Music, like sailing, is at the same time intensely selfish and something that can be shared. Whether performing or listening (captain/crew or passenger?), the experience can be transporting. Still, there is something inherently and intensely isolating about the peak quality of such experiences.
Egos?
- Thread starter T37 Phil
- Start date
T37 Phil, There are many endeavors that meet that criteria. Almost all hobbies are personally gratifying and at the same time "can " be very sharing. I love to cook, especially for others. I make fine wood work pieces as gifts. Nancy does not enjoy sailing but loves that places where we anchor and loves the isolation from the world that we get while on the boat. Nancy enjoys crocheting so during her recovery from cancer therapy she made several dozen 3x4 foot afghans for lap robes for the local nursing home. The crocheting was enjoyable for her and for many others who benefited from her self indulgence.
I hired a couple this fall to work a job I was doing. They so much enjoyed the experience that they would have cheerfully worked at half the rate that I paid. The work allowed them to be isolated from the noise and confusion of the world and was not physically hard work. Also it gave them an opportunity to learn a new aspect of building repair. For them getting paid to learn a new skill is the best way for them to spend time. Is that self indulgence ? Perhaps. On the other hand we don't have to suffer to be generous.
I hired a couple this fall to work a job I was doing. They so much enjoyed the experience that they would have cheerfully worked at half the rate that I paid. The work allowed them to be isolated from the noise and confusion of the world and was not physically hard work. Also it gave them an opportunity to learn a new aspect of building repair. For them getting paid to learn a new skill is the best way for them to spend time. Is that self indulgence ? Perhaps. On the other hand we don't have to suffer to be generous.
Ross - I agree that many activities fit here. There is something more. I am referring not to sharing the product of an experience, food, art, afghans, musical recordings, but rather to sharing the experience itself. You can solo sail, or you can sail with a group, as captain/crew or passenger. But however you experience a particular sail, even other people sitting right next to you will not have the same experience. They might enjoy it or not, but it will be an experience different from your own.
Music is like that too. We can listen to the same recording, or sing or play in the same group or sit in the same concert hall, but our experience of each of those will not be the same as the person sitting next to us. It seems trivial to acknowledge that. It's something else when the experience is so intense that you feel a desire to share, a need to share, not an experience of the same event, but your very personal experience, your perceptions and feelings, your inner state.
The affect is one of isolation.
On a more sober note, one doesn't need to read too far into the War Room to see that ideas can have the same effect. There is a saying with many variations that goes something like, "ask ten people what they heard/saw/witnessed/etc and you'll get ten different opinions [of the facts]." I believe what lies beneath the frustrations in the War Room is a similar phenomenon. Each has their own version of truth. Each desires for that to be a shared truth. In that place, the inherent isolation in taking a position leads not only to lack of concordance, but to active rejection of ones deeply held treasures. Instead of the bittersweet of harmony in isolation, the pain of dissonance pushes in from all sides. And yet, the room is rarely empty.
Music is like that too. We can listen to the same recording, or sing or play in the same group or sit in the same concert hall, but our experience of each of those will not be the same as the person sitting next to us. It seems trivial to acknowledge that. It's something else when the experience is so intense that you feel a desire to share, a need to share, not an experience of the same event, but your very personal experience, your perceptions and feelings, your inner state.
The affect is one of isolation.
On a more sober note, one doesn't need to read too far into the War Room to see that ideas can have the same effect. There is a saying with many variations that goes something like, "ask ten people what they heard/saw/witnessed/etc and you'll get ten different opinions [of the facts]." I believe what lies beneath the frustrations in the War Room is a similar phenomenon. Each has their own version of truth. Each desires for that to be a shared truth. In that place, the inherent isolation in taking a position leads not only to lack of concordance, but to active rejection of ones deeply held treasures. Instead of the bittersweet of harmony in isolation, the pain of dissonance pushes in from all sides. And yet, the room is rarely empty.
Brian - no need for an ego, and yet, where would one be without it? I thought of renaming the thread to avoid the confusion, but in the end I didn't think I'd get a big response anyway. I like your quote.
