Electrical Question

[wgkenney]

All,

I've been working through a simple electical drawing for my boat (Beneteau 473). After going through sevearl of the manuals and a few discussions with tech support I have a first draft attached. I do have a couple of questions if you have a minute to help out.

1) I have just replaced batteries and I want to ensure that the echo charger function on my Freedom Marine 20 charger / inverter connected to the batteries right. I've been reading many of the posts here on this forum about separate echo charger from Xantrax used with a 1-2- both switch. But my echo charger is part of the Freedom 20 and I have the Beneteau On/Off battery switches. If I am reading my schematic correctly, when I have the start switch closed then the start battery and the house bank are paralleled. So the start battery is getting the full charge from the charger. So for the echo charger to work correctly and trickle the start battery do I need to open the start switch and isolate the start battery? Then the echo charge wire from the front of the Freedom will feed the echo charge to the start battery? The Freedom / Link manual is not very clear on how this works.

2) If 1) is true then I think I should be able to set my battery switches with the Genset closed, inverter closed, house closed and start open. I can start my diesel on the house, as others have suggested, and the start becomes my reserve with the echo charger keeping it topped off. No more switching the battery switches before I start the diesel.

3) I'm not sure what the Inverter switch does. It isolates the charger / inverter but I'm not sure why I would want to do this except when doing work on the system. Is there an operational reason to ever open this switch? The PO told me that one battery was dedicated to the inverter and this switch connected that battery ... but in tracing the system out this is not true. It is connects as shown.

4) Last question. If my house dies and I have to start my diesel from the reserve battery. I think I am suppose to open the house swtich, close the start switch and start the diesel. Is it then okay to close the house swtich so that the house charges. I was always told not to touch the battery switches when the alternator was running.

As always any help would be great.

 

[Barnacle Bill]

You got lots of cool stuff on your boat. Just to hit on some issues. a. You never want to have your inverter running when you are connected to shore power. b. There should be a switch to toggle back and forth between your shore power and genset. c. One battery should be dedicated to start your genset and the others for the Yanmar and house use. d. You should have one battery dedicated to start your Yanmar and the other batteries dedicated for house use and refrigeration use. e. Get in the habit of switching to the starting battery (not deep cycle) when you start and use the engine. When you are at anchor, or not using the inboard engine, then switch to the house batteries. This way you will always have a topped off engine starting battery when you need to start the engine. Only when this battery is dead will you go to the house batteries to start your engine. But, if you get in this habit you will find your starting battery will always be ready to roll.

 

[wgkenney]

Hi Bill,

Thanks for the Reply. Good points. A couple of things:

A) I usually am pretty good at turning the inverter off when I connect shore power. But one of the neat features on the Link 1000 and Freedom 20 is that as soon as AC is detected on the system (so shore or genset) the inverter is automatically switched off and the inverter loads are passed directly to the AC source

B) There is a manual swtich on each AC panel. Actually it is two switches with a slider between them. The slider prevents me from turning both shore power and Genset / Inveter on at the same time. I generally just switch it when I connect or disconnect shore power

C) D) I am set up as you suggested. The genset battery is completely separate and can only be used with the genset. It functions more like a car battery. It starts the genset then is charged off of an alternator on the genset.

E) I am anal about switching the start battery. But I do occasionally forget.

E) was actually part of what I was trying to get some resolution on. My Freedom Marine 20 has a built in Echo charger, but I think that if I have the start battery "on line" it is taking the full charge current along with the echo charge current (when on line it is directly paralleled with the house bank and charger). So I was trying to understand if I need to isloate that battery during extended charges so it is not over charged and gets the full benefit of the echo charger. Maine Sail and some other have pointed out that the House Battery Bank is more than capable to start the diesel and that keeping the start battery as a total reserve battery is an alternative to how I am doing it now. It would also mean that I don't need to switch batteries unless I need to use that reserve if house batteries area dead.

 

[Don12364]

A Big Subject

As you appreciate it is a big subject with many personal preferences involved.
I don't think the Freedom 20 is an 'Echo Charger'. It is a simple multi stage charger and has no capability to echo one battery to another. In your case that's good.
The place for an echo charger is between whichever bank your main charger is connected to and the genset battery.
Like yourself I see no purpose for the Inverter Switch.
Please be reassured that the Freedom Combo has internal circuitry that checks to see if shore power (or genset) is present before allowing the inverter to start up.

