A few weeks ago I posted a question about the engine starting {turning over} like the batteries were nearly dead. I had replaced batteries, alternator, starter and spent about a grand on mechanics. No luck. I wanted to post the results to help some one in the future and to give credit to the people who gave me the response/advice that helped me solve the problem. As it turned out it was a bad wire from the starter button to the engine harness! It doesn't make sense to me but I guess the oringal wire was internally corroded and wouldn't pass enough power to fully activate the solenoid. I know its not a competition but I do want to say THANKS to RichH. He was first to suggest it and stood by his advice when others doughted it. I hope by posting this that is helps someone else who can't figure why his starter drags. Check out this stupid 10 dollar wire!! Again, thanks Rich!! I am off to Caladisi Island tomorrow afternoon for a few days of fun in the sun. Anyone that sees my Catalina 27 {Coyne Operated} feel free to say "Hi". Thanks to all that helped, Jack
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Thanks for the kudos.....
BUT now be prepared to clean out or replace the large electrical contacts INSIDE the solenoid. The high amperage/low voltage in the 'primary' circuit may have burned or carbonized those internal contacts in the solenoid. So, keep an 'ear out' for how the solenoid is engaging the starter and repair/replace at the first sign of 'disengagement' or poor 'contacting'. Its simply amazing how fast 'automotive grade' wiring degrades in a BOAT. The moisture will penetrate through the wire insulation and corrode the surface of the twisted strands yielding high resistance and corresponding voltage drop/high amperage. Since most of this 'design' predates the widespread usage of tinned (Ancor) wire ... such problems are and will become commonplace.
BUT now be prepared to clean out or replace the large electrical contacts INSIDE the solenoid. The high amperage/low voltage in the 'primary' circuit may have burned or carbonized those internal contacts in the solenoid. So, keep an 'ear out' for how the solenoid is engaging the starter and repair/replace at the first sign of 'disengagement' or poor 'contacting'. Its simply amazing how fast 'automotive grade' wiring degrades in a BOAT. The moisture will penetrate through the wire insulation and corrode the surface of the twisted strands yielding high resistance and corresponding voltage drop/high amperage. Since most of this 'design' predates the widespread usage of tinned (Ancor) wire ... such problems are and will become commonplace.
As Rich has said here
it is amazing how many people think that automotive parts, especially electrical, are ok for marine use. I just added another battery and everyone told me how crazy I was for going and buying 1/0 anchor wire at the tune of 12 bucks a foot. I spent close to $130 for the wire, the lugs, the heat shrink and solder, yet I doubt I have a problem in the immediate future due to my wires because they are done properly according to marine standards and I am confident that they will give me the service I require when I require it.
it is amazing how many people think that automotive parts, especially electrical, are ok for marine use. I just added another battery and everyone told me how crazy I was for going and buying 1/0 anchor wire at the tune of 12 bucks a foot. I spent close to $130 for the wire, the lugs, the heat shrink and solder, yet I doubt I have a problem in the immediate future due to my wires because they are done properly according to marine standards and I am confident that they will give me the service I require when I require it.
It's crazy..
Quote Rich H.: "Its simply amazing how fast 'automotive grade' wiring degrades in a BOAT. The moisture will penetrate through the wire insulation and corrode the surface of the twisted strands yielding high resistance and corresponding voltage drop/high amperage. Since most of this 'design' predates the widespread usage of tinned (Ancor) wire ..." I've never understood how engine manufacturers, even today, as in just two weeks ago, are still using NON-TINNED wire on there engine harnesses. At the Maine Boat Builders Show I had a chance to look at engines from Yanmar, Westerbeke, Beta, Universal, Nani & Vetus and every one had non-tinned wire in use around the engine and to the gauge panel. For what you pay another $200.00 in proper wiring techniques would be nice. I had a similar problem on an old Universal M-25 and I actually rewired everything all the way to the gauge panel. Unfortunately this was a very expensive project having to buy all those different colors of wire, connectors, split loom etc.. Once I was done though it was good for another 20 years.. Rich is right about the solenoid. If it was not getting proper current it may be on it's last legs. As I stated bellow is a good idea to have a spare anyway...
Quote Rich H.: "Its simply amazing how fast 'automotive grade' wiring degrades in a BOAT. The moisture will penetrate through the wire insulation and corrode the surface of the twisted strands yielding high resistance and corresponding voltage drop/high amperage. Since most of this 'design' predates the widespread usage of tinned (Ancor) wire ..." I've never understood how engine manufacturers, even today, as in just two weeks ago, are still using NON-TINNED wire on there engine harnesses. At the Maine Boat Builders Show I had a chance to look at engines from Yanmar, Westerbeke, Beta, Universal, Nani & Vetus and every one had non-tinned wire in use around the engine and to the gauge panel. For what you pay another $200.00 in proper wiring techniques would be nice. I had a similar problem on an old Universal M-25 and I actually rewired everything all the way to the gauge panel. Unfortunately this was a very expensive project having to buy all those different colors of wire, connectors, split loom etc.. Once I was done though it was good for another 20 years.. Rich is right about the solenoid. If it was not getting proper current it may be on it's last legs. As I stated bellow is a good idea to have a spare anyway...
Usually not the wire..
But instead it is the connection. All wire must terminate somewhere and come out of its protective PVC shell. It usually splices onto a lug or connector. That is the weak spot! To protect that weak spot, crimp your lugs - then heat shrink and tin so that no moisture can penetrate down the wire. Regular wire can be used, you just have to know how to protect it!
But instead it is the connection. All wire must terminate somewhere and come out of its protective PVC shell. It usually splices onto a lug or connector. That is the weak spot! To protect that weak spot, crimp your lugs - then heat shrink and tin so that no moisture can penetrate down the wire. Regular wire can be used, you just have to know how to protect it!
