electronics installation problem

[obsailor]

I recently bought & had Raymarine wireless wind, speed & depth instruments installed on my Catalina 30. The product (Tacktick) was purchased from a local chandlery and installed by a local rigger.

After the installation, I paid the rigger but found on going to the boat that the instruments were not working. The rigger came back and discovered the masthead unit was defective. He removed it and I sent the parts back to Raymarine under warranty. Raymarine found the masthead unit defective and replaced it.

The rigger came back to the boat and reinstalled the unit, and the unit then worked. The rigger has sent me a bill for an additional $450. I want to be fair but feel the rigger has some part of this since he did not test the unit before or after installing it, or even after re-installing it.

Any advice on the way to handle this? I will contact Raymarine to see if they will work with me to solve this problem. Thanks for any advice!

 

[hvbaker]

I sent my dear wife up the mast to replace the wind instrument. I understand your frustration, but if you can do these tasks yourself you will save big.

I agree the instrument should have been tested before being installed.

 

[Maine Sail]

A different perspective:

#1 You bought and supplied the instruments, the installer did not. Most installers will not and should not stand behind equipment they did not source or provide. There are far to many illegitimate sources out there of refurb, gray market, non-authorized dealers etc., for any installer to do so. They may choose to install it but warranty etc. is usually on the owner who supplied the product.

#2 It appears you hired a rigger not a marine electrician or electronics guy? That mast head unit install is three screws and well within the scope of the rigger. Drill, tap etc. done.. However, most riggers are not electronics guys so unless he told you up front he would do the commissioning and dealer set up, then again, that portion most likely falls on you. Did he wire the rest of the system into the vessel? Did he agree to set up and commissioning of the electronics? It also may have been working upon boot up and failed shortly there after..? TackTick stuff is VERY hit or miss.....

#3 If you had asked here in the forums, before buying TackTick, you probably would not have done so, at least if I had any input. I will no longer install TackTick products, even if an owner supplies it. I turned two customers away last summer alone, I just don't want to get involved, been there, done that far too many times.....

#4 It seems as if you were essentially paying the installer for his labor and not his electronics expertise? Did he state that he would do the dealer set up and calibration?

We know who is at fault here, TackTick/Raymarine. We also know Raymarine will not pay ANYONE SQUAT for labor reimbursement. If the installer agreed to do the dealer set up/commissioning then perhaps he should have some responsibility but that is a very tough call unless it was in a written quote...


I had a similar situation a while ago. Owner insisted on supplying all instruments, 12k worth, and asked me to install them, which I did. (he saved $360.00 over my quote on approx 12k worth of product or about 3%) I also let him know in writing, on the quote, that I was physical installation only and warranty was on him. He also lost extended factory support by not using me as a factory trained installer.

I spent considerable time designing the system and gave him an itemized list of all components needed, every single manufacturers part number. He spent nearly $100.00 in shipping returned items because he still ordered incorrect parts, cables etc.. (he's a die hard eBay guy) He also paid me for two hours of my time to drive an hour each way only to find out he'd ordered the wrong equipment, not the parts I specifically told him he needed.. His $360.00 in savings was nearly gone already.

When it came time to install the new radar he did not want to pay the extra yard fee for me to go to where his mast was stored and do the physical work. (yard tacks an extra 10% onto my labor as an outside contractor) In order to save $6.50 per hour, he had the yards riggers install the radome and run the wires down the spar. It was SLOPPY work that resulted in MAJOR expenses.

Long and short was he had to pay me an additional 4 hours for trouble shooting, pinning out every single cable in the system, swapping plotters to test for a dead network bus, only to find out that the radar cable was bad which then necessitated dropping the spar AGAIN.. Long story short was he would have paid about $1400.00 less if I had just done the whole job and he would have had additional warranty time. Instead, he paid me substantially more than the original quote plus had a huge yard bill for the second mast step re-step....

The key take away is that sometimes the money you save by sourcing the equipment yourself comes back in a bad way. This is most often true with electronics.

I have had my share of electronics fail that I sourced and installed and I have stood behind them, sometimes at considerable expense. I have had nightmare installs where I have lost four figures because a manufacturers product is so bad. But if I sourced it, sold it and installed it I stand behind it, part of the business.. This is why there are some products I now will no longer install, due to reliability.

