Echo Charger

[Roger Long]

I start on my house bank 100% of the time...

Doesn't that make it a "Starting / House Bank"?

I run my two batteries as just a single bank all the time. It's simple and spreading the house load discharge across all batteries cuts the depth of the discharge in half which extends the life of my expensive AGM's. I know this is heresy but my hotel and starting loads are modest and the probability of flat lining the system much less than on boats with refrigeration, big screen TV's, etc.

I'm going to buy one of those portable car starting batteries at some point. The other full discharge drill is to sail into harbor, anchor, row the dinghy ashore, and take a cab or hitch hike to the nearest gas station to buy a cheap battery.

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

I suspect that the remote panel that you are refering to is a battery monitor that is wired quite independently from your charger, so the fact that it is showing a different voltage is not proof that your charger has separate regulators for each bank. In my case both banks are charged from only one of the three sets of Xantrex terminals (wiring by previous owner) so I KNOW that it can not discriminate between two battery banks.:naughty:

No Neil. The remote panel is connected directly back to the charger and monitors voltage at each distribution point independently. The charger does most definitely produce different voltages through separate regulators.

To go back to the original point, if you want to protect your start batteries from overcharging by the alternator, the eco charger will do that. If, however, you routinely charge off shore power and the Xantrex charger, you don't need anything.

 

[Chuckbear]

Other than the fact that the owner's manual says, " WARNING! DO NOT OPERATE THE CHARGER WHEN THE ENGINE IS RUNNING" (ALL CAPS), I would think the voltage put out by the alternator might make the charger think that it is seeing battery voltage- which it is not- and adjust accordingly. Also, a high voltage from one source driven into the other might burn something out (diode, or whatever).

You are quite right in that the voltage from the alternator will trick the charger into adjusting and it will stop putting out amps and the alternator at that point will be the charging source. 13.6 to 14.1 is not high voltage to a charger and if so the charger needs to be replaced. These are the voltages they are designed for. In 35 years as a service tech I have never seen and alternator or charger burn out or default as a result of running both at the same time. In addition it is highly unlikely that they will be run in this configuration for hours. But of course it comes down to whatever you feel comfortable with. There is just no science to confirm this would cause a big problem. Remember that manuals and information from manufacturers are mostly written by lawyers and are designed to CYA.

 

[Maine Sail]

Depends

Doesn't that make it a "Starting / House Bank"?

No not necessarily. It only means that I use my actual house bank for everything and save my other bank in the case of an actual emergency. It's really a matter of semantics. I call it my house bank and my other bank is my "emergency" or "back up" bank..

I do have a dedicated "emergency" battery/bank. I personally don't like the term "start bank" when spoken of in the context of a 1/2BOTH/OFF switch as the "start" bank is not necessarily a start bank but just one of the banks that is usually smaller in total capacity.

A dedicated starting battery is, IMHO, hard wired directly to the starter and not controlled through a 1/2/BOTH/OFF switch but rather an ON/OFF switch.

1/2/BOTH/OFF switches can lead to trouble and human error this is why I advise wiring your alt output directly to the house bank, no risk of frying diodes, and then using an Echo Charger or battery combining relay to charge the emergency bank. By doing this you only every need to use position #1 on your battery switch for your house bank. If you happen to kill your house bank you simple turn the switch to position #2 and start the motor.

One should not use the BOTH position in a situation where you have depleted an entire bank as the combining effect actually sucks & equalizes the charge from one bank, the full one, to the other bank, the dead one, until an over all lower voltage across the entire bank is equalized. If your dead house bank is a large one you will totally kill all your capacity by using the BOTH switch position in an emergency.

On a poorly wired system the only time the BOTH position should be used is when you are actively charging. Of course human error kicks in and often folks forget to disconnect the banks after they turn off the motor and they then run the risk of killing their entire battery capacity. Echo's & chraging relays do this for you automatically so as to remove human error..

I also always advise the use of a good quality battery monitor so that you never put yourself in a situation where you actually kill your house bank. IMHO this should be the absolute first charging system upgrade anyone does even before adding a bigger alt or battery banks..

For $200.00 the Victron BMV-600 is a great unit at a great price. My Xantrex XBM was made by Victron and has been tremendously reliable..

One thing that always concerns me is the assumption that in an emergency situation the "BOTH" position is the preferred switch position. I hear this time and time again. Using the "BOTH" position is not and should not be used in this fashion as it is the quickest way to having two totally useless banks.

