I'm having a problem with the electrical system on my 1981 H30. I press the start button for the engine and nothing happens other than the warning buzzer comes on. The engine doesn't turn over. I wait a couple of seconds and repeat. Same result. On the third try, the engine turns over and starts with not problem. I'm afraid something is going bad, but I don't know what. Does anyone have suggestions? Thank you.
Electrical problem...engine start delay
- Thread starter AndyO
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Andy, You could have problems with the contact surfaces on the push button switch. I have had the same problem and have replaced the push button switch twice over the last 12+ years. Doing so solved the problem. Another possibility is the contacts on the Keyed ignition switch also. I an suspecting mine now.
Many people have fought this issue on different boats, not just Hunters. You will get advice that eventually will have you replacing everything and I did. You can try the pushbutton and then heavier wire. I had a couple of scary situations and went for the best solution: http://hunter.sailboatowners.com/in...&cat_id=38&aid=7175&page=article&mn=37-cutter .
I started having a similar problem the last few times i've been out. Push the start button nothing happens push it a couple more times and it fires right up. I was out yesterday after a great day of sailing and went to start and the warning lights/horn come on when i push the button the warning lights dim but motor doesn't crank. pushed several more times same thing. Thought maybe not enough juice so selected all on my battery selector same result. I kept pushing the button and finally it cranked and fired right up. I would think if it was a battery issue it would crank slowly and then stop. if it was the switch it wouldn't dim the warning lights indicating an amp draw on the system. Makes me think the starter might be the problem but really not sure perhaps I am way off on my assumptions any more advise would be great.
I had a similar problem. In my case the issue was in the starter. Over time there were bad spots on the commutator. Each start effort while not enough to spin it was enough to get it to move a few tenths of an inch. Eventually I would get to avoid spot and it would spin and the engine fire.
Something that is missing from the link to my fix is that I also had the starter rebuilt. Everything was changed including installing heavier wire wjere possible. But some wires were in a harness. There were at least eight connections between the battery source and the solenoid on my 2QM20. With the "relay" you have a direct 12V through one heavy wire to the solenoid.
The problem is the starter circuit to the solenoid. Clearly the starter is working fine once it gets juice from the solenoid. The solenoid is working fine once it gets enough juice from the start circuit. The wires from the start button to the solenoid and all the connections in between are the problem.
It is a common problem which sometimes can be traced to faulty wiring, corroded connectors and faulty push button or key switch contacts. Since your buzzer is going off loud and clear I would for the moment exclude the key switch. Inspect the wiring and connectionsleading to and from the push button switch. If the connections look good If it were me I would go ahead and replace the push button switch. As long as when you push the button you do not hear the solenoid click I would not worry about it being a starter issue.
Jump out
Jump out the starter with screw driver or a remote starter switch and than do what Ed S suggested,many owners have done it with very good long lasting results.
Nick
Jump out the starter with screw driver or a remote starter switch and than do what Ed S suggested,many owners have done it with very good long lasting results.
Nick
I forgot to mention it but Nick(seadaddler) did. The screwdriver was the emergency starter. Worked first time everytime. One of those pushbutton jumper switches is better, you don't get that scary spark and burn marks on your screwdriver.
While this common problem may seem to be caused by the solenoid or starter, the real culprit is increased impedence in the wiring harness as boats age. Also, Yanmar just included too many connections in the harness, each of which decreases the amps finally reaching the solenoid. I, too, have written a piece on how to remedy this problem by adding a 12vdc relay to the solenoid. Take a look at Boat Info>Sailboat Knowledgebase>Engines>Yanmar>Starting Issues.
Thanks again to Ed, and thanks to Warren for writing so many helpful instructions on the Sailboat Knowledgebase site.
The high current relay helps alot, but it isn't totally foolproof. When I had that installed on my Hunter 30 '76, I had additional incidents of no starter turning after more than a year. After many more iterations I've come to believe the connections from starter to block, block to neg cable and neg cable to neg battery post are highly important, and I think the starters Yanmar sells aren't very good. That's not to say giving a good high current connection to the solenoid hot doesn't usually solve the issue, it's just I think that might be treating the symptom a little and bludgeoning the problem into submission.
Consider that the solenoid coil almost always pulls in (the click), it's the starter that doesn't spin. And as everyone has experienced it generally does eventually start after multiple tries. The current required to pull in that little solenoid coil is orders of magnitude smaller than whats required to spin the starter when engaged to the motor's flywheel. You'll find that when you take one of these starters off and bring it to an auto electric shop, it will work perfectly on the bench over and over, without any load on the pinion gear. Another clue is the problem seems to occur when the engine has been recently run more often than when it's been laying idle for days to me. This may be because the rings and cylinder walls are already wet with lube oil and compression develops immediately when the piston sees force, making the motor harder to turnover- that's just pure speculation though
When the solenoid pulls in, and the big contacts make that energize the starter motor, if the starter motor's field isn't quite powerful enough to get the to starter spinning (at full speed) very quickly, the starter motor's winding becomes a very large, very low resistance path to the engine block, which in turn reduces the potential across the solenoid coil if there is just the slightest resistance between the block and the neg battery terminal.
This very rarely happens in automobiles, but a buddy of mine said it happened frequently on a Chevy Suburban he owned. He said he got a super heavy duty after market starter and never had the problem again.
