Electro Scan Waste Treatment System

[Blitz]

I seriously considering installing Electro Scan Waste Treatment System into my boat (or other suggestions. I currently have a holding tank of about 6 gallons which I was thinking/needing to replace but it might be better to go all the way and get a treatment unit. I was thinking I could bypass the unit when out greater than 3 miles. I have a relatively new Raritan PHC Toilet

I'm asking the forum for some real world advice on this. I interested in knowing are these units a lot of maintenance or as good and bullet proof (in my opinion) as their (Raritan) heads. Is winterizing a chore and what ate the most common items to go wrong or need replacing. Are they a current draw, in that they just eats batteries?

A little bout my boating needs: I'm many at the dock or cruising inland or coastal areas. Never really going too far or two long (week or less only a couple of times per year). Other than that a lot of day sailing and some over nights in the local cove. My season is generally 4 - 5 months.

thanks for your help.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Maintenance is minimal and easy...

And I think most of your questions and concerns are covered in the owners manual, which you'll find here: http://www.raritaneng.com/products/waste_treatment/electroscan.htm

However...I wouldn't eliminate the holding tank altogether, 'cuz there are some NDZs in NJ and other waters within the cruising limits you described...you'll find all those on the EPA site here: EPA NDZ list . 6 gallons is definitely a bit small...I'd try to find room for at least 10. Ronco Plastics is your best source http://ronco-plastics.com.

You'll have more questions after you've checked out everything I've given you here...and I'll be glad to answer 'em.

 

[KD3PC]

A wise man at my marina, suggested holding off on a pricey installation of sewage treatment systems aboard boats....his reasoning is that the EPA and the new administration, and several states have pending legislation (MD just ignored this for the year) that would make NDZ the normal on the east coast...

I asked how long to hold off, and he says at least a year.

It is important that key manufacturers and we as boat owners keep on our reps to NOT ban discharge of correctly treated effluent or water that has been brought aboard for cooling and air from the water we boat in.

I am NOT advocating dumping sewage, oil, or anything else...just some degree of common sense in making these new laws.....something I have not seen yet in the pending cases.

YMMV, good luck in finding a knowledgeable installer...my HnT system was going to be almost $5K with install...

 

[Blitz]

YMMV, good luck in finding a knowledgeable installer...my HnT system was going to be almost $5K with install...

I reviewed the installation manual and it seems pretty straight forward on the install. It will get more complicated and space consuming if I keep a holding tank, electro scan and direct overboard discharge though.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

I'd skip the direct discharge option...

The ElectroScan and PuraSan do not have pumps...they discharge by overflowing. And, although the amperage DRAW looks a little scary, the actual AH consumption is less than 20/day for most cruising couples. So if you have to be exceptionally conservative with power when at sea beyond the "3 mile limit" it's only necessary to run the device when solids and/or any TP are flushed....'cuz those must be macerated to prevent clogging the device. So unless you have a gastro-intestinal problem, you should only need to run it once or twice a day per person. If you really need to conserve power when at sea, the TP needed by women for liquid waste onlycan go into the trash. So I wouldn't bother with trying to figure out how to bypass it.

As for environmental issues, I'm seeing the trend toward ND beginning to reverse, partly in reaction to all the sewage treatment plant spills. And people have also waked up to the fact that ND really only impacts the 5% of boat owners who have installed, or would install, treatment devices...the other 95% have already been required to use a holding tank for 30 years! Even the MD marine trades association, which historically has been VERY enviro-conscious, reversed its support for a recent proposed MD statewide ND law. The MD legislature hasn't just ignored it, they've decided to table it for now (translation: "forget about it until/unless there's less opposition from voters"). But even if it passes, there's the question of whether it would even apply to the Chesapeake Bay, because the Bay is an interstate waterway...and federal law specifically allows the discharge of TREATED waste from CG certified Type I and II MSDs on interstate waterways. The EPA can't change that.

If we all waited to do anything because something may or may not happen to impact it, we'd spend our whole lives sitting and waiting...nothing would ever get done!