Never combine a dead battery bank with a good one!!!!

 

[sailingdog]

One thing that always concerns me is the assumption that in an emergency situation the "BOTH" position is the preferred switch position. I hear this time and time again. Using the "BOTH" position is not and should not be used in this fashion as it is the quickest way to having two totally useless banks.

While I agree with Maine Sail on this point, I'd also point out that combining batteries when you have a good large house bank and a depleted starting battery is far less a problem than if you have a depleted large house bank and a good starting battery. The former will draw down the house bank a bit, but the latter will kill the starting battery.

 

[Maine Sail]

Agreed, but....

While I agree with Maine Sail on this point, I'd also point out that combining batteries when you have a good large house bank and a depleted starting battery is far less a problem than if you have a depleted large house bank and a good starting battery. The former will draw down the house bank a bit, but the latter will kill the starting battery.

But why one Earth would you combine a known good bank with a known dead one regardless of one or the other banks size?

Combining a good bank with a dead one adds absolutely zero benefit to getting your engine started. While it is less offensive to combine a dead start bank with a good larger house bank it still boggles me why someone would ever do this, when in an actual emergency situation, with one dead bank.

 

[Stu Jackson]

I agree w/ MS's #24 and #26 with one exception

which is the discussion of the 1-2-B switch. If you read my previously posted links, you'll see that in my design and wiring diagram (see reply #23 here, which includes a link to MS/s earlier post of this board about "reserve emergency backup" compared to "start" banks): http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4623.15.html) deliberately includes the old 1-2-B switch. The alternator output is removed from the switch and run to the house bank using a (switchable) combiner - which could just have well (and even better have) been an echo charger -- but they hadn't made those yet when I bought the combiner! (1998).

In my design, the 1-2-B switch ONLY takes power FROM the banks (for the starter and the DP only), the alternator output is never run through the switch. It used to be when the boat was built, which required using the 1-2-B switch to determine which banks got charged when the alternator was running. That concept was based the cheapest way for the manufacturers to wire the boats. It was dumb. Unfortunately, many still do so.

For a comparative wiring diagram with the reserve bank switched separately, see reply #14 here: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4787.0.html In this wiring design, there still is a (somewhat convoluted) way to have the reserve bank power the DP while disengaging the house bank (like, if it's dead!). I dealt with it offline with Craig. See if you can figure it out.

Using Both to combine bad and good banks is plain nuts. That's why I keep ranting about the Dual Circuit Switch, which I think is just plain wrong.

We agree with MS - the house bank is just fine for everything on board, and keeping the reserve bank for just that purpose is the simplest way to go. I've heard of many folks from those who spend the extra $$ to buy packaged car backup battery packs, all the way to those who rely on simply switching battery leads. I have concluded that having everything right there, on board, in place, ready to go, and just understanding and using simple switches, is all that's necessary.

The conclusion are simple:

1. You have many choices when it comes to electrical system design.

2. There are a few "good" and simple ways to do it: (a) separate the reserve and the house banks and switch them with on/off switches and a way to have the reserve bank power the starter and the DP; or (b) use the old 1-2-B switch to perform the same functions - one switch instead of three!:dance:

3. Avoid "both" with any design - why combine a good bank with a dead one, ever?

4. Study what's available through this board, others and REAL FACTS from vendors and reputable reference books, like Calder's Boatowner's Manual and many others.

5. Make up you own mind about what you want and how to run your boat, including the basic switching, banks, and automatic relays of all kinds from automatically or manually charging the reserve bank from the (usually single output) alternator and (single or multiple)shorepower charger, i.e., combiners echo chargers, duo chargers, other relays like oil pressure, etc.). If working with a single output alternator, thus necessitating a way to charge the reserve bank with an automatic relay, it makes basic sense to simply use just one shorepower charger output and use the same (relay) concept to handle the reserve bank rather than multiple shorepower wiring to the second bank -- but you can make that choice yourself.

6. Make a wiring diagram before and after you do the work so you have documentation of what you have.

Your boat, your choice. Ain't nice to have choices?

