The April 2007 edition of the Boat US publication "Seaworthy" contains an interesting -- and scary -- article about the future possibility of ethanol being added to diesel fuel, much the same way it has been for gasoline. As most boat owners who use gasoline know, the introduction of ethanol into their fuel system created a number of serious problems, like clogged fuel filters and the deterioration of fiberglass fuel tanks. Additionally, the lubricity of diesel fuel would be even further reduced than it already is since the introduction of ULSD last year. It seems likely to me that diesel owners would suffer the same problems as gasoline users if ethanol eventually does find its way into the diesel fuel supply. This is a topic worth keeping abreast of.... The link below only contains a summary of the full article in the April 2007 edition. It is worth your while to get a copy and read it, IMHO.
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Warren I googled diesel fuel and ethanol
and got this: Ethanol Blended Diesel Fuel Ethanol blended diesel fuel is a mixture of ethanol and diesel fuel. The ratio of these two fuel components varies with the manufacturer. In addition, a co-solvent is added to allow for the diesel to mix with the ethanol. The fuel E-Diesel that is currently being used in a pilot project of Husky Energy Ltd., Octel-Starreon/AAE, and Winnipeg Transit combines 91.5 per cent diesel fuel, 7.5 per cent ethanol, and 1 per cent co-solvent. Currently ethanol blended diesel fuel is used by a variety of users in the United States and Europe. Winnipeg is the location of the first pilot demonstration of an ethanol-blended diesel fuel in Canada. This demonstration was facilitated by Manitoba Conservation and started in October of 2001. It involves 10 Winnipeg Transit buses that are used on regular routes. Users in other localities have introduced the fuel into regular use in both heavy vehicles (e.g. dump trucks) and transport trucks. The benefits of using this fuel include a 3 per cent reduction in greenhouse gas emissions and reduced emissions of some air pollutants (notably particulate matter, carbon monoxide and nitrogen oxides). At the moment there are no gas stations that sell ethanol blended diesel fuel. In a few years we may see it marketed to large fleet users such as transit systems and highway transport trucks. Manitoba Energy, Science & Technology, Energy Development Initiative © 2003 I don't think there is need to be concerned yet. We shall stay tuned for more.
and got this: Ethanol Blended Diesel Fuel Ethanol blended diesel fuel is a mixture of ethanol and diesel fuel. The ratio of these two fuel components varies with the manufacturer. In addition, a co-solvent is added to allow for the diesel to mix with the ethanol. The fuel E-Diesel that is currently being used in a pilot project of Husky Energy Ltd., Octel-Starreon/AAE, and Winnipeg Transit combines 91.5 per cent diesel fuel, 7.5 per cent ethanol, and 1 per cent co-solvent. Currently ethanol blended diesel fuel is used by a variety of users in the United States and Europe. Winnipeg is the location of the first pilot demonstration of an ethanol-blended diesel fuel in Canada. This demonstration was facilitated by Manitoba Conservation and started in October of 2001. It involves 10 Winnipeg Transit buses that are used on regular routes. Users in other localities have introduced the fuel into regular use in both heavy vehicles (e.g. dump trucks) and transport trucks. The benefits of using this fuel include a 3 per cent reduction in greenhouse gas emissions and reduced emissions of some air pollutants (notably particulate matter, carbon monoxide and nitrogen oxides). At the moment there are no gas stations that sell ethanol blended diesel fuel. In a few years we may see it marketed to large fleet users such as transit systems and highway transport trucks. Manitoba Energy, Science & Technology, Energy Development Initiative © 2003 I don't think there is need to be concerned yet. We shall stay tuned for more.
What's the fuss?
Now I know I'm not the brightest person in the world but I have made the following observations: 1) Most of my engine is lubricated by an oil pressure pump that would not be effected by ethanol added to the fuel. 2) My fuel injectors in my gasoline engine car get plenty of lub from the gas with ethanol and operate at the same tolerances and on the same principals as diesel injectors. Gasoline is certainly in the same category as ethanol when it comes to oils that don't lube well. 3) Fuel pumps for diesels are not heavily loaded parts. They have close tolerances but there is not that much force to deal with. 4) the primary purpose of lubricants is to keep heavily loaded parts separated by hydrodynamic pressure. 5) Diesel with ethanol added still has diesel in it. and most importantly 6) The fuel companies are not going to put something in the fuel that ruins your engine. It is bad business to buy everybody a new engine due to a class action law suit. From this I deduce that ethanol in diesel will have about as much effect as taking the lead out of gas or the sulfur out of diesel. There will be lots of noise about it and folks concocting ethanol removers/filters but in the end all we will have is a cleaner air and a cleaner fuel tank. While I do not relish having to clean my tank before I make the change over I recognize that many boating accidents have happened because of dirt in the fuel tank. It would be worth it to have the piece of mind a clean tank would bring.
