Emptying And Cleaning Water Tank

clinton_edmonds · Sep 22, 2011

Strange? I have had two Vegas, a 1975 and a 1978 and the Whale Gusher bilge pump was on the starboard side of the cockpit. The Combi control was in the equivalent posion on the port side. In both cases they were connected to the cockpit drains via a Tee connection. I assume that this was to prevent greasy bilge water getting onto the cockpit sole.

Clint,

Sad ex Vega owner

From: Craig vegatern@...
To: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2011 2:21:40 AM
Subject: [AlbinVega] Re: Bilge pump issue

Doug, You woke me up with that. Replacing my hoses is on my list but it just got moved up some, and I like the thought of draining the maintenance pump into the cockpit. good idea.
Craig Tern 1519

dougpol1 · Sep 22, 2011

When I bought my Vega a couple years ago she had a hand diaphragm pump
and no electric pump. The hand pump had about 1 1/2 corrugated thin
cheap hose on it. Don't know the name of that kind of hose is, with no
foot valve. It was really hard to get it pumping water becuse the hose
shortened and lengthened everytime you pump. I think just about all the
suction was taken up in the hose. I took the hose off and replaced it
with a good stiff hose of the same size with a check valve at the
bottom. IT pumps over board and has a siphon break. My electric bilge
pump, pumps into the cockpit with no siphon break. My fuel tank in the
keel had been removed so I can easily see to the bottom which I like. I
love that combi drive partly because it never drips water like a
stuffing box. If there is an inch of water in the keel I know it's
eather rainwater that has gotten down through the cockpit, a through
hull or my engine cooling pump.
I do keep thinking my boat might be a little stiffer with a tank of
fuel in the keel instead of in the cockpit locker. I think Albin had
it right with a small tank in the keel and a couple of lead batteries
down there as well. A couple jugs of fuel can be carried on deck if it
is needed. With modern gel cell batteries it doesn't matter if water
gets over top of them should your bilges fill up with water. I have
three batteries in a cockpit locker plus about 15 gallons of diesel in
the other locker. So with all that buoyancy down in the keel and weight
up high there is no way my boat is sailing as designed. I do still have
my heavy volvo diesel so that weight is still there. If I were going to
sea I would change it all back as original.

Doug

vegatern · Sep 22, 2011

Doug, My fuel tank is also in the port locker. It had been moved there by the previous owner. I moved some weight to the bilge by placing about 100' of chain there. The chain stands in a column up against the forward end, held there by a removable panel. I still have access to the bottom of the bilge for sponging out. The boat was noticeably stiffer after the change.
If the boat were ever going someplace serious some provision would need to be made to secure the chain, should the boat become inverted.

Craig

Vega1447 · Sep 22, 2011

Craig,
that sounds like a great idea.

Do you have any description/photos of this "chain locker"?

Thanks

John V1447 Breakaway

dougpol1 · Sep 22, 2011

One of the things I wonder about is, IF the fuel tank in the keel were
nearly empty and the keel filled with water would the flay ting fuel
tank lift the cabin sole. What held the tank down. Do you have to take
up the sole to get a new tank in? I'm not sure exactly what the tank
looks like. Will it drop down the rough the little opening in the sole?
There is another Vega near where I keep mine. He still has the keel
tank. He can out sail me every time to windward. I races every week end
with the local club and does very well against more modern boats. He
seldom wins but is always way up in the rankings. That is pretty amazing
for a 40 year old boat. I'm sure most of it is due to his ability
though a little weight in the keel can't hurt. Doug

dougpol1 · Sep 22, 2011

Craig, Can you pull the chin under the sole fro the chain locker
forward? That would really be nice for a all chain anchor rode. You
really got me thinking

Doug

SVFlyAway · Sep 22, 2011

If the fuel tank is removed, it is possible to place a third battery below
the cabin sole. I simply added a piece of thick Starboard that extends
beyond the opening. A third battery equally adds as much weight as a small
fuel tank. Plus this gives me more available power (which I know from past
emails some folks don't appreciate ).

One comment on the chain in the bilge. Is it off the bottom of the bilge and
is it thus able to drain? Chain sitting in salt water corrodes in very
little time. One more question, is the chain then used just as ballast or do
you pull it out for anchoring ever?

dougpol1 · Sep 22, 2011

With my fuel tank on the port side I wonder if I need the batteries on
the starboard. What have you found out about this Chris? I am
thinking that the keel tank full of fuel weights about 50 lbs when it is
removed you have 50 lbs of buoyancy in the keel. In my case with a 15
gal fuel tank up high the difference is 120 lbs of fuel and 50 lbs of
buoyancy adds up to 170 lbs of lost righting moment. A boat designer
would work pretty hard to gain that much righting in a 27ft boat. I
guess filling the keel with water would do the same thing. Maybe a
holding tank? Doug

dougpol1 · Sep 22, 2011

Hey Guys, I am sorry! I just realized I high jacked this bilge pump
thread with fuel tank posts. Sorry! Doug

j.hunter9999 · Sep 22, 2011

I wonder if the fuel tank is considered from a design perspective when it comes
to the righting moment? Lets say I'm designing a boat...I would calculate the
weight needed for the desired righting moment and put it in the keel, then the
fuel in the keel would simply be in addition, a bonus. I'd do this with the
understanding that I have no way of knowing how much fuel might ever be in a
tank.