T37 Phil, Memories and perceptions are always a mystery for me. If you parents are still alive ask them what they consider the most important discussion they had with you and see if you have any memory of that. Do the same with your kids. Ask your wife what she remember of your first date and see if you can even recall your first date. The list is endless. If you are a very good story teller you can paint a word picture for others that will convey your impressions of a solitary vayage.
I read a good book once by a man who lost his wife suddenly and tragically. He talked of his time with her being so connected, and the memories of her being so strong, so real, that it was as if a portion of his brain was given over to her continued existence. It's a beautiful story, and an entrancing image, but for me personally I couldn't see myself in the same place. Not sure if that's good or bad, but the thread of ego's and connections conjured this up for me.
BTW, the book is "I am a Strange Loop" by Douglas Hoefsteader. Highly recommended.
BTW, the book is "I am a Strange Loop" by Douglas Hoefsteader. Highly recommended.
T37Phil,
Wow! A thoughtful and introspective post or two that touch at the root of our human existence - alone, yet not alone in a world full of similar but individuals unlike us - the 'self' or even, if you will, the id/ego that BraineD alluded to. Very philosophical.
I too play a few musical instruments and have noticed a difference between playing and listening and even playing and listening to a recording later. Sometimes you may think that what you are playing sounds great but upon listening to when unburdened by your instrument you can hear your part with all its flaws showing. I suppose that if you are a really good musician then what you hear is what other people hear but I am pretty certain that this is not the case. Many people's eyes just glaze over with boredom at the mere mention of the word "Opera" and would prefer to hear about Rod Stewart or (fill in the blank). Every opera performer and listener walks away from each performance with a slightly different set of memories and perceptions (some sleep through them).
Regarding the War Room and the feeling of alienation you may be getting by all the pointed opinions stated there I suggest that you take a page from the sleeping opera goers book - sleep through them. I have avoided that jungle just because most of the people and opinions stated there do not have the time or inclination to think about the nuances of their heated replies to their fellows. My ego is strong and I do not have to compete with a bunch of people with bombastic opinions who want to force their ideas into my ears. I have heard their arguments and I am still not impressed and so I keep pretty clear of the pizzing matches that go on there. They all seem to need to mark their territory like dogs and the last one who scented it seems to be on top of the 'argument' or 'discussion'.
This has been going on all our lives since we were young. It is a bit unsettling although human to realize that nearly everyone but ourselves see the same thing in different ways then we do. This is the main reason I do not like participating in political, moral or religious 'discussions' with most sailors that I might otherwise have grounds for bonding with. You may find that people whose non-sailing opinions you seem to agree with can drive you crazy on a boat after several days whereas someone who is not so like minded might make a better ship mate in the long term. This is a supposition more then a statement of fact. I would never take a person of religious orthodoxy out on a sailboat for a long time and this has nothing to do with the old superstition that priests and reverends were bad luck on a voyage.
Ross,
As usual, you are a gentleman's man on this forum and put forth your best showing of the love and devotion you have for Nancy. Even if we differ in our views on some things (and from the previous discussions I am pretty sure we will disagree on something, even if it is a recipe) I still hold you in high esteem and would like to meet up with (and Nancy) one day.
This has so far been a pretty unusual thread for sailnet or SBO and my hat is off to all of you.
Wow! A thoughtful and introspective post or two that touch at the root of our human existence - alone, yet not alone in a world full of similar but individuals unlike us - the 'self' or even, if you will, the id/ego that BraineD alluded to. Very philosophical.
I too play a few musical instruments and have noticed a difference between playing and listening and even playing and listening to a recording later. Sometimes you may think that what you are playing sounds great but upon listening to when unburdened by your instrument you can hear your part with all its flaws showing. I suppose that if you are a really good musician then what you hear is what other people hear but I am pretty certain that this is not the case. Many people's eyes just glaze over with boredom at the mere mention of the word "Opera" and would prefer to hear about Rod Stewart or (fill in the blank). Every opera performer and listener walks away from each performance with a slightly different set of memories and perceptions (some sleep through them).