 

[Bill Roosa]

Well said Stu

Perhaps it is old fashion but having lots of "automatic" switches seems to me to be a good way to end of having to get a jump start. I do not ever recall hearing of a 3-way switch failing unless you run 400+ amps through it and then it catches fire and that is pretty obvious that something is wrong.
All the automatic stuff can be accomplished by a 3 way switch. You have to pay attention to what you are doing however as you can, as others have noted connect a dead bank to a full one and get some pretty high current flows.
My thoughts are:
Wire all charging sources (controller output for wind or solar) to the Common terminal of the 3 way except the battery charger which should be wired to each bank separately.
While at the dock leave the switch in the both position.
When starting with 2 full banks leave the switch in the both position
When motoring with (with two full banks) leave the switch in the both position
When under sail or at anchor switch to the house bank to reserve the starting battery.
When trying to start after being on the hook all night try to start on the house bank. If that works then leave the switch on house. If it does not work then switch to start, start the motor and then switch back to house (not both) to charge the house batteries only. Once the voltage drops off switch to both.
If you are just motoring out of the anchorage and then sailing just leave it on house till you can charge up the house batteries with wind, solar, some more motoring or get back to the dock.
If you arrive at the dock with one bank discharged then you want to switch to off, house or start but not both so the charger sees each bank separately. Once the house bank is charged switch to both.

All the automatic stuff limits you ability to recover from batteries going dead due to a shorted cell etc., can fail without warning and cost an arm an a leg. Better I think, to pay a little more attention to your electrical use and have simpler more reliable wiring systems.

 

[Neil McDonald]

Decision Time

Your boat, your choice. Ain't nice to have choices?

Having listened to all the opinions and looked at many of the references, here's what I'm a gonna do!

Wire both the existing Xantrex smart charger and the alternator directly to the house bank (only) and totally isolate the starter battery from everything except the starter motor. Add a Xantrex echo charger to the house battery to charge the starter battery, and fit it with a kill switch for use during any extended periods when I don't want to risk overcharging the starter battery. Replace the presently dying starter battery with an Optima, which is both a maintenance free sealed unit (remember my difficult access problem) and it seems to like the same charging voltages as my 6V golf cart house batteries. Pack a set of jumper cables so that, in the unlikely event that the new starter battery should ever die, I can hot wire the starter motor from the house batteries and go home.

Is everyone happy...probably not! Thanks for all the suggestions.

 

[Maine Sail]

Yup old fashioned..

Perhaps it is old fashion but having lots of "automatic" switches seems to me to be a good way to end of having to get a jump start. I do not ever recall hearing of a 3-way switch failing unless you run 400+ amps through it and then it catches fire and that is pretty obvious that something is wrong.
All the automatic stuff can be accomplished by a 3 way switch. You have to pay attention to what you are doing however as you can, as others have noted connect a dead bank to a full one and get some pretty high current flows.
My thoughts are:
Wire all charging sources (controller output for wind or solar) to the Common terminal of the 3 way except the battery charger which should be wired to each bank separately.
While at the dock leave the switch in the both position.
When starting with 2 full banks leave the switch in the both position
When motoring with (with two full banks) leave the switch in the both position
When under sail or at anchor switch to the house bank to reserve the starting battery.
When trying to start after being on the hook all night try to start on the house bank. If that works then leave the switch on house. If it does not work then switch to start, start the motor and then switch back to house (not both) to charge the house batteries only. Once the voltage drops off switch to both.
If you are just motoring out of the anchorage and then sailing just leave it on house till you can charge up the house batteries with wind, solar, some more motoring or get back to the dock.
If you arrive at the dock with one bank discharged then you want to switch to off, house or start but not both so the charger sees each bank separately. Once the house bank is charged switch to both.

All the automatic stuff limits you ability to recover from batteries going dead due to a shorted cell etc., can fail without warning and cost an arm an a leg. Better I think, to pay a little more attention to your electrical use and have simpler more reliable wiring systems.

With all due respect Bill I have been on these and other forums now for well over ten years. The one single common denominator I see over, and over, and over is human error. Frying diodes, killing the entire boats capacity because when you got to your anchorage you forgot to switch back to the house bank only etc. etc.. I have yet to hear of anyone killing a battery combining relay or an Echo Charger. I'm sure it has happened but human error, at least on the 15+ sailing forums I monitor, is by far and away the single biggest contributor I read about that leads to dead batts or a toasted alternator..

The system I use is just about as fool proof as it gets. Certainly if a shorted cell happens as you describe, and you had your 1/2/B switch to BOTH, while at the dock charging, you are in no better situation than anyone else.

