Electrical/Battery Question

Stu Jackson · Jan 11, 2009

They're both wet cell batteries

so charging them and wiring them together isn't an issue.

Your challenges are to figure out a way to make coffee without using electricity -- like Melita filters into a Thermos on your alcohol stove.

There are many ways to do what you want to do, all of which require a larger stronger charging system than what you have on board.

"Your first mission" is to do an energy budget, compare what you've taken out with what you need to put back in.

A search on that phrase on this board would help you in the first steps on that process.

sailingdog · Jan 11, 2009

I wouldn't use an electric coffee maker on a small sailboat—they draw far too much power to be reasonable.

As stated, if the two batteries are both wet-cells, then they can be charged together without much risk. However, if they are different designs—one starting and one deep-cycle, they shouldn't be used together.

jibes138 · Jan 11, 2009

Coffee on board

The best coffee is percolated coffee. So get yourself a percolator that can be used on the stove. They make a really small one or two cup unit, might be called an espresso maker, that works great. They come in two sizes. Base is kind of hex shaped and the whole unit is made out of aluminum. I think they are made in Italy. I'll do a search and see if i can find a source. Take the electric unit home.

Benny · Jan 11, 2009

Adding an alternator to the engine will not solve your problem as their output is very smalll. You should first ascertain the condition of the batteries; a starting battery that has been used for deep discharge cycles may have lost its ability to fully charge. The other one being used to power a trolling motor on a previous boat may be a little tired too. If you intend to use both batteries as house batteries I would replace that starter battery with a deep cycle one. Remember that two batteries connected in parallel to each other will only charge to the capacity of the weaker one. It also helps if the batteries are close to each other to minimize voltage drop. Electric coffee makers are power hogs. Those 12V ones do a very poor job as they do not heat the water enough. Getting low batteries and bad coffe is a double whammy. Get a stove top percolator or tea pot for heating water which you can manually pour through the grinds on a filter holder. Installing a 1,2, Both, Off switch is not a bad idea as it will give you flexibility in choosing your power source plus the ability to completely shut off power. A large battery bank is more efficient than two smaller ones but there are instances when you will want to separate the batteries. A power survey calculating your average daily usage in Amps will give you an idea for the size of the battery banks needed. For example if you use an average of 50 amps in a 24 hour period and you usually stay out for 48 hours that means that you will consume 100 amps before you can recharge. As deep cycle batteries should not be discharged for more than 50% of its capacity to preserve battery life it means that at a minimum you need a battery bank with 200 amps of capacity. A 22.5 W solar panel would probably replace an average of 6-8 amps a day that is if it is sunny on those two days that you go out. Recharging batteries takes time as the acceptance rate drops as they approach full. Recharging times of 5-6 hours are common. A battery charged and maintained at 100% of capacity will last longer than one frequently undercharged. Power conservation is usually cheaper than adding storage capacity. When doing your power survey and calculating battery storage needs always look for ways to reduce consumption. Just a few pointers of the top of my head.

jibes138 · Jan 11, 2009

stove top espresso maker

here it is. I found it on the net for about 12 bucks. This is the three cup but they make up to a 12 cup. Now remember espresso is extremely potent so I just use less coffee in the basket and call it coffee or for a real jolt just drink the whole pot in a single normal sized coffee cup. These things work GREAT.

Rhiannon · Jan 11, 2009

Yeah, I'd have to agree that you need to have a non electric method of coffee making. I prefer a french press, you have to be careful on a boat because they are glass, but they deliver a fine coffee experience and "the Admiral" may even find that it tastes better than auto-drip. -

sailingdog · Jan 12, 2009

nissan also makes a very nice stainless steel coffee press that is insulated IIRC.

Roger Long · Jan 12, 2009

I'll second everyone who said "French Press" although I did go back to filters because of the clean up. Everything tastes better on a boat anyway. I keep the press for special occasions.

For the best and most appropriate coffee for a boat, go to:

http://www.ellagocoffee.com/

Joe and Terry made an extensive search for the the best and most sustainable and fair trade coffee to be found in Central America and then set out to import it under sail in their 40 foot ketch. A combination of events resulted in the loss of the boat on her first voyage a year ago. However, they have set up a company to continue importing the coffee and are now roasting their own beans. The goal is to eventually build another vessel for sail transport of coffee and I'm already doing some preliminary sketching on the design.

It's amazing to drink coffee like this the first time. It's like you never had coffee before. You can support this great effort and someday follow the design and building process of the boat by drinking the best coffee you'll get anywhere.

kloudie1 · Jan 12, 2009

Ohh yeah.. French drip or French press coffee is the best.. Brew then put in a Thermos type carafe so it will stay hot for a while.. The percolator type brewers of necessity have to boil some of the coffee to make it perk.. Boiling the coffee will make it more bitter and cost ya some of the flavor..

Batteries.. the different alloying in the plates of the deep cycle and the starting battery make them have slightly different voltage.. If ya tie them together, one will drain into the other…. Not an issue if ya have a switch that separates them. Will sort of work but is a non-optimal use of the batts..