From a quick look see at your diagram the one thing that appears to be missing is a combiner relay. This normally sits between the house battery positive and the start battery positive. It comes in automatically when one battery (or either in my case) is being charged.
In your case you can simulate this by remembering to make both engine and start switches when on shore power or genset and this is the rub because you can just as easily forget to open them again when finished charging so it is possible to deplete both batts without realising the engine battery is still in circuit. The combiner connects and disconnects for you automatically.

BTW I am meaning a straightforward combiner relay and not meaning a Blue Sea Automatic Charging Relay which have a tendency to keep the batteries connected long after the charging source has been turned off and which can chatter when a large capacity house battery is jumped across a small engine start one. The latest ACRs are slugged but I understand they still do this - but now in slow time.

The combiner ensures that both batteries have charging available to them whenever a suitable charging source is available. Charging both house and start batteries when paralleled up is not a problem, even if they are at different states of charge. The lower charged one draws most of the current until its voltage equals the other battery. The multi stage charger copes with all this too and doesn't cause either to become overcharged.

I also note that, when you wish to leave the boat, but with the Freedom charging the house batteries from shore power, it is necessary to leave both house and engine master switches ON. This rather negates the purpose of having master switches and I, for one, could not sleep easy at home with this system where everything was live ready to cause a fire in the event of an unlikely(?) short somewhere.

However otherwise it looks an excellent arrangement.
No doubt Stu or Maine will wish to add to this too.

 

[mitiempo]

The Freedom does have a built-in Echo Charge. The start battery switch can be left open when on shore power and the start battery will be taken care of by the Freedom's Echo Charge output. The Freedom 20 has one Echo Charge output, the Freedom 25 and 30 each have two Echo outputs. A combiner is not necessary. I have installed several of the Freedom units.

I have only ever switched an inverter off with a separate switch when working on the wiring - it is handy for that but nothing else really.

Your start switch also acts as a parallel switch. I would re-configure this so the house and start banks were not being paralleled during starting. The way to do this would be to remove the wire linking the start and house switches. I would replace it with a separate switch between the battery side of the house switch and the engine side of the start switch. This will allow you to start from the house bank without paralleling the banks, which there is not a reason to do. This will allow the Echo Charge in the Freedom to work properly.

 

[wgkenney]

Re: A Big Subject

Donalex,

Thanks for the reply. You are correct in that I am the combiner switch right now. And to your point I do occasionally forget to isolate the start battery after a charge. Usually an alternator charge when I secure the diesel and forget to go below.

I do leave the switches made for charging when I leave. Mostly to keep the fridge up and running so we don't have to take home food from the freezer and reefer each week (we sail every weekend when the boat is not on the hard). I need to rethink that, especially if we know we are going to have to miss a weekend.

 

[wgkenney]

Mitiempo,

If I just leave the start switch open I can start the diesel on the house bank and the start battery will be handled by the echo as you confirmed in your first para. Is there an advantage to installing the seperate switch to start off the house bank. I have seen that suggestion in several other threads and was curious about the advantage.

 

[seadaddler]

Confusing system

My 07 Hunter -36 has a panda 4200 gen and charger/inverter with 2 /4D's and that is how it was set5up from the factory and dealer.
What I did is a miner change and that is I now have 4/6 volt one large house bank and the alternator charges the house bank only and the start battery connected to the starter and Gen with a switch to connect the start and house bank only when needed.
The house bank is charged from the inverter /charger with either Gen or shore power and has a auto switching system to prevent both from being connected at the same time and the start battery is charged from the echo charge on the inverter/charge,from the remote xantrax I control charging on or off and also inverter on or off and also gives battery info condition.
Just sounds like too many switches for your system.

 

[mitiempo]

That is correct, by leaving the start switch open the house alone can be used to start. The problem as I see it is that when you close the switch the banks are paralleled. As noted you leave it open for the Echo to do its job. But there is no reason in my mind to ever combine the banks. If one bank is not able to start the other should be used by itself.

If the house bank were to be used for both starting and house loads, as Maine, Stu and myself prefer, the "start" switch can be re-labeled as the "emergency start" switch and only used when the house switch is open.

 

[mitiempo]

seadaddler

It is a bit busy. While I wouldn't design a system with as many switches they are there and wgkenney is used to them and knows what each is for.

What would I do differently? Starting from scratch the house and start switches use could be controlled by a single 1/2/both/off switch with the #2 position the emergency battery and labeled as such. Using the house for everything would only require switching to #1 when arriving and to off when leaving.