While at the dock leave the switch in the both position.

I can't fry my diodes, never have to touch my battery switch and yet I can still use the BOTH option if by a very strange event my charging relay or Echo charger failed. I can still use my battery switch just as you do only my charging is done automatically which removes human error.

I have been using a Yandina battery combining relay now for just about ten years. I have had them on every boat I owned. They have never, ever cause one ounce of problems unlike my three failed Balmar alternator regulators (you want to talk dead in the water). I am switching to an Echo charger this winter for a number of reasons but I would still take a battery relay and a direct wired alternator any day over manually using my 1/2/B switch..

Boat builders are generally lazy when it comes to on engine wiring. The on engine wiring that routes the alternator over to the post on the starter is potentially unsafe for your alternator when connected to a 1/2/B/OFF switch as most builders do. Unfortunately for owners who fry their alternator by switching through OFF the builders could care less..

When I install my Echo Charger I will also leave my Yandina battery relay installed but it will have a switch to disable it. In the event that I kill my Echo Charger, though very doubtful, I will still have the ability to have automated charging before I need to resort back to using my BOTH option. Even by running all my charging directly to my house bank this still allows me the use of the BOTH position to charge both bank in the event of a relay or Echo failure...

You said:

Better I think, to pay a little more attention to your electrical use and have simpler more reliable wiring systems.

Seriously you actually call this simple???

While at the dock leave the switch in the both position.
When starting with 2 full banks leave the switch in the both position

When motoring with (with two full banks) leave the switch in the both position

When under sail or at anchor switch to the house bank to reserve the starting battery.

When trying to start after being on the hook all night try to start on the house bank. If that works then leave the switch on house. If it does not work then switch to start, start the motor and then switch back to house (not both) to charge the house batteries only.

Once the voltage drops off switch to both.

If you are just motoring out of the anchorage and then sailing just leave it on house till you can charge up the house batteries with wind, solar, some more motoring or get back to the dock.

If you arrive at the dock with one bank discharged then you want to switch to off, house or start but not both so the charger sees each bank separately. Once the house bank is charged switch to both.

I call this simple..

Leave the switch on Bank 1, let the automated system do the rest...

 

[Stu Jackson]

Well done, Neil, you GOT IT!

Bill,

Get the alternator output off the switch, and you might have a chance at some electrical sanity! Using B, ever, makes NO sense, except for what MS mentioned, see below. Any alternator output that goes through the 1-2-B switch is insanity and fried diodes could result. Use the house bank for everything, and save the reserve bank for just that. How simple can it get? Bill, I understand from your posts and PMs how you use your boat, but it isn't for everyone, and is certainly NOT simple.

Neil,

Well done, you have it nailed. Good for you! :wow:

Pack a set of jumper cables so that, in the unlikely event that the new starter battery should ever die, I can hot wire the starter motor from the house batteries and go home.

Don't bother if you do it right, and follow MS's advice and mine.

Oh, PULEEZE, call it the right term: emergency, backup, reserve. Use your house bank for everything, and you won't have to ever call it a "s" thingy ever again.

MS,

Yup, the B works if (and/or when) the relay fails. Wow, a backup system built right in. I was wondering when someone would mention the basic benefit of the 1-2-B switch. One day, when I finish that darned article I keep promising...

I did, somewhere, mention that I have a backup ACR on board, just in case...

 

[Ron20324]

I have three batteries, and each one has its own switch to turn them on/off to connect them to the positive power buss as needed. The Xantrex has a feed to each battery. The alternator and starter wire to the positive buss. This way I can turn on two for house use, but if one dies I can switch it out- not as easily done if they're cabled together. I charge all three on the shore power then whichever is used to start the engine, I leave on to top it off from the alternator. It is easy to switch them in/out to charge when on long-distance motoring. Disbelievers need not reply- it works for me.

 

[Scott B]

1/2/BOTH/OFF switches can lead to trouble and human error this is why I advise wiring your alt output directly to the house bank, no risk of frying diodes, and then using an Echo Charger or battery combining relay to charge the emergency bank. By doing this you only every need to use position #1 on your battery switch for your house bank. If you happen to kill your house bank you simple turn the switch to position #2 and start the motor.