 

[Nom De Guerre]

I hope you and your rigger resolve this fairly.

Hindsight is always 20/20, but to reiterate maine sail's points...

...convenience and long term peace of mind, while not priceless, do have a tangible value attached to them. The old adage penny wise, pound foolish comes to mind.

 

[Brad Woodward]

One other problem with wireless is that they are battery operated. The batteries last from two to three years and you can't replace just the batteries you have to buy a new unit. They never turn off so the batteries are draining all the time. I think they sell more units this way.

 

[hvbaker]

Maine Sail, we are really in agreement one can save a lot doing the work themselves. For example, I have complicated system compose of a Garmin 740s, Standard Horizon radio, TackTick/Raymarine, Raymarine Auto Pilot, and Vesper Class B transponder. All components are intergrated and working well together. The Vesper acts as a bridge and sends data to my iPad and iPhone running iNavX. Installation was easy after some study. I now truly understand the 183 protocol. The exercise was instructive, if not fun.

I am not so sure that TackTick is so hit or miss as their instructions are cryptic and all instruments initially have to be within 18 inches of each other to form a network. It may be that ones ability to follow the correct install protocol due to the cryptic instructions is hit or miss.

I fully understand your frustration with customers who want to do stuff on the cheep.

 

[Maine Sail]

I am not so sure that TackTick is so hit or miss as their instructions are cryptic and all instruments initially have to be within 18 inches of each other to form a network. It may be that ones ability to follow the correct install protocol due to the cryptic instructions is hit or miss.

I fully understand your frustration with customers who want to do stuff on the cheep.

I could write pages on why TackTick is hit or miss and a complete diatribe of the problems but I won't do that publicly. I have beat it around with Raymarine more times than Bobby Brown beat Whitney Huston and these issues are very, very frustrating. If you get lucky with TackTick that's good, some do. If you don't, well, not so good and many fall into this latter category. I also don't know why in today's day and age one would not just invest in an N2K wind, depth, speed vs. a proprietary system.

When I see failure/issue rates, real issues not "did not follow directions issues", into 50% range, I have to draw the line in the sand somewhere.

 

[Jongleur]

Maine Sail:

Can you elaborate on what is a "N2K wind, depth, speed"?

Thanks.

 

[hvbaker]

Maine Sail: Can you elaborate on what is a "N2K wind, depth, speed"? Thanks.

NMEA2000 is a communication protocol standard adopted in 2000. It replaces a somewhat more cumbersome NMEA 183 standard that was adopted in 1983. NMEA 2000 has taken a while to on catch due to the need for specialized cables that are expensive but looks to be gaining traction. NMEA 183 is still around and many instruments have ports for both protocols. People like NMEA 2000 because one does not need to be "cleaver" in connecting multiple instruments. With NMEA 183 each port can talk to 5 ports but can only listen to one port. Some instruments have multiple ports and/or bridge. NMEA 183 is complicated and is why installers get the big bucks. NMEA 2000 is more a kin to plug and play.

 

[rgarrison@gmail.com]

Just a thought, obsailor. Did you ask the rigger to inspect/test the masthead sensors? Did everyone assume they worked? Even so, I would make the case that he should have confirmed condition of the masthead sensors prior to installation of the read out units. He should have done this for goodwill and to prevent this from happening...or said in his work order that he DID NOT warrant the condition of the masthead sensors and any issues were the owners (you) responsibility.

Have you paid his bill?

Just my idle thoughts...I have the same instruments on my new boat and my antennae is up!

 

[rgarrison@gmail.com]

Brad, I hate to hear that about the batteries. I am buying a new boat and the PO installed a Tictac suite, loves them and so does the broker. I don't know how old the units are but will keep my eye on battery related issues. Forewarned is forearmed!

Buyer beware!

Where are you in San Diego? as you can see, I am in Dana Point.

Randy

 

[Anonymous 121765]

OB,

Heed what Mainsail said in detail pal.

There are two types of owners out there, #1 the hands-on, do-it-yourself owner & #2, owners preferring to have other experienced people do the fixes, upgrades and/or repairs.