Regarding the War Room and the feeling of alienation you may be getting by all the pointed opinions stated there I suggest that you take a page from the sleeping opera goers book - sleep through them. I have avoided that jungle just because most of the people and opinions stated there do not have the time or inclination to think about the nuances of their heated replies to their fellows. My ego is strong and I do not have to compete with a bunch of people with bombastic opinions who want to force their ideas into my ears. I have heard their arguments and I am still not impressed and so I keep pretty clear of the pizzing matches that go on there. They all seem to need to mark their territory like dogs and the last one who scented it seems to be on top of the 'argument' or 'discussion'.
This has been going on all our lives since we were young. It is a bit unsettling although human to realize that nearly everyone but ourselves see the same thing in different ways then we do. This is the main reason I do not like participating in political, moral or religious 'discussions' with most sailors that I might otherwise have grounds for bonding with. You may find that people whose non-sailing opinions you seem to agree with can drive you crazy on a boat after several days whereas someone who is not so like minded might make a better ship mate in the long term. This is a supposition more then a statement of fact. I would never take a person of religious orthodoxy out on a sailboat for a long time and this has nothing to do with the old superstition that priests and reverends were bad luck on a voyage.
Ross,
As usual, you are a gentleman's man on this forum and put forth your best showing of the love and devotion you have for Nancy. Even if we differ in our views on some things (and from the previous discussions I am pretty sure we will disagree on something, even if it is a recipe) I still hold you in high esteem and would like to meet up with (and Nancy) one day.
This has so far been a pretty unusual thread for sailnet or SBO and my hat is off to all of you.
CalebD, I prefer my green beans cooked for less than 10 minutes. And Green beans almondine should have the almonds lightly browned in butter and applied to the freshly cooked and drained beans and then salted. When I lived in the south they boiled green beans and almonds together for at least an hour and gave the dish the same name. They thought it was wonderful that way and thought mine were under cooked. Not wrong just different. I will taste any dish set before me, listen to any music that you listen to and read any literature that you read. My appreciation may very well differ from yours but I rarely find another persons choices to be offensive to me.
Ross,
Your green beans Almondine sound wonderful to me. I know that you are passionate about your cooking and most things that you do. My recipe for this dish would tend to be much more like yours then the dish you described made for you further south. I would not find the overcooked almonds and beans offensive and would gladly eat them (especially if I was hungry) with a smile on my face.
I am sure that do not I find other peoples points of view offensive to me as they are entitled to their views. I am certain that I do not need to immerse myself in other peoples points of view on the web when they are an unknown quantity. I know that I cannot convince anyone to my views (as I am way too long winded) and that I can't be enticed by most of the arguments out their to change my own thoughts. I prefer to watch and stay out of the fray in these 'discussions' rather then get drawn in and later regret saying (typing) anything stupid that I will later regret. (Here I go) I would rather withhold my opinions and remain friendly with most of the sailors here then give folks a reason to bear a grudge against me. I hope that our boat-centric personalities can overcome our other differences.
Your green beans Almondine sound wonderful to me. I know that you are passionate about your cooking and most things that you do. My recipe for this dish would tend to be much more like yours then the dish you described made for you further south. I would not find the overcooked almonds and beans offensive and would gladly eat them (especially if I was hungry) with a smile on my face.
I am sure that do not I find other peoples points of view offensive to me as they are entitled to their views. I am certain that I do not need to immerse myself in other peoples points of view on the web when they are an unknown quantity. I know that I cannot convince anyone to my views (as I am way too long winded) and that I can't be enticed by most of the arguments out their to change my own thoughts. I prefer to watch and stay out of the fray in these 'discussions' rather then get drawn in and later regret saying (typing) anything stupid that I will later regret. (Here I go) I would rather withhold my opinions and remain friendly with most of the sailors here then give folks a reason to bear a grudge against me. I hope that our boat-centric personalities can overcome our other differences.
