Electrical....

Davidasailor26 · Nov 29, 2016

Corrosion in the ground could cause that kind of voltage drop. I would also be concerned that if the AGM batteries were left discharged, they likely don't have their original capacity. I'm curious how the surveyor would decide they were ok, given that the only info he would have to go by is the voltage and charge current at a point in time.

bawlmer · Nov 29, 2016

If the engine started right away the ground wire to the engine is OK. I am sure the bow thruster has its own ground wire direct to the battery bank. If the ground (or hot) wire from the batteries to the thruster was bad then the instruments would not shut down. The feed for the instruments would have to be on the same side of the fault as the thruster. Given that the thruster is such a high current device it is unlikely it was fed through the main panel. That would kind of rule out wiring unless it was a high current connection close to the batteries. It is also possible the bow thruster draws at least as much or more current than the starter. I would charge the batteries full and repeat the test or at least subtract the cost of replacement batteries from the price. Whether they need charging or replacement, my money is on the batteries.

Ron20324 · Nov 30, 2016

Ground buss "on the engine..."? Sounds like it is being soaked by water. "Buss" should not be on the engine. Engine should not be used as a path for the DC circuitry. Do you mean a number of ground wires are on the engine? Ideally, there should be a buss bar NOT on the engine, then one cable to the engine for it's ground. Or did the surveyor pass this system?

DougM · Nov 30, 2016

It wouldn't matter to me whether the batteries on a boat I was considering had batteries that tested good or not. It,would be a no brainer to replace them. How the previous owner maintained them is always questionable.

The batteries not being fully charged and/or the voltage drop due to the length of cable to the bow thruster probably resulted in enough of a reduction in voltage to shut down the instruments.

Gunni · Nov 30, 2016

Add the cost of replacement batteries to your offer calculation. Those just failed the most basic of load testing.

Justin_NSA · Nov 30, 2016

And AGMs are really expensive, so don't get stuck with having to replace them yourself if you can. I'm not sure they are your best choice. Maybe ease the sellers pain by agreeing to some other deep cycle type. I'll submit this advice to the experts.

Scott T-Bird · Nov 30, 2016

I'll take the sellers point of view ... "Hey, I know the batteries are questionable so I already accounted for it in my price - which is firm. So I'm not giving you a deduction for batteries again." How do you respond to that? Would you walk away because you're hard-headed about the batteries?
It's still a negotiation. If the seller was going to accept a deduction for every imperfection, then he may as well start at the price of a new boat.

Justin_NSA · Nov 30, 2016

My seller listed it "as is" which provides a clear understanding. Still, everything is a negotiation. Success is based on motivation.

Scott T-Bird · Nov 30, 2016

Yes, motivation is the key. Going back to Gunni's point. Buyer has no obligation to detail exactly how he arrives at an offer to buy. So he factors in the batteries but doesn't provide the Seller with an opportunity to make a counter-argument based on that specific point (the one that I presented).

Davidasailor26 · Nov 30, 2016

Scott T-Bird said:
I'll take the sellers point of view ... "Hey, I know the batteries are questionable so I already accounted for it in my price - which is firm. So I'm not giving you a deduction for batteries again." How do you respond to that?

Per the OP, "Broker later told us they were discharged..... (not dead) and only plugged in for about 2 hours before we came". If the broker (presumably seller's broker) asserts that the batteries were discharged but usable, and they were later found unusable, then there should be an adjustment for that. Of course, I agree that ultimately everything is a negotiation. Whether the price is reduced "because of the batteries", for some other reason, or not at all, the the seller is going to set a price and the buyer is going to have to accept or walk.

Justin_NSA · Nov 30, 2016

From the OP it doesn't read like the broker or the surveyor are admitting new batteries are needed. It will be the buyer's task to be compensated if they are.