I also do not see a good reason for switching the negative as is common on Beneteau and some other European boats. On one boat I wired we did install a negative switch in a hidden location for theft proofing when thought necessary. Leaving the negative switch open would leave the shaft zinc ineffective I think though.

The inverter switch is handy on occasion as I mentioned but certainly doesn't have to be visible - installed behind a panel near the inverter is a good place for it.

 

[wgkenney]

My 07 Hunter -36 has a panda 4200 gen and charger/inverter with 2 /4D's and that is how it was set5up from the factory and dealer.
What I did is a miner change and that is I now have 4/6 volt one large house bank and the alternator charges the house bank only and the start battery connected to the starter and Gen with a switch to connect the start and house bank only when needed.
The house bank is charged from the inverter /charger with either Gen or shore power and has a auto switching system to prevent both from being connected at the same time and the start battery is charged from the echo charge on the inverter/charge,from the remote xantrax I control charging on or off and also inverter on or off and also gives battery info condition.
Just sounds like too many switches for your system.

Agreed! I think it could have been put together a bit more simply (See Mitiempo post above). In all honesty now that I have traced the system out I can actually ignore most of the switches. BTW I also just switched to 6V batteries (6 in my house bank) as recommended by many people here.

I do like your auto switching to keep the gen and shore from being on at the same time. I'm doing that manually now. Also looks like you have done a nice job simplifying yours.

 

[wgkenney]

Thanks, I see your point and it makes sense. As noted above Beneteau put a lot of switches on this boat and for the most part there is really only one that makes a real difference. The rest can mostly be ignored unless I am bringing systems down to work on them.

I'm going to start by relabling the "start" switch as you suggested and use that set up. Adding the other switch can be a project for this winter.

 

[mitiempo]

Sounds like a sensible plan. Good luck.

 

[Benny17441]

Leave it to the French. Why does Benetau use two separate battery switches when a single switch would do? I have not been able to figure out that one out yet. Mi tiempo I believe the effectiveness of the shaft zinc or sacrificial anode rests on the fact that it is made of a softer alloy which will corrode before the shaft does as it protects it from any stray electrical current in the water. It would have nothing to do with your electrical system unless it had a leak. I do agree with the unnecessary redundancy of the inverter switch but also consider its convenience as it allows to work on the wiring and unit without having to disconnect the source. Most currently use the "make before break" battery switches as they allow the switches to be moved among closed circuit positions, to combine or substitute battery banks, while the engine is running. There might be a reason why Benetau owners may be warned not to touch their battery switches.

 

[Gunni]

All,

3) I'm not sure what the Inverter switch does. It isolates the charger / inverter but I'm not sure why I would want to do this except when doing work on the system. Is there an operational reason to ever open this switch? The PO told me that one battery was dedicated to the inverter and this switch connected that battery ... but in tracing the system out this is not true. It is connects as shown.

Powered up inverters have a parasitic load even when idle, and as you have noted if you don't have your starter battery switch open your idling inverter could slowly take down your entire battery bank.

 

[Ron20324]

Leave it to the French. Why does Benetau use two separate battery switches when a single switch would do? I have not been able to figure out that one out yet.... ...There might be a reason why Benetau owners may be warned not to touch their battery switches.

Benny owners wonder why people insist a 1-2-/both switch is the only way to go. One switch breaks, and you got nothin. 2 switches is a better way:cussing:

Benneteau iowners are NOT told to not touch their battery switches. ALL boat owners are told to not switch their batteries from full off to on so they don't blow the alternator

 

[mitiempo]

Benny

You are correct, the shaft and propeller will be protected by the shaft zinc, not because it is softer but because it is more active or anodic.

I still do not know why the negative switch is there - wonder what Beneteau's reasoning is?

 

[mitiempo]

Benneteau iowners are NOT told to not touch their battery switches. ALL boat owners are told to not switch their batteries from full off to on so they don't blow the alternator[/QUOTE]

With the proper wiring - alt to house and house to start via an ACR or Echo - this is not a problem. It would be nice if more builders adopted this wiring plan.

 

[mitiempo]

Gunni

The Link 1000 allows remote turn off of the inverter. No current will flow if it is turned off this way.

 

[Gunni]

I still do not know why the negative switch is there - wonder what Beneteau's reasoning is?

Full DC system disconnect and easy storage of the batteries.