CalebD - Performing and listening are different for me too, though each can be intense in its own way. Performing has the added factor of physical involvement, it's not passive (for the most part). It's particularly true when the breath is involved, singing or playing brass or wind instruments. Singing in particular, not necessarily a lead wailing out front, has an impact that is hard to describe to someone who hasn't experienced it. It's a motion and an emotion ... Anyway, I'm not sure if similar things happen with, say strings. I was never very good with stringed instruments (not that I'm very good with anything when you come right down to it). There's just some disconnect. I think the physicality of percussion appeals to a certain personality too. Even if you're doing what you love with people you love, it's never the same experience twice somehow. I understand the impression of how you sound while playing versus listening afterwards and I thought of hearing recordings of ones voice speaking. Most people are very surprised at the sound, since it's a different perceptual event if you're not actual producing the sound you are hearing. With instruments though, I think it has more to do with the emotion of being part of the music moving in time. When you stop and play it back, you're not focused on your instrument, your not focused on what's coming up in the music, you're not focused on adjusting to the musicians around you - I think you pick up the odd pieces that you missed during the live experience. Or perhaps you hit a particular phrase and everyone is in tune and the tempo is just right and the balance is dead on and everything momentarily is suspended in some kind of weird perfection - and that's what you feel and remember. But when you play it back it is surrounded by the everything else, which might of been just average or even not so good.
I don't know. I'm just streaming here. I wanted to respond and I haven't had the time to think more about it. Strong ego. Can there be strength without ego? That word seems to push buttons sometimes.
I don't know. I'm just streaming here. I wanted to respond and I haven't had the time to think more about it. Strong ego. Can there be strength without ego? That word seems to push buttons sometimes.
Hummility is key to ego. A strong ego is what drives me and what attarcts me to others. I cannot serve or follow folks without a strong ego. I believe in lead follow or get out of the way. Behind every great leader is a strong belief in his or herself but tempered with humility. I have three teenage sons, I co-lead our Jr. Fire Department, I am an assistant Boy Scout leader to name a few things. In all of these capacities i tell the boys you are not better or more deserving than anybody else on this plannet, we are all created equally; however we can chose to behave better than others. As I am growing older I value humility as a personality trait more and more. For myself I strive to be humble more and more.
As for music we just picked up Jewel's christmas cd with a version of the song "Life Uncommon" a great song that we have heard many times before. But I have to tell you it had a message I needed to hear Christmas day. It helped me to let go of something I "no longer lend yourself to that for which you wish to be free from" to quote Jewel. I played it again for my 20 year old son and he was completely unmoved. We are all at different places at different times, beside that we are all created and wired so complettely differently.
Great topic Phil, it has had me thinking about it since you posted it. Peace, health and prosperity this new year. Humbily Submitted
As for music we just picked up Jewel's christmas cd with a version of the song "Life Uncommon" a great song that we have heard many times before. But I have to tell you it had a message I needed to hear Christmas day. It helped me to let go of something I "no longer lend yourself to that for which you wish to be free from" to quote Jewel. I played it again for my 20 year old son and he was completely unmoved. We are all at different places at different times, beside that we are all created and wired so complettely differently.
Great topic Phil, it has had me thinking about it since you posted it. Peace, health and prosperity this new year. Humbily Submitted
Phil, I had a memorable science teacher. Before class
started one day he and I got on a discussion about ego. This was the mid 1960s and glimmers of the emerging Flower Power years and preceding Beat culture caused me to take the stand of rejecting ego. The teacher then said, "Look at Cassius Clay (that was before he called himself Mohammud Ali). He calls himself the greatest and by golly he is !" To this day I have mixed feelings aboiut ego.