$5k to install the system??? Assuming that the materials for the ES and HnT are about $1500, and assuming a labor charge of $80/hr...that's 43.75 man hours! That's ridiculous! The only part of it that anyone who has even a little more mechanical ability than is needed to turn a doorknob should even consider paying for is the wiring...and I'd get a few more quotes to do that before I'd hire those folks to do it.

 

[Blitz]

I think this clears things up:

A Y valve will either direct it to the Electro scan or a holding tank depending if I 'm in a NDZ. Since I don't currently have a macerater I'll need to put one in or a pump after the holding tank to dump the tank outside of 3 miles.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

By Jove I think you've got it!

However, you MIGHT want to check out Raritan's "Hold 'n' Treat" system before buying a macerator.

 

[Blitz]

However, you MIGHT want to check out Raritan's "Hold 'n' Treat" system before buying a macerator.

I already looked into the Hold and Treat system, I only have 17" of height in the location where the tank is to be located.

So -

At 18.25 of height, it's too tall

and overall, it's pretty expensive (although meets all of my needs)

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Re "Hold 'n' Treat" system

You didn't read carefully enough...you don't have to buy the holding tank shown...that's just Raritan's "off the shelf package" for houseboats and powerboats with deep bilges....the system can be used with any holding tank. In fact, if you already have the tank, the treatment device and a macerator pump, all you need are the controls. You might want to go back to the Waste Treatment page on the Raritan site and take another look. http://www.raritaneng.com/products/waste_treatment/index.html

 

[KD3PC]

Blitz and the group,

I "built" a cardboard model of the treatment unit and played with it and my space to find a good location, I was surprised how small it actually was. I have all the other pieces in place and if you have the treatment unit, all you need are the controls and some tank monitors. 90% of your work is done.

A local hunter dealer did quote almost 50 hours for install/labor, one that I find ludicrous...and they attached a disclaimer..
service center has not installed any Raritan systems. Hunter Marine uses Jabsco Marine Sanitation products. We have had extensive experience with the P42 sanitary systems.

I have looked at the system that you inquired about. It may be able to be installed, but we would have to make a final decision after looking at the boat. The job, in any event, will be labor intensive. Total materials will range in cost between $2500.00 and $3000.00. The labor is estimated to be approximately 47.5 hours at $65.00/hr. - $3087.50. Total +$5587.50. Taxes and shipping are not included in this estimate.

Insane enough that I am going to install it myself....as the local Raritan trained guy, has issues with HnT and how it works...

details via PM if you are interested.

 

[Head Master18695]

The problem with the Hold N Treat System is that it is a relatively new product and not all that many installers are familiar with it yet - so they're afraid of it! It generally takes between 5 and 7 years after a marine sanitation product comes on the market before the bulk of the installers (as well as the public) become familiar with it. However it isn't all that complicated, and anyone with reasonable mechanical and electrical ability should be able to install it themself.

The Hold N Treat "component system," as opposed to the "complete system," is a good deal more complicated to install than the complete system with the built-in holding tank, and if going that route, hiring a professional wouldn't be a bad idea. Again, many of the professionals haven't even heard of, or seen one, yet - so don't expect miracles from a professional either, just yet.

 

[sailingdog]

Of course, anyone with a modicum of mechanical aptitude and a decent amount of common sense shouldn't have any issues installing one themselves. The most complicated part is probably the electrical... but that is relatively simple compared to some other installations you could make on a boat.

Crimp the connections using adhesive-lined heat-shrink insulated terminals, and you'll have a system that will go a long time.

 

[KD3PC]

head Master and the group,

a differing view....perhaps, but one the manufacturer should consider.

In my world of IT and computers, we were to be the "experts" -trained, well read, and knowledgeable of the products we sold and supported.

I look to the "factory trained" people to be at least well read enough to answer questions or simply say...."I'll get back to you" with an answer. I have not found either to be the case with the two closest "factory" installers of this product. I was even invited by a trade magazine to do an interview about this issue, but declined as I felt it would be a hit against an otherwise unknowing manufacturer.

