Echo Charger

[wgkenney]

Hi all,

Over the last two years I've been doing electrical upgrades on my B473 based on the advice in the forum here. So I now have a very nice house bank made up of 6v batteries (my back thanks you), my "start" battery has now been changed to "emergency" and I start off the house, etc, etc

I have one issue left that I would like to address. My emergency battery is charged off the echo charger from my Freedom 20 and it works great. My issue is the start battery for my genset.

I have a Westebeke 7.6 genset in my aft stbd lazerette. I do use it a fair amount at anchor here in the Chesapeake Bay in July for AC (worked great in 104F on July 4 weekend) and then in Oct / Nov for heat. Most of the rest of the time it is idle. The issue is the start battery for it is completely isolated from all the rest of the electrical system. This is a Beneteau so there is a red on/off switch in the port aft cabin with the other on/off red and black neg switch. The charging of this battery is with the alternator on the genset. So to charge the battery I have to run the genset. That works fine in July, Oct, Nov but rest of the year I have to run the genset once a month to charge and I don't likely run it long enough to charge it right.

I'd like to install and echo charger between this battery and the house bank. Here is my question. Technically I should attach to the postitive post on the house bank and then to a positive post on the genset start battery. But that is a long way to run the wire and I have to snake it with the current cables for the genset battery. So is it okay to attach it to the positive post of the red battery switch of each in the aft cabin. I could then locate the unit under the bed with the switches which is a nice cool area and I just have lift the materess and cover board to see status.

Thoughts?

Glenn

 

[jviss]

Has the genset start battery ever failed? I would leave it as-is. Once a month running of the genset is good to do regardless of the start battery, and 20 minutes of running is probably enough to keep the battery in good condition.

I'm not sure of what's on your red switch, but as long as you connect to a terminal that is connected to the charging source, and you fuse the wire going to the echo charger, it should be fine.

However, heed this! All charging sources must show up on the terminal you select. Mainesail has this excellent post on this topic:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/electrical-systems/72295-xantrex-echo-charger-rant.html

 

[Stu Jackson]

So is it okay to attach it to the positive post of the red battery switch of each in the aft cabin. I could then locate the unit under the bed with the switches which is a nice cool area and I just have lift the materess and cover board to see status.

Thoughts?

Glenn

Different ends of the same wire. Why not?

 

[wgkenney]

Thank Jviss - battery basically failed at the same time as the others when I replaced them. It does struggle a little in the months when I'm not using it much but it will start.

The Beneteaus don't have a traditional on/off/both switch. We have just a on/off for the start battery, house, inverter isolation, the controversial black neg on/off; And in my case I have the on/off for the genset start battery. So the switch has the battery cables and sensors connected to it.

Thanks Stu, this seems logical to me as well, but I always like to verify here before I do something different from the instructions.

 

[wgkenney]

jviss - thanks for the MS link. Critical info.

 

[Maine Sail]

Yes mounting an Echo to utilize the large battery cables is fine just be sure to use the fuses and make sure it is taking from the house wire and feeding to the gen set battery and you'll be fine. This is one nice feature about the Echo in that the wires are small and allow you to stack on a batt switch and you usually have the room to do so because they are not 2GA or larger.


This is a good application for an Echo..

 

[onecoolair]

I found out a while back about dualing engine alternators. while installing new dedicated start battery for yanmar. I did something supid while I was down there hooking up start battery I noticed my gen was connected to the house bank one. So I had a bright idea, connect gen to same battery. "BIG" mistake. I had been misinformed by dealer that my 20 minute panda did not have a 12 volt alt out put..WRONG!! Was told to use charger to charge batteries off gen when needed....While giving the yanmar a little bit of run time checking things out. Everything was just fine until I got the bright idea to start gen this is when things went bad very bad!!! Alternator on yanmar started making all sort of sick sounds and smoke poured out from engine compartment could not shut it down fast enough. Generator won toasting alternator on yanmar. Luckily no damage to generator. It seem gen setup before I screwed with it was okay because my house banks are isolaled. This is was why Gen was able to run at the same time yanmar was running. And because of the way the isolation was set up gen alt could not charge house bank.
Gen now as its own small seperate start battery, with what I call an emergency on/ off tied in to bank one just like before and can help start gen if needed and thats it..
I now have an extra 1/2/both/off next to engine, which allows me to shut off start battery to engine. Engine alt has extra wire that goes to an isolater. Isolator #1 feeds echo charger to starter battery at back of cut off switch #1, Isolator #2 goes to back of cut off switch #2 which goes back to house main 1/2/both/off switch "c" post. Left sensor wire to harness connected to alt. This way new alt can see what ever house bank needs and regulate properly. Echo takes care of starter battery. I need to draw up ledgable diagram of what I did, when I do I will post it.
Oh yes almost forgot....Read previous posting #19...this will explain more. http://forums.hunter.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=143388

 

[Maine Sail]