Justin_NSA · Nov 30, 2016

Davidasailor26 said:
Per the OP, "Broker later told us they were discharged..... (not dead) and only plugged in for about 2 hours before we came". If the broker (presumably seller's broker) asserts that the batteries were discharged but usable, and they were later found unusable, then there should be an adjustment for that. Of course, I agree that ultimately everything is a negotiation. Whether the price is reduced "because of the batteries", for some other reason, or not at all, the the seller is going to set a price and the buyer is going to have to accept or walk.

I was late. What David said.

Gunni · Nov 30, 2016

A used boat will come with wear and tear, but all systems (including batteries) are to be in workable condition; or the boat is to be sold "as is" which establishes that this is a less than average boat at a price reflected neglected maintenance. If you are buying a boat from a seller who has not maintained a critical ship's system (batteries) , you are dealing with a sub-par boat. At this point I am sure NYSail has a spreadsheet full of boats and sale prices and know what a good boat sells for, a average boat sells for, and an "as is" boat sells for. He can fit this boat to that continuum.

Scott T-Bird said:
"Hey, I know the batteries are questionable so I already accounted for it in my price - which is firm. So I'm not giving you a deduction for batteries again." How do you respond to that?

You respond by showing him that you know more about the Beneteau423 market than he does. Sellers can be possessive, and delusional. NYSail should know exactly what the market looks like. Beyond that, this is the worst time of the year to be selling a boat, so the seller is motivated to not incur winter storage costs over the cost of some price off-sets. My guess is he has been screwing around with this sale too long and walked himself into a dead end.

Scott T-Bird · Nov 30, 2016

The condition of the "ground buss on engine" does seem to raise a red flag. I can't even visualize what that would be. Shouldn't there just be one cable grounded to the engine as Ron indicated?

MitchM · Nov 30, 2016

our last experience with lifeline batteries: they lasted 4 years . they were quite expensive, even when purchased at annapolis boat show at roughly 20% discount off list. during their last season, we noticed they'd charge up to 100% using the on board charger but then discharged so rapidly under load as to become virtually unusable by the end of a sailing week end.
this season we are switching to Deka East Penn (a made in USA battery ) . we'll monitor how many seasons we'll get from them.

Scott T-Bird · Nov 30, 2016

Gunni said:
A used boat will come with wear and tear, but all systems (including batteries) are to be in workable condition; or the boat is to be sold "as is" which establishes that this is a less than average boat at a price reflected neglected maintenance. If you are buying a boat from a seller who has not maintained a critical ship's system (batteries) , you are dealing with a sub-par boat.

Are batteries that are near the end of their useful life "neglected maintenance"? Would you replace old batteries just prior to selling the boat just so you can represent with clear conscience that the batteries are perfect? It sounds like the batteries are still "useful" enough to start the engine and the surveyor seems to have signed-off despite the corrosion on the buss bar and the trouble with the current. Maybe the surveyor isn't quite doing his job when he says batteries are "ok"? It seems like a gray area to me when it comes to replacement items. I agree, the Seller may have been too unreasonable in the past and walked into a bad position. OTOH, if I was shopping and found the right boat, I doubt I would get hung up over the replacement cost for batteries. If that is the only obstacle, it sounds like a pretty small hump to get over for both parties. Maybe there are other issues?

Gunni · Nov 30, 2016

Scott T-Bird said:
Are batteries that are near the end of their useful life "neglected maintenance"?

No, but that is not what is going on here. The broker stated that the batteries "were discharged", THAT is neglected maintenance and a very quick way to kill a battery. Especially an AGM. AGM batteries should never be left in partial state of charge for any significant period of time. The fact that these were is a red flag -the boat is being neglected.

Justin_NSA · Nov 30, 2016

4D AGM Lifeline batteries are over $500 each. Just sayin'

jeepbluetj · Nov 30, 2016

And, unless you need the specific advantages that AGM gives you, why use AGMs? FLA is cheaper, more forgiving, and often higher capacity. And, if you have AGMs, you definitely need a way to keep them at 100% SOC except during use. Partial state of charge kills them quick.

Based on how the vast majority of boaters treat their batteries, I'd assume that batteries in a used boat are at least half-shot, likely more than that and budget for replacement.