Now I know I'm not the brightest person in the world but I have made the following observations: 1) Most of my engine is lubricated by an oil pressure pump that would not be effected by ethanol added to the fuel. 2) My fuel injectors in my gasoline engine car get plenty of lub from the gas with ethanol and operate at the same tolerances and on the same principals as diesel injectors. Gasoline is certainly in the same category as ethanol when it comes to oils that don't lube well. 3) Fuel pumps for diesels are not heavily loaded parts. They have close tolerances but there is not that much force to deal with. 4) the primary purpose of lubricants is to keep heavily loaded parts separated by hydrodynamic pressure. 5) Diesel with ethanol added still has diesel in it. and most importantly 6) The fuel companies are not going to put something in the fuel that ruins your engine. It is bad business to buy everybody a new engine due to a class action law suit. From this I deduce that ethanol in diesel will have about as much effect as taking the lead out of gas or the sulfur out of diesel. There will be lots of noise about it and folks concocting ethanol removers/filters but in the end all we will have is a cleaner air and a cleaner fuel tank. While I do not relish having to clean my tank before I make the change over I recognize that many boating accidents have happened because of dirt in the fuel tank. It would be worth it to have the piece of mind a clean tank would bring.
Bill you got some of it right.
Gasoline injectors are opened electrically, diesel injectors are popit valves that open and close in responce to pressure. The injector pump puts out a couple of thousand psi in impulses, that is rather heavier loading than the pressure in a gasoline system. In a diesel system the fuel side of the pump and the injectors are lubricated by the fuel.
Gasoline injectors are opened electrically, diesel injectors are popit valves that open and close in responce to pressure. The injector pump puts out a couple of thousand psi in impulses, that is rather heavier loading than the pressure in a gasoline system. In a diesel system the fuel side of the pump and the injectors are lubricated by the fuel.
Ah Ha! I have you!
Don't you know that in the service of the king you must always choose the lesser of two weevils? There is a big difference between the PSI at the injector valve piston head and the PSI at the bearings. PSI is not load. sic 100000000000000 PSI time 0.00000000000001 in^2 is only 1 lb. A light coating of heavy oil applied by hand during assembly would do for such a pump. Injectors are much more sensative to grit than lubrication failures. In fact in all my years as an auto mechanic I don't recall one single instance of pump lubrication failure. Lots and lots of grit related failures however. My point in comparing gas ans diesel injectors is to say that they have similar lubrication issues because they have similar working loads. The injector valve sees lots of pressure on the piston side where the only load is between the valve and return spring. The valve and spring don't move relative to each other so no friction and no need for lubrication. The valve does slide in its guide but there the forces are not pushing the valve against the slide (it just slides) so once again not a lot of load and not a lot of lubrication needed. A 1/16' piston pushing 10000 lb only requires 30 lb on the end of the piston "rod"!!! Ain't math great!
Don't you know that in the service of the king you must always choose the lesser of two weevils? There is a big difference between the PSI at the injector valve piston head and the PSI at the bearings. PSI is not load. sic 100000000000000 PSI time 0.00000000000001 in^2 is only 1 lb. A light coating of heavy oil applied by hand during assembly would do for such a pump. Injectors are much more sensative to grit than lubrication failures. In fact in all my years as an auto mechanic I don't recall one single instance of pump lubrication failure. Lots and lots of grit related failures however. My point in comparing gas ans diesel injectors is to say that they have similar lubrication issues because they have similar working loads. The injector valve sees lots of pressure on the piston side where the only load is between the valve and return spring. The valve and spring don't move relative to each other so no friction and no need for lubrication. The valve does slide in its guide but there the forces are not pushing the valve against the slide (it just slides) so once again not a lot of load and not a lot of lubrication needed. A 1/16' piston pushing 10000 lb only requires 30 lb on the end of the piston "rod"!!! Ain't math great!