I have the house and emergency bank separate on the 1/2/Both switch, with the emergency battery on an echo charger and run on the house bank. Couple of times I had to switch to the emergency bank after running down the house bank overnight. ( I just bought a monitor, Link Lite, and am looking at Golf Car batteries)

My question is, when I switch to 2 ( emergency battery) when do I switch back to 1 to charge the house bank. Can I switch while motoring and charge the house bank while underway. Sometimes getting back to shore power could be a day or two.

 

[Maine Sail]

Where is your alt wired?

I have the house and emergency bank separate on the 1/2/Both switch, with the emergency battery on an echo charger and run on the house bank. Couple of times I had to switch to the emergency bank after running down the house bank overnight. ( I just bought a monitor, Link Lite, and am looking at Golf Car batteries)

My question is, when I switch to 2 ( emergency battery) when do I switch back to 1 to charge the house bank. Can I switch while motoring and charge the house bank while underway. Sometimes getting back to shore power could be a day or two.

Where is your alternator fed to? Most battery switches, & certainly yours, will be make before break so as long as you never pass through OFF you'll be fine to switch it to BOTH after you have the motor running.

If you ran your alternator wire directly to the house bank, as Stu and I do, your house bank and start bank will still charge even with the switch on position 2. With this configuration you can switch back to the house bank any time after you have started the engine with no worry about frying the diodes by passing the switch through the OFF position.

If you have not directly wired the alt to the house bank it is a good idea.

 

[Scott B]

I believe it goes to the switch. Would this make sense? I can't exactly recall but it seems to me there was only one wire to the house battery.

I'll have a good look in April when I can get back on the boat and look at installing the new batteries as well. I can map out the wiring better and see what I have and what I need to change.

 

[John Nantz]

Neil - a couple comments....

Once I read your post I knew you'd get a lot of comments. I won't comment on the original post but just make a few comments in the "for what it's worth" department.

1. Start battery: The starter likes high voltage and lots of current. After being on the house bank overnight the batteries are usually down to an area of around 12.25 > ~12.00 or, in the worst case, as low as 11.85. Obviously starting on the house bank you'd think wouldn't be as good as using the starter battery at around 12.50V or more. However, the house bank has lots of current available which can, to some degree, make up for the voltage deficiency. If the house bank hasn't been drained too much overnight I'll most likely use it for starting in the morning but if they're down in voltage I'll switch over to the start battery. If it's a little late in the morning the solar panels will also kick in several amps. Starting the motor the next morning is usually very easy.

A little more on the start battery. Before I put in the Group 27 for a start battery, which was quite a few years ago, I had a dead battery problem and had to get another battery to jump start it. It so happened I had this really old Honda Accord battery which I had replaced with a new one and that had been sitting in the garage. Sooo...... grabbing a battery carrier strap and latching onto the terminals I threw it into the trunk and down to the marina I went. What and eye-opener! That old, low charge, battery cranked the engine over perfectly fine. In fact, I'd say, spun it over. Perhaps the point here is, for comparison, the Honda battery was a TRUE start battery where as the Group 27 that I wound up putting in, that I thought would be good for that purpose, really doesn't seem to do as well. In fact, I don't even think the four golf carts in the house bank do as well, either.

As a suggestion, before casting the "new design" in concrete, you might consider testing your situation with a small automotive start battery and see if you get similar results. If you do, then maybe an alternative would be a small automotive "maintenance-free" flooded battery for the starter side.

2. Batteries (this covers a bit of the same ground as above): I'm using a couple banks of golf carts for the house and they fit in the same place as the original batteries. It was a tight fit but there is clearance above the battery posts and they all fit in battery boxes to keep it "legal". I've got a start group 27 that is aft of where the propeller shaft comes through the hull. And, it is a bit of a bear to access for checking fluid levels because it is behind the second bunk cushion. It has been there for many years but it keeps it's voltage up so that is a plus. When it comes time to replace I'll do a test with a car battery and see if it spins the motor as good, and if it does, I'll switch to a comparatively small car battery for the starter motor and drop the Group 27.

The four golf-carts are good for running refrigeration and the forced air heater.

3. Switching systems: I'm not using any combiners or anything - just a couple manual 1/2/both switches, upgraded to Blue Sea high amperage models.

4. Monitoring system: Went with a Link 2000 system which provides accurate voltage readouts to two decimal points. Also gives Ah-hrs, amps, etc. Kinda fun to watch. It also works with solar panels and the wind generator so it was a good investment.