About music. Sailing for me is largely a "getting away from it all" experience. Somehow music was an exception to my "cutting away from land" ritual and I would cruise for hours at a time hand on tiller and ear on boom box. Other times I would cruise for hours in silence. Oddly, the two situations were very similiar in feeling. On the onset I would have thought music to be a "less pure" addition to the experience, kind of like blending fine liquor with a mixer. Over the years I came to enjoy the two together, shamelessly. As for fine liquor, I'm a purest.
started one day he and I got on a discussion about ego. This was the mid 1960s and glimmers of the emerging Flower Power years and preceding Beat culture caused me to take the stand of rejecting ego. The teacher then said, "Look at Cassius Clay (that was before he called himself Mohammud Ali). He calls himself the greatest and by golly he is !" To this day I have mixed feelings aboiut ego.
About music. Sailing for me is largely a "getting away from it all" experience. Somehow music was an exception to my "cutting away from land" ritual and I would cruise for hours at a time hand on tiller and ear on boom box. Other times I would cruise for hours in silence. Oddly, the two situations were very similiar in feeling. On the onset I would have thought music to be a "less pure" addition to the experience, kind of like blending fine liquor with a mixer. Over the years I came to enjoy the two together, shamelessly. As for fine liquor, I'm a purest.
I'm not sure that I get the isolation aspect of this or the selfish aspect. As a musical performer, I don't do it to show off. It's is a form of communication where the performer is attempting to portray a musical experience for the audience. Music to me is the art form that deals in the 4th dimension (time.) and through this we portray interactions in different ways and on various levels. This isn't isolating and doesn't have to be egotistical.
Everything that we experience in life can be this way. My Sis-in-law asked over Christmas whey she hasn't been invited on our little sailboat. It basically boils down to the fact that she's hard to appreciate over a long time. She's sort of caustic and abrasive. She doesn't seem to know how to relax to the point that she's been told that her personality is actually making her dog very ill. After we explained that we don't do much of anything out on the water for about 6 hours, she finally came to the conclusion that she couldn't take the boredom for that long. Sometimes getting away from others can be good for our souls. Sometimes we need others. The thing about sailing is that from my perspective it's basically different each time. Sometimes it's exciting, sometimes it's a good time to rest. When I sail, I don't listen to music at all. We tried an MP3 player for one sail but it annoyed me because you see, I don't go sailing to get away from anything, it is a destination not an escape. I go to experience nature so listening to a machine isn't part of that experience.
Some of the times that I've played music with others, the experience is at best a sensual one (not sexual)- but don't confuse the two concepts please. Some may perform to "show off", some may enjoy the adrenaline rush and become an adrenaline junkie of sorts, some don't get any adrenaline rush. When I perform my music, I consider it a learning experience in a way. It is a test to see how well my practice has improved my performance.
The Marine quote is good for appealing to the machismo in the perspective recruits. "The Few,The Proud." Like an "Army of One." Become elite....or die trying.
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I have found that Ego is often percieved differently by the person that "owns" that ego from the people around him(or her). In sailing, the boat's skipper has to exude confidence or the crew/guests/passengers could panic even if the situation is not really critical. Of course it would help it the skipper actually DID know what he was doing. In all honesty though, the Admiral knows by now that if I look a little nervous we're really in deep Ca-ca. But what I consider a fun sail she classifies as maybe too much excitement. The self-satisfied feeling I have at the end of a simply pleasant sail could still qualify as ego in a job well done(nice for the Admiral; but some fun for me).
In the music world, however, egos are still a large driving and sometimes destructive force. Having been a working musician for nearly my whole life, I have encountered all types of musicians/singers/performers. Without any ego, I believe one would be too stricken with stage fright to do anything, but when someone says they have no ego the warning bells go off. These are the ones that are often convinced that their way is the only way and they are the 'best' at what they do and don't make mistakes. There's always someone out there that's better.. On those occasions that everyone is simply working together to create and all are on the same level it is no longer about any one person showing off but instead connecting with the audience. Singing in harmony with a group, playing with a fine wind or brass section, or pumping out a great feel as part of a rythm section, all these occasions are magical and like that "perfect" golf shot or great sailing day, keep you coming back. This cooperative goal is sometimes actually harder reach in the recording studio than for a live audience.