There should be more to this
As Guy said, it's usually not the wire and in this case, it makes no sense. The solenoid is a simple relay - with insufficient current, it won't activate. It's an all-or-nothing physical movement of the relay contacts. Did you check the voltage drop across the wire? I'd bet it was either the connectors or the intenral connection on the relay itself. Too much is made of tinned wire - as long as the connections are sealed properly, nothing can corrode insulated wire.
As Guy said, it's usually not the wire and in this case, it makes no sense. The solenoid is a simple relay - with insufficient current, it won't activate. It's an all-or-nothing physical movement of the relay contacts. Did you check the voltage drop across the wire? I'd bet it was either the connectors or the intenral connection on the relay itself. Too much is made of tinned wire - as long as the connections are sealed properly, nothing can corrode insulated wire.
The solenoid
usually also has to engage the bendix on the starter motor, it has to hit the contact at the end of its travel, if it doesn't hit hard enough because of the resistance in the starter wire, you get a poor contact and it starts arcing even if it works at first. Several automobile manufacturers have had problems with excessive voltage drop to the starter solenoid, their fix was to add a relay near the starter, powering the solenoid directly from the battery cable with a short wire run through the relay contacts, and the voltage drop on the long run to the starter switch isn't so critical, this would be a worthwhile upgrade and if you put the relay in an accessible place, would give you a failsafe starter jumper connector. Tim
usually also has to engage the bendix on the starter motor, it has to hit the contact at the end of its travel, if it doesn't hit hard enough because of the resistance in the starter wire, you get a poor contact and it starts arcing even if it works at first. Several automobile manufacturers have had problems with excessive voltage drop to the starter solenoid, their fix was to add a relay near the starter, powering the solenoid directly from the battery cable with a short wire run through the relay contacts, and the voltage drop on the long run to the starter switch isn't so critical, this would be a worthwhile upgrade and if you put the relay in an accessible place, would give you a failsafe starter jumper connector. Tim
I was one
I was one of the doubters, and probably a nay sayer. Lesson learned, even though it still does not make sense to me. Of course, thats not the first time for me. Congrats on getting the problem solved, and a tip of the hat to RichH.
I was one of the doubters, and probably a nay sayer. Lesson learned, even though it still does not make sense to me. Of course, thats not the first time for me. Congrats on getting the problem solved, and a tip of the hat to RichH.
The easiest way to check out a solenoid ......
is to simply 'jump' the HOT battery to starter terminal TO the 'ignition' side of the solenoid terminal. If the solenoid then starts the starter .... problem is in the primary wire (including the solenoid coil windings). If doing the same, and you hear the solenoid plunger HIT the end of its travel .. and the starter doesnt turn .... then suspect that the solenoids internal contacts (the ones that 'bridge' the large battery to solenoid terminal WITH the large solenoid to starter terminal) are either hammered FLAT and no longer make contact OR these contacts are burned and the carbon deposit from 'arcing' is insulating the internal terminals. For contacts that have been hammered flat, they are usually 'square' and can often be 'rotated' so that whats left of the contacts can be used (for a short time). Summary: NO start -- jump batt. to solenoid primary. If Start (with jumper) - high resistance or open short (could also be blown fuse) in primary wire/ignition switch or push button circuit. If no start (with jumper) but you hear a CLICK -- then 'bridge'/jump Batt.-to-solenoid terminal TO starter terminal (bridge the two BIG terminals on the solenoid). If starter does spin (will not engage 'bendix' as the solenoid is now 'bypassed') then problem with solenoid 'plunger' or internal secondary (thick wire) contacts are 'hammered' or are 'carboned-up'. If starter doesnt spin, then, dead batt., high resistance in batt. circuit .... OR worn out starter brushes, broken field winding, etc.
is to simply 'jump' the HOT battery to starter terminal TO the 'ignition' side of the solenoid terminal. If the solenoid then starts the starter .... problem is in the primary wire (including the solenoid coil windings). If doing the same, and you hear the solenoid plunger HIT the end of its travel .. and the starter doesnt turn .... then suspect that the solenoids internal contacts (the ones that 'bridge' the large battery to solenoid terminal WITH the large solenoid to starter terminal) are either hammered FLAT and no longer make contact OR these contacts are burned and the carbon deposit from 'arcing' is insulating the internal terminals. For contacts that have been hammered flat, they are usually 'square' and can often be 'rotated' so that whats left of the contacts can be used (for a short time). Summary: NO start -- jump batt. to solenoid primary. If Start (with jumper) - high resistance or open short (could also be blown fuse) in primary wire/ignition switch or push button circuit. If no start (with jumper) but you hear a CLICK -- then 'bridge'/jump Batt.-to-solenoid terminal TO starter terminal (bridge the two BIG terminals on the solenoid). If starter does spin (will not engage 'bendix' as the solenoid is now 'bypassed') then problem with solenoid 'plunger' or internal secondary (thick wire) contacts are 'hammered' or are 'carboned-up'. If starter doesnt spin, then, dead batt., high resistance in batt. circuit .... OR worn out starter brushes, broken field winding, etc.
Had that same problem with a harness wire but I would
describe the symptoms as a time lag between the time I pushed the starter button and the time the selenoid engaged rather than a slow cranking engine. It is obvious now that Jack's solenoid and starter circuit were fine so there was no actual slow cranking. The failure in correctly diagnosing the problem probably laid in our missinterpretation of the described symptoms. No mysteries.
describe the symptoms as a time lag between the time I pushed the starter button and the time the selenoid engaged rather than a slow cranking engine. It is obvious now that Jack's solenoid and starter circuit were fine so there was no actual slow cranking. The failure in correctly diagnosing the problem probably laid in our missinterpretation of the described symptoms. No mysteries.
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