Using the same OEM starters, I think we are faced with doing all we can to keep the power and ground connections perfect and maybe the high current relay mod. Knocking the side of the starter with a hammer as a last resort has never failed me. I'm serious.
Consider that the solenoid coil almost always pulls in (the click), it's the starter that doesn't spin. And as everyone has experienced it generally does eventually start after multiple tries. The current required to pull in that little solenoid coil is orders of magnitude smaller than whats required to spin the starter when engaged to the motor's flywheel. You'll find that when you take one of these starters off and bring it to an auto electric shop, it will work perfectly on the bench over and over, without any load on the pinion gear. Another clue is the problem seems to occur when the engine has been recently run more often than when it's been laying idle for days to me. This may be because the rings and cylinder walls are already wet with lube oil and compression develops immediately when the piston sees force, making the motor harder to turnover- that's just pure speculation though
When the solenoid pulls in, and the big contacts make that energize the starter motor, if the starter motor's field isn't quite powerful enough to get the to starter spinning (at full speed) very quickly, the starter motor's winding becomes a very large, very low resistance path to the engine block, which in turn reduces the potential across the solenoid coil if there is just the slightest resistance between the block and the neg battery terminal.
This very rarely happens in automobiles, but a buddy of mine said it happened frequently on a Chevy Suburban he owned. He said he got a super heavy duty after market starter and never had the problem again.
Using the same OEM starters, I think we are faced with doing all we can to keep the power and ground connections perfect and maybe the high current relay mod. Knocking the side of the starter with a hammer as a last resort has never failed me. I'm serious.
Here is Ed's solution (thank you again). I ran a no.8 marine grade wire from the starte button to my solenoid. I left the old bundle in place just in case. The number of shunts is the culprit. Not your contacts, not your ground most likely but not always. I got the solenoid from a marine parts dealer but I suppose you could use autozone. The pics are pretty self explanatory.
It starts, starts. I have started the motor after 8 hours of sailiing ON my house bank! This is your fix. Under 80 bucks easy.
Hope this helps
It starts, starts. I have started the motor after 8 hours of sailiing ON my house bank! This is your fix. Under 80 bucks easy.
Hope this helps
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A good feeling knowing the engine will always start when you need it. From 2000 until I installed the new 3YM30 in 2005 the old 2QM20 never failed to start the first time. Year 1999 was a crapshoot until I installed that solenoid.
"The number of shunts is the culprit"
I don't understand. On your boat are there other parallel loads drawing through a common light gage upstream conductor to the one/s that go from the positive batt terminal to the key/starter switch? I don't remember how my boat was originally wired but I have3 had a dedicated 14 gage wire going from the positive 12v heavy gage lug on the engine (hot side of starter solenoid contact) to the key switch. There are no parallel paths. I still experienced the issue and like I said had limited success with the high current relay mod.
I don't understand. On your boat are there other parallel loads drawing through a common light gage upstream conductor to the one/s that go from the positive batt terminal to the key/starter switch? I don't remember how my boat was originally wired but I have3 had a dedicated 14 gage wire going from the positive 12v heavy gage lug on the engine (hot side of starter solenoid contact) to the key switch. There are no parallel paths. I still experienced the issue and like I said had limited success with the high current relay mod.
From the push botton switch at the starter, Hunter ran 12 to14 guage wires all the way to the solenoid on the starter. K that IMHO is junk. This is simplified by connecting a voltmeter for the proof. So you are left with a problem and a solution. Look under the hood of your car and see the guage of the wire, if you have a classic without coil packs. Its in the pudding.
So you have to find something similar. I did that. Ed's solution may not be the best, but it is the most convenient and certainly affordable for the average boater.
Each time you go through a shunt, you get a voltage drop. Period dot.
Im an aero engineer not electrical.. so I accept all "you dont know what your talking about" jibes.
Cheers
So you have to find something similar. I did that. Ed's solution may not be the best, but it is the most convenient and certainly affordable for the average boater.
Each time you go through a shunt, you get a voltage drop. Period dot.
Im an aero engineer not electrical.. so I accept all "you dont know what your talking about" jibes.
Cheers
Hey J Hunter
The actual process that goes on inside the solenoid is two fold, engage the pinion gear into the flywheel gear and then complete the high current connection to the starter motor. The Yanmar (and most others) have "duel rate springs" for this to disengage the solenoid after you turn the power off. Engaging the gears is the easy part and that is the click you hear. Completing the circuit has a much higher rate spring and that is where the hang up is. There simply is not enough current (too much resistance in all those connections) to pull the solenoid fully shut.
While what you say is absolutely true, the ground side of the circuit is just as important and an often overlooked part of trouble shooting the real culprit here is the wiring harness and it's total resistance.
The actual process that goes on inside the solenoid is two fold, engage the pinion gear into the flywheel gear and then complete the high current connection to the starter motor. The Yanmar (and most others) have "duel rate springs" for this to disengage the solenoid after you turn the power off. Engaging the gears is the easy part and that is the click you hear. Completing the circuit has a much higher rate spring and that is where the hang up is. There simply is not enough current (too much resistance in all those connections) to pull the solenoid fully shut.
While what you say is absolutely true, the ground side of the circuit is just as important and an often overlooked part of trouble shooting the real culprit here is the wiring harness and it's total resistance.
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