While my days are filled with music, I still bring a cd player on sailing days, but as stated earlier, it will simply depend on the mood i'm in since total silence works well for me on sails also.
In the music world, however, egos are still a large driving and sometimes destructive force. Having been a working musician for nearly my whole life, I have encountered all types of musicians/singers/performers. Without any ego, I believe one would be too stricken with stage fright to do anything, but when someone says they have no ego the warning bells go off. These are the ones that are often convinced that their way is the only way and they are the 'best' at what they do and don't make mistakes. There's always someone out there that's better.. On those occasions that everyone is simply working together to create and all are on the same level it is no longer about any one person showing off but instead connecting with the audience. Singing in harmony with a group, playing with a fine wind or brass section, or pumping out a great feel as part of a rythm section, all these occasions are magical and like that "perfect" golf shot or great sailing day, keep you coming back. This cooperative goal is sometimes actually harder reach in the recording studio than for a live audience.
While my days are filled with music, I still bring a cd player on sailing days, but as stated earlier, it will simply depend on the mood i'm in since total silence works well for me on sails also.
Interesting thread! I believe that your ego must be balanced with humility. As a performing musician for over 35 years (I’m amazed at the musician/sailor ratio) I know that you need to have an ego to get out on stage and perform your own work in front of 1000 people. You really put yourself out there and maybe let you audience learn more about you than you would really like them to know. However, you need to have humility when you get off the stage to assess your performance. As many here know, when you are in the recording studio you may think you really nailed a piece of your work (ego), but when you sit in the control room listening to your “masterpiece” you often say, “Well, that sucked.”(humility).
Those that have egos but no humility are generally a pain to work with.
Shine On!
Don
Those that have egos but no humility are generally a pain to work with.
Shine On!
Don
I haven't had a chance to give a thoughtful continuation in this thread. One thing I've been meaning to interject is the intended meaning of ego. I don't think ego in the conventional sense is required to be skillful at most things, particularly artistic endeavors. In fact, I believe it's quite the opposite. Stars may develop egos, and superstars in particular use ego almost as a business tool. But ego, as in awareness of self, dissolves when an artist is performing, playing/singing/painting/dancing/... Most people have this experience at some point, but fail to acknowledge it. It's the same thing that happens when you are totally engrossed in a book or movie, or fine piece of music. You disappear for a time. It's fantastic.
Somewhere back in the origin of this thread, I had intended ego as an inviolable contrast to what would seem more preferable, or desirable, and that is a truly shared experience. I was feeling, or had recently felt at that time, something intensely wonderful and was regretting the fact that, while I could describe it to someone, while I could imagine someone hearing the same sounds experiencing something similar, there was no way, there is no way, there can be no way to for two people to completely share one experience. It's even less true for that experience that is surely jumping into everyone's mind. That is, ironically, one of the most isolating experiences possible, despite the minimum requirement of two people. That closeness, incredible as it can seem, is the greatest distance measured by man.
Somewhere back in the origin of this thread, I had intended ego as an inviolable contrast to what would seem more preferable, or desirable, and that is a truly shared experience. I was feeling, or had recently felt at that time, something intensely wonderful and was regretting the fact that, while I could describe it to someone, while I could imagine someone hearing the same sounds experiencing something similar, there was no way, there is no way, there can be no way to for two people to completely share one experience. It's even less true for that experience that is surely jumping into everyone's mind. That is, ironically, one of the most isolating experiences possible, despite the minimum requirement of two people. That closeness, incredible as it can seem, is the greatest distance measured by man.
“A song is an organism that has a history and has different meanings to many different people,” says Rusted Root lead vocalist/guitarist/songwriter Michael Glabicki. “Those people attach themselves to this organism and because of that, it’s a ritual, a way to jointly go places.”
Interesting.
Interesting.
I don't believe a song to be an organism, as it has no life of its own. I believe a song to be a vehicle, a means to transport our inner beings to far away places and far aways sights if we so let it. There is no life in music until in has been given life by the listener. Not even a musician can bring life into music if there is no listener, save the musician.