Bill Roosa · Jan 12, 2009

Upgrading the elecrical system

You certainly are stretching the batteries anytime you try to move heat around with them. Coffee pots, air conditioners, and refrigerators all devastate your energy budget while cruising. So much so that you will not find many cruisers who use air conditioning at all, will use gas to make coffee and will go to extremes to get an efficient refrigerator system.

If you are serious about cruising then you have a hard decision to make. There is a minimum amount of energy that is required to get a boat to and from the cruising grounds and provide the basic safety and convenience(nav and anchor lights, instruments, cabin lights, etc) services. These are not out of reach with your current storage system provided you are just doing the weekend cruise. If you go much beyond that time frame you run into electrical storage ranges that are prohibitive and so have to start producing while away from the dock. If you want some of the nicer conveniences, then you have to pay the price. This comes in several flavors:
Bigger battery storage capability - Heavy and you need the space
Bigger electrical production capability - a belt driven alternator is the most cost effective but you need one and you have to run the engine to recharge. Solar and wind are alternatives but have issues since you can't make the sun shine or the wind blow when you need it. Solar and wind are more expensive and again you need the space to put the panels or generator.
Install a gas stove/oven - Space is the big issue here. Also propane has some safety issues which MUST be addressed. It also does not answer all the mail on conveniences you might want. It is the most economical (space and cost) way of heating water and food though.

An energy budget is the first thing so you can make informed decisions. I did this with an excel spread sheet which I have made available to anybody that wants it. It does let you "what if" your situation without worrying about all the math. I provide instructions and support (free) for suggestions on how to make it better. Just email me for a copy. william-roosa@us.army.mil

moehorenfeldt · Jan 12, 2009

Get a Melitta filter and adapter. The you just boil water, any way you can, and pour the boiling water into the Melitta cone with the filter and coffee, and wait for it to stop dripping, into an appropriate container. A Vacuum bottle would be perfect. EASY!
Moe

moparv104x4 · Jan 12, 2009

When we had our Catalina 22 we did a lot of our cooking and made coffee on a 1 burner butane stove. We still have it on our B30 Islander as a back up and it can be used on shore also.

sailingdog · Jan 12, 2009

IIRC, butane is actually a bit less safe than propane. Both are heavier than air, but butane has flammability limits in air (STP conditions) : 1.5-8.5 vol%, where propane has flammability limits in air (STP conditions) : 2.2-9.5 vol%. That means it requires more almost 50% more propane to create an explosive atmosphere aboard a boat than butane.

Properly installed, a propane tank system with a propane locker that is gas-tight and vents overboard is going to be far safer than using the smaller one-pound propane or butane canisters or alcohol-fueled stoves aboard the boat. Add a propane fume detector and proper bilge blower setup and you'll be good to go.

sinnettc said:
Is butane safer than propane? If butane is safer than alcohol and propane then I'll buy a little single burner stove for the Admiral's coffee. Seems like that would be more efficient than using a gas bbq. In either case the cabin top on the Capri is so low (sitting headroom only) that I doubt we'll ever use a stove inside - I'll just heat it up in the cockpit.

themacway · Jan 13, 2009

sailingdog said:
I wouldn't use an electric coffee maker on a small sailboat—they draw far too much power to be reasonable.

As stated, if the two batteries are both wet-cells, then they can be charged together without much risk. However, if they are different designs—one starting and one deep-cycle, they shouldn't be used together.

exactly what he said. it applies to a motorhome as well, and believe you me, we have had lots and lots of 'expensive' experience with those... lol

as far as propane, butane, etc. goes, there is no real energy substitute per unit measure for the hydrocarbon molecule (including hydrogen, since it's so expensive to extract) and excepting nuclear since we don't want 'day-glow' boating, so be careful, but don't be shy, about cooking with gas. since we like tea, we just make sun tea, but since we love iced tea (not being from new england) down here in Texas, we'd need an ice machine. hence, we don't cruise past our ice chest limit. HA!

something that's becoming more fashionable in diesel pushers these days is the diesel cooktop (and heaters), as it just sips fuel. it doesn't smell either and they have a good catalytic process so venting them should not be a problem, certainly no more than propane (or butane). i wonder if anybody out there with a diesel inboard in their sailboat has thought about using one of those? they may be too big for a trailer-sailor, but still...

we just now are replacing our oem origo alcohol single burner for a new single burner coleman gas unit for $7. it actually cost more to ship it. we'll see how it works, but i think we'll be happy since we've got a real grill hung off the stern rail. i used to race cars and i saw a guy on fire once at a race track. actually, we didn't see the fire at all, just saw him dancing around and flopping on the ground from across the track. that scared me, so i don't do alcohol stoves well. i'm not real sure about the whole alcohol thing, except in margaritas or a good Texas Tea, and that i've got some experience with.

jack b

in midland, tx usa

Ross · Jan 13, 2009

This is a much better method for heating water ,making coffee, and cooking food than trying to go electric.

http://www.grillshowroom.com/Stainless-Steel-Two-Burner-Propane-Stove.htm