I found out a while back about dualing engine alternators. while installing new dedicated start battery for yanmar. I did something supid while I was down there hooking up start battery I noticed my gen was connected to the house bank one. So I had a bright idea, connect gen to same battery. "BIG" mistake. I had been misinformed by dealer that my 20 minute panda did not have a 12 volt alt out put..WRONG!! Was told to use charger to charge batteries off gen when needed....While giving the yanmar a little bit of run time checking things out. Everything was just fine until I got the bright idea to start gen this is when things went bad very bad!!! Alternator on yanmar started making all sort of sick sounds and smoke poured out from engine compartment could not shut it down fast enough. Generator won toasting alternator on yanmar. Luckily no damage to generator. It seem gen setup before I screwed with it was okay because my house banks are isolaled. This is was why Gen was able to run at the same time yanmar was running. And because of the way the isolation was set up gen alt could not charge house bank.
Gen now as its own small seperate start battery, with a emergy on off tied in to bank one just like before and can help start gen if needed and thats it..
I now have an extra 1/2/both/off next to engine, which allows me to shut off start battery to engine. engine alt has extra wire that goes to isolater. Isolator #1 feeds echo charger to starter battery at back of cut off switch #1, Isolator #2 goes to back of cut off switch #2 which goes back to house main 1/2/both/off switch "c" post. Left sensor wire to harness connect to alt. This way new alt can see what ever house bank needs and regulate properly. Echo takes care of starter battery. I need to draw up ledgable diagram of what I did, when I do I will post it.
Oh yes almost forgot....Read previous posting #19...this will explain more. http://forums.hunter.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=143388

Something was probably wired wrong as that should not have happened.. There is no issue having multiple charge sources feeding one bank. I have many boats with multiple charge sources all feeding the same bank. I have one customer with over 1000Ah of AGM battery he uses his genset alt and two alternators mounted on the main engine plus the 100A shore charger running off the generator. He can pump 300-350A into this bank in bulk using all the sources.... The only time there is any issue is once the bank gets to absorption voltage then the regulator with the highest voltage becomes the dominant charge source. Not bad because you really don't need that much current in absorption. On this customers boat the 150A engine alt is programmed with the highest voltage so the little 50A alt on the gen set does not become the dominant voltage at 14.4V..

 

[onecoolair]

Thanks for the information. Must have been some sort of failure of the internal regular on 55amp hatachi alt. But after it happen I google what happened and came up with some result on this daulling alt.issuie. So I just figured that was it. What got me was that gen had never been able to charge house batteries when running. It would only charge whille putting out 120v to the charger. And I was told this by dealer that it did not have 12v alt...So I believed them.
So now if I could get my panda to run more then 15 to 20 minutes before shut down..:cussing:

 

[Maine Sail]

Thanks for the information. Must have been some sort of failure of the internal regular on 55amp hatachi alt. But after it happen I google what happened and came up with some result on this daulling alt.issuie. So I just figured that was it. What got me was that gen had never been able to charge house batteries when running. It would only charge whille putting out 120v to the charger. And I was told this by dealer that it did not have 12v alt...So I believed them.
So now if I could get my panda to run more then 15 to 20 minutes before shut down..:cussing:

I've not seen a Panda with an alt.... They do refer to the AC generator portion as an "alternator" even though it is AC and not DC and pumping out 120V....

 

[onecoolair]

I've not seen a Panda with an alt.... They do refer to the AC generator portion as an "alternator" even though it is AC and not DC and pumping out 120V....

Well it turns out this one does. 2002...6kw kubuda/panda.... Like I said before gen now has its on seperate battery. I have sensor wire from that battery to battery test selector switch at my main nav breaker panel. When gen is running I am seeing a definite active charging rate to battery of +14.8 volts....Thats with no other charging source to that gen battery. Do you think maybe it is just a 12v alt output to a large inverter type set up?? I have not been able to see gen alt drop voltage down yet because gen always shuts down after about 15 to 20 minutes. Now if I really need it I can wait about 5 to 10 minute and it will restart like nothings wrong and may then run for several hours or all night.
its hit or miss one never knows. I have been trouble shooting this problem for several years but have found no solutions. Panda engine is keep very clean and well maintained. In fact at first glance it looks almost new.
Hmmm?? Do you think we need to start a new thread now ? subject "20 minute kubuda panda generator"

 

[Maine Sail]

Well it turns out this one does. 2002...6kw kubuda/panda.... Like I said before gen now has its on seperate battery. I have sensor wire from that battery to battery test selector switch at my main nav breaker panel. When gen is running I am seeing a definite active charging rate to battery of +14.8 volts....Thats with no other charging source to that gen battery. Do you think maybe it is just a 12v alt output to a large inverter type set up?? I have not been able to see gen alt drop voltage down yet because gen always shuts down after about 15 to 20 minutes. Now if I really need it I can wait about 5 to 10 minute and it will restart like nothings wrong and may then run for several hours or all night.
its hit or miss one never knows. I have been trouble shooting this problem for several years but have found no solutions. Panda engine is keep very clean and well maintained. In fact at first glance it looks almost new.
Hmmm?? Do you think we need to start a new thread now ? subject "20 minute kubuda panda generator"

Sorry automatically assumed it was the 4.2kw version with the Farymann engine. This is what I see most of due to its small size... The 6kw versions do have an engien alt.

 

[wgkenney]

Yes mounting an Echo to utilize the large battery cables is fine just be sure to use the fuses and make sure it is taking from the house wire and feeding to the gen set battery and you'll be fine. This is one nice feature about the Echo in that the wires are small and allow you to stack on a batt switch and you usually have the room to do so because they are not 2GA or larger.

This is a good application for an Echo..

Thanks Maine

 

[wgkenney]

Thanks all,

I ordered the Echo Charger this past weekend and should be able to install it in the next week or so