be a correct application for his sailboat. At the risk of being inflammatory my next statement is not intended to be rude. It is a fact that my Yanmar 3 gm engine came form the factory with belts and hose painted and some of the wiring painted as well. It was a pet peeve on mine also and I replaced the belts and hoses just for that reason. (so my spare parts were now painted) Some times one man 's fact is another man's opinion and his opinion is his fact !

O.K. I'm done with this have a good night !

 

[Maine Sail]

It is a fact that my Yanmar 3 gm engine came form the factory with belts and hose painted and some of the wiring painted as well. It was a pet peeve on mine also and I replaced the belts and hoses just for that reason. (so my spare parts were now painted) Some times one man 's fact is another man's opinion and his opinion is his fact !

O.K. I'm done with this have a good night !

Interesting. The Yanmar I just watched being put into a boat at my boat yard was a beautiful example. Perhaps they recently changed how they paint? I was jealous of it.. When I owned my Yanmar, years ago, it too was well painted but admittedly the belts and hoses had probably been replaced by the time I got it. That being said I have been on lots of boats with Yanmars and they tend to have less corrosion than other engines even when neglected. Again, this is my opinion as it was above..

The Yanmar I recently saw looked just like this (very nice):

Maine Sail) O.K. It is his web site I expected most of it to be his opinion. I really think if you went back and reread some of his articles on gas vs. diesel and some of the other diesel engine articles you would find them pretty realistic. remember his "facts" are based on his experience and location.

Jeeze let's not get upset over this. We get in disagreements, and present opinions all day here, over inane issues, over and over. Pascoe is not much different and if he were here I'm sure he'd be right in the thick of it with "which weight oil is best" or "change the oil cold or warm" or "5200 or silicone" discussions.

I did not condemn his every word! I just have problems with some of his statements presented as fact.

There are very few who get it right most of the time & certainly not me. Calder and Steve D'Antonio are two that come to mind as two guys who stive very hard for accuracy.

I have spent the time and read his entire site. He is very prolific and has much experience all be it with mostly power boats but his site is an overall very good one. It is possible to like the overall site and content while still disagreeing with some points. Please understand that I am not condeming him as a "snake oil salesman" I like his site I just have trouble with some of his statements as you did with mine above. It happens..


Remeber I have also said this about Pascoe.

Pascoe makes lots good points but he sometimes confuses opinion as fact. Most of his site is literally awesome information it is the cross over from opinion to un-proven factual statements that I think push some of us to make the statements we did.

 

[Franklin]

Franklin, You won't find a glow plug in my Volvo engine. It is direct injection, no glow plug, one cylinder, ten hp.

Ross: Just because it's direct injection doesn't mean it doesn't have glow plug(s). Many diesel engines don't have that extra chamber so the glow plug is in the same place a spark plug would be on a gas engine.

I'm not saying your engine does have one, but I haven't seen a Volvo without one and when I repowered a couple years ago, I checked the mid range engines and they had them.

One way to know for sure, if the instructions on your engine say to turn a key and hold for a few seconds before starting or hold a button before starting, then it has one. My generator has one...well...the generator I'm about to loose

 

[higgs]

I do a lot of cruising, thus I spend a lot of time hanging around the docks. From my discussions I find a lot of problems with Volvo. Yanmar seems to be , around the docks, the engine of choice.

 

[Ross]

Franklin, I installed the engine brand new out of the box. It is the model 2001 in the series 2001, 2002, 2003 for 1, 2, and 3 cylinder engines. The newer series engine, built on a different design, have glow plugs and a slightly lower compression ratio. I believe that production was halted on these models in the late '80's or early '90's.

 

[Jim Kolstoe]

Let me preface by saying first that this has been a very interesting discussion, and second, that I have no diesel engine experience. In the discussion of relative engine quality, it seems to me that all of these makes would have similar shaped bell curve distributions of wear rates or working life span - ie some engines by the same manufacturer will out last other, seemingly identical engines. Further, that there will be substantial overlap in the curves for similar engines, similarly used, from different manufacturers. So the question I have to ask is whether anyone has experience with a large enough sample of various makes of engines subjected to similar working conditions, to draw a valid conclusion? I acknowledge that the choices of boat manufacturers might indicate their opinions as to the best makes of engines, as suggested above. However, I'm cynical enough to wonder whether those choices might be driven by other considerations, such as money. Any thoughts?
Jim Kolstoe, h23 Kara's Boo

 

[Scott B]

Interesting. The Yanmar I just watched being put into a boat at my boat yard was a beautiful example. Perhaps they recently changed how they paint? I was jealous of it.. When I owned my Yanmar, years ago, it too was well painted but admittedly the belts and hoses had probably been replaced by the time I got it. That being said I have been on lots of boats with Yanmars and they tend to have less corrosion than other engines even when neglected. Again, this is my opinion as it was above..

The Yanmar I recently saw looked just like this (very nice):

Must have been very recent, mines a 2005 3YM30, cannot understand why they would paint everything in sight.

 

[Maine Sail]

Must have been very recent, mines a 2005 3YM30, cannot understand why they would paint everything in sight.

Wow that looks as bad as my Westerbeke.. :cry: Perhaps they have two factories with two different painting techniques? The motor I saw was was indeed a bigger Yanny not a smaller one. I guess I will change my opinion back to.... most factory paint jobs stink..

Don't you hate all that paint flaking off the hoses when they expand and contract? What a mess...