Engine start or...er...dead?

[jimlay]

Hey there!

I have a Hunter 450 Passage with Volvo diesel and a Northern Lights 6kw Genset. Sailed over the weekend and had the chance to sail again yesterday but the Engine (all indications incl starter) and the Genset (all indications incl start) are completely dead. The starter bettery (wired separately from the house batteries) indicates 12 volts but it appears that no voltage is getting anywhere else. I checked all the wires and they look to be grounded etc, didn't touch any of the switches since I shut her down on Sunday--is there a fuse or curcuit breaker I'm not finding?

Any thoughts from you more experienced boaters out there?

Thanks

Aloha

Jim

 

[Rich Stidger]

If your two engines- the Volvo and the Northern Lights are both dead and they use the same starting battery, then the fault is most likely in an component that is common to both of them.

You can't tell a good connection from a bad one without measuring the voltage drop across it. You said that all indications were "dead". Does that mean that instrument lights are out also?

Put a voltmeter across the battery posts. Not on the wire terminations, but the actual post. Watch the voltage when you attempt to start. If you don't see any voltage fluctuation, you have a bad connection to the battery. If the voltage changes but the voltage drops below 11 volts, you either have a nearly dead battery or the battery has expired.

Can you start one of the engines with the house batteries?

 

[jimlay]

Thanks Rich!

The voltage indocator I used to determine that there was power at the battery is on the electrical panel about 12 inches from the starter battery. I don't have a voltage meter other than that but can probably get one.

There were no engine lights or indications at all. This was my first hint that something was wrong since when I usually start the engine there is a "twitch" of the gauages when I move the key from "off" to "run" before "start"ing it. There was also no response when I tested the engine alarms, nor any glow plug indication on the Genset.

I guess this is why I posted here--I couldn't find any fuzes or other "master off" switch and cannot easily tie in the house batteries to start the engines. I was also concerend that if I did somehow manually start them I might fry something if they were not properly grounded.

Thoughts?

 

[Rich Stidger]

You need a simple $20 digital voltmeter to do any troubleshooting. You need to be able to measure the voltage at a variety of places.

For instance, measuring the battery voltage at the posts when you attempt a start will tell you if the battery is charged or dead. If you measure from the post to the terminal on the wire that is attached to the post when you attempt a start and the voltage is more than 0.2V, then you likely have a bad connection at that post.

Bottom line is that you can't troubleshoot with just a distribution panel voltmeter.

 

[Bill Roosa]

Was it hot when you motored last?
Are you batteries in an engine space (gets hot) or in another locker (does not get hot)?
did you motor much on the last sail?
How are the starter batts charged? How are the house batts charged?
Is there a single alternator and iso box or duel alternators?

With no indication of juice getting to either engine and some voltage on the battery you have a primary circuit open. The circuit that is providing power has to have either a connection that came loose or is very badly corroded. If even the instriments don't fire up you have something that has come loose and fallen off. Even a lose connection should be enough to fire up an alarm or twitch the needles. Since you went for a sail recently and no faults where noted I'm thinking somethin like the nut on some common piece of equipment (isolator diodes box terminals) has simply vibrated off and is not making contact.
We need more info on your set up to diagnose.

 

[jimlay]

Thanks Bill;

The start battery is in a separate space from the engine, and house battery across the salon. I can find no loose nuts or other corosion anywhere and it was not any warmer than it normally is here in Hawaii (did I have to say that?).

The only thing that I don't know is the reason for a couple of items in the wiring stream leading to the engines--one is a small gray round solenoid looking item and the other a metal box that looks to me like an amplifier or filter with heat sink vanes on the side of it. Other than that no loose connections that I can find.

The engine manual suggests that there should be a master swithch for the engine but I simply cannot find one anywhere. Am I missing something?

