Another supplier to look at is Electric Paddle out of North Bend WA. I think they are also in Pt. townsend Wa
Electric harbors are coming.
- Thread starter TomY
- Start date
I'm a big fan of electric. I like how it sounds, smells, feels and the simplicity of an electric motor vs a Wankle engine, especially with the anti-emissions electronics on it. The torque curve beats the pants off gasoline.
I'm encouraged by the direction towards electronic transportation, but, like most here, frustrated by the slow and costly infancy. However, the expense and inconvenience is worth it just to push the progress forward to a better future.
Some of the arguements, or should I say 'criticisms', against it seem valid while others seem like rationalizations, to me.
One of the things I like best about electric motorized transportation is the self-sufficiency our current infrastructure already has built into it. Sure the range on an electric car is half that of a gasoline powered car, but the vast majority of driving by car owners is local and under 100 miles a day. If such range was limited on a gas engine, you'ld be pulling into a gas station every day, but with electric, you don't need to spend any more time refueling your car than it takes to plug it in in your driveway at night.
I would think, one day, there will be EMF transmitters installed along every major roadway such that you never have to think about stopping to refuel. What a blow to the economy that would mean to companies like Coca Cola, Nabisco, Little Debbie's...
For cruising sailors, reclamation generation under sail is an easy tech to install. Just as with gasoline, if you want more range, install a bigger fuel tank (of course cost and weight are limiting factors, but that is also true in both cases by a degrees). However, if you are crossing the Atlantic, for example, and you run out of fuel, electric or gas, a solar panel will eventually replenish your batteries, where I don't know of the existence of a small scale portable crude oil drill and fuel refinement plant you can carry aboard to replenish your empty diesel tanks.
As far as the comparative carbon footprint goes, this is an oil refinery, not an electric power plant
It is separate and distinct from a power plant. It exists, just to produce refined fossil fuels. The power plant is already running your hot tub, HVAC, lights, T.V. and computer, at home.
I have been imagining a future of battery swapping stations across the country where electric cars, instead of recharging, simply pull up to a kiosk that grabs the spent battery, located behind the bumper of your car, pulls it out and onto a carousel charging station, then inserts a newly charged battery in its place. Your bumper back in place, you're on your way in less time than it takes to fill up a ten gallon gas tank. But, as I'm typing, I like the power transmitter idea better. No battery required. Maybe such a thing could be designed for local transmission from mother ship to dink when in remote locations.
With a big enough antenna, you can already pull enough free EMF out of the air to power your house. Of course, an antenna that big is impractical. Maybe a Tesla coil would do it more efficiently.
-Will (Dragonfly)
I'm encouraged by the direction towards electronic transportation, but, like most here, frustrated by the slow and costly infancy. However, the expense and inconvenience is worth it just to push the progress forward to a better future.
Some of the arguements, or should I say 'criticisms', against it seem valid while others seem like rationalizations, to me.
One of the things I like best about electric motorized transportation is the self-sufficiency our current infrastructure already has built into it. Sure the range on an electric car is half that of a gasoline powered car, but the vast majority of driving by car owners is local and under 100 miles a day. If such range was limited on a gas engine, you'ld be pulling into a gas station every day, but with electric, you don't need to spend any more time refueling your car than it takes to plug it in in your driveway at night.
I would think, one day, there will be EMF transmitters installed along every major roadway such that you never have to think about stopping to refuel. What a blow to the economy that would mean to companies like Coca Cola, Nabisco, Little Debbie's...
For cruising sailors, reclamation generation under sail is an easy tech to install. Just as with gasoline, if you want more range, install a bigger fuel tank (of course cost and weight are limiting factors, but that is also true in both cases by a degrees). However, if you are crossing the Atlantic, for example, and you run out of fuel, electric or gas, a solar panel will eventually replenish your batteries, where I don't know of the existence of a small scale portable crude oil drill and fuel refinement plant you can carry aboard to replenish your empty diesel tanks.