On the other hand, I would consider the batteries with the understanding that
their weight is unlikely to change over time.

Of course, I am no boat designer, just a conservative former engineer that
over-designs everything now that I'm paying for it myself.

Jack
Bella - V2620

tiempo2010 · Sep 22, 2011

Tankage has to be considered, and would have to be based on a full tank.

To give you an idea of what weight high does here is an example:

20 lbs in the rig 25' above the waterline is a vertical moment of 500 lbs.
(20 x 25)
To maintain the vertical center of gravity it needs to be counteracted by
500 lbs 1' below the waterline or 250 lbs 2' below the waterline.

The good news is the tank can't be much above the waterline.

vegatern · Sep 22, 2011

The design is simple. Because the chain piled on itself takes up about the first 10", or less, of the bilge I glassed 2" strips of ½" ply, the depth of the bilge, to the hull on either side in that location. The ply was sealed with resin first and the joint is filleted to avoid a hard spot. A loose piece of ply is held against the strips by the weight of the chain. I didn\'t glass the whole lot together because I wasn\'t sure I wanted to keep it or if glassing a little "bulkhead" down there would affect the hull. I had planned on building a little shelf of foam and resin for it to rest on but never did it so it rests on the bottom of the bilge. I have turned it over a couple of times and it looked ok but it has been a while. I should look at it again. The bilge is dry unless it rains.

It is not possible to deploy the chain from that location. It must first be handed to the cockpit and carried forward, or put in the skiff from there.

The chain is intended as a backup, a storm rode if you will. It is too much weight for the forward locker. The only time I tried to use it the wind had built to the point that I was unable to row against it to set the anchor, so I left it on the bow and figured I would lower the anchor if I broke away.

The chain weighs about 70 lbs, I think about the same as the tank, but all the weight is on a smaller footprint, and I have wondered, when I have nothing else to worry about, If I came off a big wave real hard, would the chain continue down through the bottom of the boat? What do you think?

Craig

tiempo2010 · Sep 22, 2011

Craig

The chain won't continue through the bottom of the hull. But a good idea
would be to place a heavy rubber mat under the chain against the hull for
protection from abrasion and to keep the chain from dampness which will
eventually cause rust. The plastic they use to protect carpets on stairs
works. It has small "feet" evenly spaced that are used to grip the carpet it
is normally on and these will keep it off the hull a little distance. Or
those rubber squares that lock together and are used to stand on in
workplaces.

tomfentonvega2977beowulf · Sep 23, 2011

Thanks to everyone for the valuable and useful information in this thread, both about bilge pumps and especially about the use of an empty bilge and the possible righting implications. Please forgive the ignorance of a new Vega owner, but please would someone explain why (as several people have mentioned, and as I have experienced) the bilge takes water when it rains? Many thanks. Tom

Tom Fenton, Beowulf, V2977

tiempo2010 · Sep 23, 2011

There has to be a deck leak somewhere - cockpit locker lid, anchor chain
pipe, driving rain against the companionway or somewhere else.

pjacobs55 · Sep 23, 2011

My present source of fresh water ingress (I avoid the word "leak")is the locker lid at the stern. I need to build a lid with skirts that extend below the sealing rim of the locker.
Here's a nice example:

http://www3.telus.net/sailing/cockpit_locker_lid.jpg

Peter
#1331 'Sin Tacha'

tim_klynn · Sep 23, 2011

I had a leak that came out under the starboard settee, that was caused water coming in via a cracked fiberglass fitting where a piece of clear hose ran from the starboard cockpit locker lid was attached. The water ran in from under the starboard cockpit locket, under the cooler and drained out into the battery compartment and into the bilge. I also had a couple of stanchions that leaked a bit, which also ended up in the bilge. -Tim
________________________________
From: Tom Fenton tjhfenton@...
To: "AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com" AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com
Cc: "AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com" AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 3:30 PM
Subject: Re: [AlbinVega] Re: Bilge pump issue
Thanks to everyone for the valuable and useful information in this thread, both about bilge pumps and especially about the use of an empty bilge and the possible righting implications. Please forgive the ignorance of a new Vega owner, but please would someone explain why (as several people have mentioned, and as I have experienced) the bilge takes water when it rains? Many thanks. Tom

Tom Fenton, Beowulf, V2977

vegatern · Sep 23, 2011

Like everyone else I guess, it's the locker lids. I need to replace the gasket and latches. Peter also suggested I replace the drain hose that drains the locker "gutter" to the cockpit. Its on my list Peter ;-)
Craig

vegatern · Sep 24, 2011

Thanks Brian
I will go ahead and finish the bilge chain locker by glassing in a solid bulkhead and building a secure lid for the chain. I think your suggestion about the mat is a good one. I like the weight down there, or rather the Tern likes it and I want her to be happy.
Somewhat related . . . Has anyone installed bulkheads below the cockpit lockers to separate the lockers from the main cabin? It seems that water tight bulkheads could be installed without much difficulty, though I don't have easy access to the forward part of the locker. I would need to remove the fuel tank in the port locker and the second water tank in the starboard to see what's there. Glassed in bulkheads would stiffen the hull, I don't think that's a bad thing, and prevent the cabin from being flooded should a lid come loose. I suppose mold could be more of a problem. Are there others?
Craig Tern 1519