Thanks

Jim

 

[Bill Roosa]

Had to think about this one for a while
I suspect the gray solenoid is the start solenoid for the genset and the “filter box” is an isolation diode unit. Does the filter box have 3 terminals? Does the control wire on the gray solenoid go to the genset start button? Does the genset have a solenoid mounted to/near the starter in the high amp cable?
I’m totally guessing here.
Standard procedure would be to take a test light/meter and connect the negative probe to the start battery negative post. Then, starting at the positive terminal on the start battery trace the cable going to the starter solenoid and test each end of the individual cables connecting the various units and see where the voltage stops being battery voltage.

Couple more questions;
How many terminals are on the “filter box” I’m guessing 3
The gray solenoid should have a “control wire” that energizes it. Can you tell where that leads to?
Are t

 

[Sailm8]

Some Hunter Yanmar combinations have a ton of branches off of the starting circuit causing shorts and severe voltage drops. Many owners have had to replace the the wire from the switch to the starter.

While not the same model boat my main switch is located where the shore power cable enters the boat.

 

[jimlay]

Bill;
You definately have demostrated the art of imagination!

Yes-- the black "filter box" has three terminals, and the grey solenoid has four terminals.

I'll have to trace the wires, but based on what you are saying it would appear that I can isolate the engine/bypass the solenoid and filter and wire directly to the main engine in order to be able to start it? My assumption would be that the solenoid is intended to port starter battery power to the genset when needed?

Thanks

Jim

 

[Bill Roosa]

OK Jimlay
Then the filter box is in fact an isolation diode unit.
The odd thing is the isolation diode unit, even if totally blown would not stop the engine from starting. It is just a fancy Y in the alternator output and "should" not even be in the start circuit.
How do you normaly start the genset?

 

[jimlay]

Bill;

The power to start the genset has always been available at the panel--it's dead as well.

Startup is normal Northern Lights startup operation--push and hold one button and the glow plug light comes on, then push the start button and the engine turns over readily.

Right now nothing happens when I push and hold the genset button down. Both the engine and genset are tied to the one starter battery, so I'm trying to find the common point that connects both. Is the solenoid a common failure item?

Thanks

Jim

 

[jimlay]

SailM8;

Is it on the outside of the hull or the inside? I have a couple of shore power breakers on the inside of the hull (in the cab in at the point that the shore power enters from the outside) but none on the outside of the hull.

Thanks

Jim

 

[Sailm8]

Inside

 

[Steve Walsh]

I was helping a friend with his (new to him) Hunter 326 and we had a similar issue: dead panel, engine would not crank, batts ok. After going thru the Hunter manual, we located instructions for a reset button/breaker located under the upper lip of the lazarette, more like in the coaming area. Anyway, found it, pushed the button and the engine started right up. No way we would have located it without the manual. Good Luck and hope this helps.

 

[Bill Roosa]

Or you could do what Steve said.
What a concept "press the reset button"
Brilliant!!!

Bloody folks from FL always coming in at the last minute with the solution after we racked our brains and worked our fingers to the bone and make us look just plain dumb.

Seriously this fits all the symptoms. I even have one on my 40.5. Not that it has ever popped. kinda like your appendix, you tend to forget about it till it pops.

 

[jimlay]

Steve/Bill;

I looked all over the place for a master reset switch because this seemed to fit all the symptoms but never found one. Never even occured to me to look in the lazarette, but as I type this my loving wife is on her way out to the marina to begin her "snipe hunt" for the master switch/reset button.

Bill--on your 40.5, is the button located in the same place?

Aloha

Jim

 

[jimlay]

Fixed--finally

Greetings all;

I finally fixed the problem here--the culprit was a starter battery on/off switch which had somehow fried itself thus breaking the circuit that feeds both the engine and genset. I wound up following the circuit through to the back side of that switch and found positive on one side and nothing on the other. $55 part and I'll be sailing again tonight.

Thanks to all for your help. It is truly appreciated when you all take the time to contribute....one of the reasons I love the sailing community so much?

Thanks again

Jim

 

[Bill Roosa]

yes jimlay the reset is in the starboard lazeret on the shore/3-way panel.
I also have an engine master switch located in the engine compartment.

See you on the waters (soon as we really want to get to HI)