As far as the comparative carbon footprint goes, this is an oil refinery, not an electric power plant
It is separate and distinct from a power plant. It exists, just to produce refined fossil fuels. The power plant is already running your hot tub, HVAC, lights, T.V. and computer, at home.
I have been imagining a future of battery swapping stations across the country where electric cars, instead of recharging, simply pull up to a kiosk that grabs the spent battery, located behind the bumper of your car, pulls it out and onto a carousel charging station, then inserts a newly charged battery in its place. Your bumper back in place, you're on your way in less time than it takes to fill up a ten gallon gas tank. But, as I'm typing, I like the power transmitter idea better. No battery required. Maybe such a thing could be designed for local transmission from mother ship to dink when in remote locations.
With a big enough antenna, you can already pull enough free EMF out of the air to power your house. Of course, an antenna that big is impractical. Maybe a Tesla coil would do it more efficiently.
-Will (Dragonfly)
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Excuse me? HAve you ever heard of a gas gauge, or 'pick up the tank, shake it, look inside?'
I look forward to hearing how it works out for you, Larry. Like electric cars, we KNOW they aren't for everybody, and we know WHY.I sprung for the Torqeedo 1100 today. We were anchored this weekend and I had some boat projects, and I was encouraging my wife to take the dinghy out to get off the boat on her own. She said the reason she won’t go alone is that she’s afraid she won’t be able to start the Suzuki DF 2.5, or that she might injure herself pulling the recoil start (it kicks back on the cord quite often and the hard jerk can hurt).
We had discussed the Torqeedo the day before and I asked her if she’d use one of those. The answer was that she thinks she’d like it. Decision made, the justification was clear, and imho the expense is less important than having a happier wife.
Also, I doubled the solar power on my boat this year so we now have 370 watts. Generally that means on a sunny day we’re fully charged by around 13:00. The rest of the day is surplus capacity.
Now I need to try it and figure out a way to lock it. I have some ideas using cable and nicropress fittings. Will post results if I come up with a good solution.
More interesting is hearing from people that have chosen to go electric dinghy propulsion. I saw many Torqueedo's on the coast this season.
I can't help on the theft except to say I see a few left untended on dinghy docks with the battery removed (presumably home charging). That's a pretty big deterrent as it's such an expensive item but I realize that won't work for everyone/locations.
I have clients with a newly purchased lake house. They have no experience with boats or motors and inherited an old outboard with a boat. I know the people and know the outboard is a disaster waiting to happen with them.
I just mentioned a Torqueedo. They had no idea. Sure enough they checked it out online and bought one. It will make perfect sense for them, plug in to charge like so many of their 'devices' today. Plus everybody on the tiny pond would thank me if they knew I'd advised it.
Submarines have been electric powered by battery banks since WWII.
Their diesel engines were more for recharging than as propulsion. I understand they could charge them up from shore power in minutes because of the voltage differential they designed into the system. Or, so I've heard.
-Will (Dragonfly)
No one mentioned Elco.
Electric Outboards
Here's the thing, for me. Batteries are getting better all the time, and it seems to be accelerating, but there's still something mysteriously unreliable about them. Unless I'm closely monitoring them, and know their entire history, I don't trust them. The drop dead unexpectedly, or so it seems to me. And, if they are indeed no longer serviceable, you have a bigger problem than no 'fuel,' you have to find replacement batteries. Perhaps out on a cruise, far away from home. When they are working, 'metering' is suspect. I've had phones with LiIon batts go from 35% to 0% quickly and unexpectedly.
With gas, you know how much you have. This is determined very easily. When it's gone, it's easily and quickly replenished, almost anywhere. You can refill your tank in about 60 seconds, and it then has as much energy in it as when the tank was new. If the fuel goes bad, it's easily and quickly and inexpensively replaced, almost anywhere.