5. Battery lugs: Kept all the battery lugs to one bolt size which, I believe, was 3/8". You never can tell when you have to jury-rig something. Per code you can go one size over the stud size and as it turns out that worked out.

6. Battery life: I'm only on my second set of golf carts since '93!

7. BatteryMINDer: This is an interesting item because they have a patented "desulfating" circuit. It sends pulses at various frequencies to knock the sulfation off of the plates. I won't put a link here because I don't want to ask for permission but you can Google (no link for that, either!) them. I'm just trying one unit out now (Model 12248) and will see how it works. It can be hard-wired or use clamps. I'm using clamps now because I've got a few cars I don't drive much and need to de-sulfate their batteries, too. This might actually be preferable to doing the equalizing mode.

Like I said, nothing on the original post but a little different approach.

 

[NotCook]

Combining Dead and Live Batteries

Combining a good bank with a dead one adds absolutely zero benefit to getting your engine started. While it is less offensive to combine a dead start bank with a good larger house bank it still boggles me why someone would ever do this, when in an actual emergency situation, with one dead bank.

The best reason I can think of is if you need to start your engine and the start battery is dead. Seems a perfectly appropriate solution, if you have this set up. I agree, the alternative would be pointless, and would just kill your good starting battery.

We don't have this option. We have an "emergency start" button which joins my main engine and genset start batteries. They are not connected in any way to my 2 house batteries, which are independently charged, and on a 1-2-B switch. Those are all independent from the 24V bank for the anchor windlass, and the 24V bank for the bow thruster. My only option other than the crossover button (aside from recabling in an emergency) is to run my charger from my house batteries and inverter, to get a charge to dead start batteries. Only ever did that once, and it was not particularly effective.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Ron's point (in #32) is well taken, because Beneteau's

are wired completely differently than most other boats. I do not recall the details but had helped a friend with a B336 with his Link 2000 and he pointed that out to me. They have a series of switches, on the B336 they were in the aft cabin. I only got a brief glimpse of his factory wiring diagram and did not study it in detail. If it works, that's great.

The "different" Beneteau wiring has come up on this board a few times as I recall.

 

[Shell]

Informative and lively thread!
I would like to add one thought not metioned in this thread of charging and switching.
If you sail in a crowded area such as NY Harbor, it may not be prudent to switch your starting battery off. Many times you may need to quickly start the motor to get out of situation. No time to leave the helm and go down below to switch the starting battery on to start the engine.

Can't wait for solar sails. Sails that charge the battery. You heard it here first!

Good luck to all!

 

[Neil McDonald]

As a suggestion, before casting the "new design" in concrete, you might consider testing your situation with a small automotive start battery and see if you get similar results. If you do, then maybe an alternative would be a small automotive "maintenance-free" flooded battery for the starter side....... I'm using a couple banks of golf carts for the house and they fit in the same place as the original batteries. It was a tight fit but there is clearance above the battery posts and they all fit in battery boxes to keep it "legal". I've got a start group 27 that is aft of where the propeller shaft comes through the hull. And, it is a bit of a bear to access for checking fluid levels because it is behind the second bunk cushion.

John, since we both have H35Ls, I am very interested in your battery locations. My starter battery is in the bottom of the lazarette, just in front of the engine exhaust silencer. I have an intermediate floor built into this space to make it more functional. So I have to pull out all the junk and the floor in order to access this battery. What a pain! Regular maintenance free auto batteries are I believe all AGMs - which do not have the same charging requirements as flooded cells and this causes different problems. That is why Stu has pointed me towards an (expensive) Optima.

Your starter battery is placed "aft of where the propeller shaft comes through the hull". On my boat this area is sealed off by a teak faced wooden bulhead, complete with access door, at the rear of the rear berth. Sounds like your starter battery is almost as difficult to get to as mine.:cry: What a waste of space this area is. I guess Hunter figured this out in 1999 when they fitted access hatches to the top of the sugar scoop.

You talk about having a "couple of banks" of 6V golf cart house batteries, installed where the original batteries were fitted, and that it is a tight fit. I assume that you mean 2 batteries in total not 4. If you have fitted 4 x 6V's withinin this space, we need to talk as I would dearly love to increase the size of my house bank but am struggling to find convenient space for two extra 6V's.