But when I call the manufacturer...they should try and see the issue from the customer side. In this case the manufacturer referred me to an installer (who btw, has yet to return several emails and phone calls) who is over 125 miles away, also wants 50+ hours to do the install and wants me to pay for the transient slip where he works and to provide a "helper".

Now if that installer was an expert, perhaps he should be able to install said unit, in at least half the time, I - as a total novice in HnT, not more..at a minimum he should be well versed enough on the product to know that the holding tank needs a monitor or some mechanism for metering the operation.

If they were afraid of it...then they could do like the dealer and add a disclaimer, or like I would in my line, if it is the "first" I have done, offer a reduced rate for the hours, knowing that it will take a shade longer for the install to be done, correctly. I, as the installer, would then document, take pictures, and notice any engineering gotchas and let the factory know.

I would hire a "professional" tomorrow, if one were available, with the knowledge and experience to do the job correctly the first time and one that would then warrant the work he has just completed, regardless if it is the "component or complete" system. Pretty hard to do 125 miles away by water, double that by land, for someone who won't leave the pier he works on.

Sorry, in this day and age and economy, that is a truly draconian way to expect customers to buy your product. Even your response sends mixed messages...about the install. IF the installer is not competent or comfortable doing the install - he should not be on the manufacturer list of installers..doing so invites a disaster that the manufacturer and the tech do not need...

dave


Again details via PM, if anyone is interested.

dave

 

[Head Master18695]

<< I look to the "factory trained" people to be at least well read enough to answer questions or simply say...."I'll get back to you" with an answer. I have not found either to be the case with the two closest "factory" installers of this product. I look to the "factory trained" people to be at least well read enough to answer questions or simply say...."I'll get back to you" with an answer. I have not found either to be the case with the two closest "factory" installers of this product. >>

You're going under the assumption that there is such a thing as a "factory-trained" installer, as opposed to a "factory-authorized" installer. They are two completely different kettles of fish. Raritan for the most part, does not have "factory-trained" installers as Raritan is a relatively small company, and the installers can't, in most cases, afford to take the time off to come into the factory to be trained. Raritan doesn't have the resources either financially or in manpower, to send people out to them, to train them. While we welcome installers coming in for factory training, there are travel costs, food and lodging costs, etc., that the average installer simply cannot afford. We offer telephone and other support during normal business hours, Mon-Fri, as well as support via e-mail. But we don't have troubleshooters or trainers that are flown all over the country - the company simply cannot afford to do it. Thus my statement about it commonly taking 5-7 years before a new product becomes familiar to all...

 

[sailingdog]

I'd point out that comparing the IT world and the Marine Plumbing industry is comparing Apples to cranberries... not the same thing at all. The IT world involves economies of scale that make factory trained technical representatives cost effective. The marine plumbing industry just doesn't have the infrastructure, the economies of scale or the demand for any such thing.

HP's annual budget is several orders of magnitude greater than Raritan's. The number of companies that use HP equipment dwarfs the number of consumers and companies that use Raritan's products. Several of the companies I work with probably spend as much on IT equipment and their installation as Raritan's entire customer base spends on its products per year.

In my world of IT and computers, we were to be the "experts" -trained, well read, and knowledgeable of the products we sold and supported.

I look to the "factory trained" people to be at least well read enough to answer questions or simply say...."I'll get back to you" with an answer. I have not found either to be the case with the two closest "factory" installers of this product. I was even invited by a trade magazine to do an interview about this issue, but declined as I felt it would be a hit against an otherwise unknowing manufacturer.

But when I call the manufacturer...they should try and see the issue from the customer side. In this case the manufacturer referred me to an installer (who btw, has yet to return several emails and phone calls) who is over 125 miles away, also wants 50+ hours to do the install and wants me to pay for the transient slip where he works and to provide a "helper".

 

[Blitz]

I would plan on doing the install myself, and Raritan from what I've experienced has excellent customer service for such things during normal business hours.

I'll call them to see if I can somehow get a shallower tank to help with my clearance issue. I'm only on the fence whether to do it this spring or wait to the fall.