Gas is much, much lighter and more compact per unit energy than battery. Six gallons of gas is about 200kWh. A luxury model Tesla has about 60–100kWh. Your $700 Torqeedo battery has 1/2 kWh. So, six gallons of gas is about 400 times the energy of one new, fully charged Torqeedo battery.
So far, this season, accessing my boat on a mooring with my RIB and 15HP 2-stroke outboard, plus three weeks of cruising, I've bought 8 gallons of gas. I started the season with maybe 3 gallons? It's more than half full right now. And, I can go very slowly, or I can go very fast, planing with two aboard.
I like electric, but it's just not there yet, and the infrastructure to charge batts isn't there, either.
Electric Outboards
Here's the thing, for me. Batteries are getting better all the time, and it seems to be accelerating, but there's still something mysteriously unreliable about them. Unless I'm closely monitoring them, and know their entire history, I don't trust them. The drop dead unexpectedly, or so it seems to me. And, if they are indeed no longer serviceable, you have a bigger problem than no 'fuel,' you have to find replacement batteries. Perhaps out on a cruise, far away from home. When they are working, 'metering' is suspect. I've had phones with LiIon batts go from 35% to 0% quickly and unexpectedly.
With gas, you know how much you have. This is determined very easily. When it's gone, it's easily and quickly replenished, almost anywhere. You can refill your tank in about 60 seconds, and it then has as much energy in it as when the tank was new. If the fuel goes bad, it's easily and quickly and inexpensively replaced, almost anywhere.
Gas is much, much lighter and more compact per unit energy than battery. Six gallons of gas is about 200kWh. A luxury model Tesla has about 60–100kWh. Your $700 Torqeedo battery has 1/2 kWh. So, six gallons of gas is about 400 times the energy of one new, fully charged Torqeedo battery.
So far, this season, accessing my boat on a mooring with my RIB and 15HP 2-stroke outboard, plus three weeks of cruising, I've bought 8 gallons of gas. I started the season with maybe 3 gallons? It's more than half full right now. And, I can go very slowly, or I can go very fast, planing with two aboard.
I like electric, but it's just not there yet, and the infrastructure to charge batts isn't there, either.
Electric has its place, but it will never be the end all. When you are on a confined lake, it makes sense, or for a dingy with limited range requirement. But it will never completely replace conventional fuel. The energy density is too small. No you can not use a non-contact charging system. The transfer of energy is way too inefficient. Even for cars, their use is limited. You can not have a Tesla be the only car you own. It is a fantasy that you can take a Tesla on a trip. There will always be rural areas where quick charging doesn't exist, and the use requirement does not allow for the limited range. For instance, I could not travel to my inlaws. They are only 200 miles away, but as soon as we get there, we have errands to run. An overnight charge is not enough to put the full range back into the battery, so I would need a full 24 hours of not driving the car. That is just not practical. The second issue is that I can't afford to just have a car that is limited to a daily driver. If electric cars were 10 grand, OK, but I can't have a 60,000 dollar car that can't do everything. Tesla is neet, but if it can't be my only car, then it can't be my car.
The only real alternative will be fuel cells, where fuel is converted directly to electricity. They will have the range, and the recovery needed to be practical. Otherwise electric is too limited.
The only real alternative will be fuel cells, where fuel is converted directly to electricity. They will have the range, and the recovery needed to be practical. Otherwise electric is too limited.
Will - not quite accurate. Modern, long range submarines are nuclear powered with steam turbines providing the propulsion. They have a large battery bank to power emergency propulsion and essential electrical loads but it can only go a very short time if called upon for propulsion in an emergency (ask me how I know
).There are a few Diesel-Electric subs (note they still don't call them Battery Subs) made by some countries mostly for "coastal defense." For these it is true that the propulsion is coming from an electric motor run from the batteries but it is still primarily a diesel driven power system much like a diesel-electric locomotive but with an extra large battery bank for use when submerged. Diesel-electric submarines are very quiet when on battery power (very very quiet), but have limited range and time submerged and must come to the surface (or put up a snorkel mast) periodically to charge the batteries and when doing so can be detected (not good for a sub) from a long distance if running the diesel.