Both approaches are fine but, what I see as most problematic are that, the #2 owners do not do enough research upfront or in Main's case barreled ahead thus creating bigger problems @ greater expense. Then afterwards, lament feeling that they were ripped off when in fact, they ripped themselves off thru ignorance or inattention to detail.

Knowledge is power, no-knowledge is a forbearer to problems & payouts. Do your research first, then re-check to confirm this info again & confer with those having experience BEFORE deciding what path to take. The more owners do up front, the less problems arise on the back end.

It's that simple, some just need to change their paradigms when approaching a project.
Learn from Mainsail, he's been doing this for years now & always calls it straight.

CR

 

[George Da Porge]

There are two types of owners out there, #1 the hands-on, do-it-yourself owner & #2, owners preferring to have other experienced people do the fixes, upgrades and/or repairs.

I would offer that there are 3 types of owners:
1a. DIYs who do most things as cheaply as possible, w/o thinking long term, and probably spend more $$ and time because of that philosophy.
1b. DIYs who take pride in doing things the right way the first time, doing the research needed to educate themselves to the task at hand, and having the proper materials and tools to perform the task. 1b owners will also know in which situations they need to be a type 2 owner (and/or when it's beneficial).
2. As Captnron described above.

I pride myself in being a 1b. I'll tackle just about anything as long as I think the outcome will be reasonably "professional". It will certainly take me longer than a true professional, but I enjoy it, and that's also where I save $$.

I would say most people on these forums are 1b or 2, because they are taking the time to research and learn.

As Maine Sail alluded to, if you pay too much for something, all you've done is pay too much. But if you pay too little [upfront] you could very well end up paying far more in the long run. Not just in $$, but also in frustration and time lost.

Not really sure what the point of my little speech here is! I guess just echoing Maine Sail's and Captnron's excellent feedback! I've spent too much time writing it to turn back now!! ??

 

[Anonymous 121765]

George,

Well put. Great minds think alike.

An additional perk for the 1b'ers, is the satisfaction they get at the end of a well planed project. That's the, "Feel Good" part you get which of its own is priceless.

CR

 

[chrisings]

George,

Well put. Great minds think alike.

An additional perk for the 1b'ers, is the satisfaction they get at the end of a well planed project. That's the, "Feel Good" part you get which of its own is priceless.

CR

Agreed 100%. I use to make my living working with my hands. Time and age took its toll so now I drive a desk but I still enjoy "fixing" something. Fiddling about my boat is my most cherished time. But yes, I know when to cry uncle. Well maybe sometimes I wait too long:naughty:

 

[jrowan]

I think all the complications & potential installation failures that you guys have brought up are why I haven't bothered to install digital wind instruments. While I would like to not have to crane my neck to the top of the mast to read my apparent wind indicator arrow, it is completely reliable, easy to install, inexpensive, & clearly states the apparent wind direction, without all the drama.

 

[C30skpr]

Recently installed all new Raymarine electonics E7 MFD, Radar, Autopilot, depth, wind & speed. Raymarine was very good in working with me, they have an excellent website....

 

[jimmcgee]

Four rules so even a big dumb Irishman can install electronics

Rule 1: take your time, understand what you're doing. Read through the entire installation with your morning coffee - including that little table in the back for troubleshooting common problems. If you know what some of the common mistakes are you can avoid making them yourself.

Rule 2: don't trust your memory, follow the instructions step by step.

Rule 3: I'll do the complete install on my workbench before I head down to the boat. I make sure everything is working properly and if possible I'll leave the whole works running for a couple of days to burn in. If electronics are going to fail they usually fail in the first few hours.

I use a 12v power supply from Radio Shack, but you can find one in most places that sell car electronics.

If everything worked on my bench but it doesn't work on the boat I know the problem is with the installation/wiring and not with the gear. It makes troubleshooting a lot easier.

Rule 4: The biggest thing is take your time. Think out your connections and wire runs. You're not a pro who has to work on a clock, so you have the advantage of no time pressure. If what you're seeing doesn't make sense, have another cup of coffee or a beer. Walk away from it for a few minutes. Sometimes that's all it takes for things to click.