Charging from shore power from a fully discharged state is still a relatively slow process and I can't imagine a useful submarine except for a "Disney Land Tour boat" that would rely on charging from shore power since it could only go far enough to be able to return to the shore and recharge and that range would be practically useless for a real sub
Diesel-electric subs were in use in WWI. That's "One." Subs using internal combustion engines to propel then and charge batteries for underwater electric propulsion were available as early as 1900, the US taking delivery of its first commissioned sub in that year, the Holland VI.
Early diesel electrics used the same diesel engine or engines to both propel the boat on the surface and charge batteries. About the middle of WWII, if I recall correctly, the US made the transition to full 'hybrid' operation, using the electric motors to propel the boat always, and diesels for generation only.
Where are you getting this history? It's incorrect. Diesel-electrics were the only subs used in WWI and WWII, and they roamed the world.
My cousin made the 450 mile trip from Anniston AL to my house in AR on a single tank of gas in her Prius--a hybrid powered by a gas generator that kept the battery charged--and she didn't "dog it along" ...."lead foot Sara" drives at least the speed limit on the freeway. When I realized that the twin gas engines in my boat burned about 15 gal/hr each at cruising rpms, while my 6.5kw gas generator burned about 1gal/hr under full load, that became the only type of electric vehicle--including boats--that makes any sense to me.
Vehicles that must be plugged into a charging source are not only inefficient and limited in range, but they don't reduce the owners' carbon footprints, they're only transferring it to the "grid." Not a big deal if they're only a tiny percentage of vehicles, but that becomes a huge problem if/when most of the cars in a large city are "plug-ins" 'cuz electric infrstructures aren't built to carry that much additional load.
My $.02 worth anyway...
--Peggie
Vehicles that must be plugged into a charging source are not only inefficient and limited in range, but they don't reduce the owners' carbon footprints, they're only transferring it to the "grid." Not a big deal if they're only a tiny percentage of vehicles, but that becomes a huge problem if/when most of the cars in a large city are "plug-ins" 'cuz electric infrstructures aren't built to carry that much additional load.
My $.02 worth anyway...
--Peggie
@Peggie Hall HeadMistress the question of whether the carbon footprint is reduced (or transferred) is certainly debatable. But in the case of dinghy motors where the recharge power comes from renewable sources (solar or wind) there are other benefits (and drawbacks) to using electric propulsion.
I just departed with my 3.5 hp outboard motor for a Torqeedo electric motor and 915 wH battery for $1700. We like not having to fill and carry a separate gasoline container. It light enough for my wife to handle the motor or require a motor davit and waterproof in the event the motor is immersed in water. The 915 wH battery offers us long range/run time and extended battery charging intervals. I remove and store the battery and control head in a lazarette (without these the motor is not an attractive theft risk) and secure the remaining motor to the stern rail outboard mount with a cable lock and cover it to mitigate theft risk.
But for the initial price tag, I sure would consider it if they made a pickup truck/SUV.
-Will (Dragonfly)
I had to check the above (not the 15 gal/hr use - wow).. but that electric vehicles dont reduce the carbon footprint.
The link below says the electric and hybrids produce on the order of 1/2 the total emissions compared to gas (taking into account the source of electricity). However, for my sailboat trailerable application, I use at least a factor of 10 times more gas per year just trailering the boat compared to what I use on the water.
Alternative Fuels Data Center: Emissions from Electric Vehicles
afdc.energy.gov
True. My reasons to promote electric outboards are selfish
ollution in my space. Noise pollution is real problem (don’t get me started on car alarms!).Any dinghy dock with a lot of outboards often sits in a sheen of oil.
We tied up at a boat club in Brooklin me. They don’t allow you to leave a gas outboard on a dinghy tied their docks.
I will try a new 1100 on a new short fat RIB this week.