oops type
A 1/16'diameter piston pushing 10000 PSI only requires 30 lb on the end of the piston "rod"
A 1/16'diameter piston pushing 10000 PSI only requires 30 lb on the end of the piston "rod"
99.5% vs 0.5%
Bill, you might be on what somefolks refer to as a "bunny trail". There ARE VERY REAL issues for boaters using fuel with ethanol. Check out this link from Boat US: http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/ethanol.asp ethanol breaks down fiberglass fuel tanks fuel filters clog more frequently (possibly only during the initial periods of usage, but boats frequently don't cycle through as much fuel as auto's and trucks. The folks dreaming up ethanol requirements aren't too interested in the affect it could/does have on the super small portion of the user base - hence my subject line above: a huge portion of the fuel produced/consumed is used for automobiles/trucks, a very small portion for boats. Other fuel users that can't stand to have "funny stuff" done to their fuel are light airplane owners. Avgas - which doesn't contain ethanol and has slightly higher octane than regualar "pump gas" is produced and available, but at quite a premium. Here's the biggest reason to be wary of E-diesel for you sailboat: E-diesel, like gasoline, is a class 1 flammable liguid! Boat US is conducting a test of biodiesel and E-diesel in fiberglass tanks to determine if either is as corrosive as gasoline with ethanol is to that type of tank. All my knowledge of this subject comes from the same Seaworthy article mentioned in the orginal post. Good Luck! Tim Brogan April IV C350 #68 Seattle
Bill, you might be on what somefolks refer to as a "bunny trail". There ARE VERY REAL issues for boaters using fuel with ethanol. Check out this link from Boat US: http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/ethanol.asp ethanol breaks down fiberglass fuel tanks fuel filters clog more frequently (possibly only during the initial periods of usage, but boats frequently don't cycle through as much fuel as auto's and trucks. The folks dreaming up ethanol requirements aren't too interested in the affect it could/does have on the super small portion of the user base - hence my subject line above: a huge portion of the fuel produced/consumed is used for automobiles/trucks, a very small portion for boats. Other fuel users that can't stand to have "funny stuff" done to their fuel are light airplane owners. Avgas - which doesn't contain ethanol and has slightly higher octane than regualar "pump gas" is produced and available, but at quite a premium. Here's the biggest reason to be wary of E-diesel for you sailboat: E-diesel, like gasoline, is a class 1 flammable liguid! Boat US is conducting a test of biodiesel and E-diesel in fiberglass tanks to determine if either is as corrosive as gasoline with ethanol is to that type of tank. All my knowledge of this subject comes from the same Seaworthy article mentioned in the orginal post. Good Luck! Tim Brogan April IV C350 #68 Seattle
Soooo what you are saying is
the by putting a diesel engine in a boat it somehow changes it so that the fuel that works in land engine makes it malfunction? I don't get it. I'll grant you that fiberglass tanks and ethanol might have issues as will the rubber hoses and some metal fuel parts. With the exception of the fiberglass tank these issues also occur in land based engines. As for being a class 1 flammable fuel, that sounds like a procedural thing to me. So I don't ash my cigarettes around the fuel vent. I noticed that my car runs on gas and I have not managed to blow myself up yet. I will note that all the stuff I have read has not specifically said ethanol in diesel but has said ethanol in gas. Even Warren's initial post only implies diesel from the title. The body is clearly talking about gas as is the link you posted. I really think there is a phobia to change going on about this subject.
the by putting a diesel engine in a boat it somehow changes it so that the fuel that works in land engine makes it malfunction? I don't get it. I'll grant you that fiberglass tanks and ethanol might have issues as will the rubber hoses and some metal fuel parts. With the exception of the fiberglass tank these issues also occur in land based engines. As for being a class 1 flammable fuel, that sounds like a procedural thing to me. So I don't ash my cigarettes around the fuel vent. I noticed that my car runs on gas and I have not managed to blow myself up yet. I will note that all the stuff I have read has not specifically said ethanol in diesel but has said ethanol in gas. Even Warren's initial post only implies diesel from the title. The body is clearly talking about gas as is the link you posted. I really think there is a phobia to change going on about this subject.
Why is water soluble bad?
you put ethanol in your gas tank in winter to "dry up" the moisture in the gas so you don't get fuel line freeze up. Ethanol suspends the water and takes it out of your tank. If you have a metal tank this would be good news. Now I suppose that if you put your garden hose in you fuel port you would have a problem but I'd hardly blame that on the ethanol. How would water get into my tank just from using fuel with ethanol in it?
you put ethanol in your gas tank in winter to "dry up" the moisture in the gas so you don't get fuel line freeze up. Ethanol suspends the water and takes it out of your tank. If you have a metal tank this would be good news. Now I suppose that if you put your garden hose in you fuel port you would have a problem but I'd hardly blame that on the ethanol. How would water get into my tank just from using fuel with ethanol in it?
The stuff you use to "dry up" gas
is iso-propanol...not Ethanol. The iso-propanol/water mixture becomes flammable, and gets burned with everything else in your tank. Ethanol is (IMHO) not good for any engine. Because of it's low vapour pressure (and hence; volatility), and "solvent like" properties, it does a number on o-rings and seals.
is iso-propanol...not Ethanol. The iso-propanol/water mixture becomes flammable, and gets burned with everything else in your tank. Ethanol is (IMHO) not good for any engine. Because of it's low vapour pressure (and hence; volatility), and "solvent like" properties, it does a number on o-rings and seals.
An interesting thread
This has kind of slipped away from the origional thread, and continues to be a little off subject. I don't want to start a pissing contest, and am not going to name names or specifics, but a couple of these posts are just flat wrong. But don't see how they can be harmful, so will just nothing. I am a little more than a fair hand with engines, and used to buid race motors for a living, but the fact is that I do not know enough about this subject to post an opinion, one way or another. Kind of suspect that when it gets right down to it, some others who are posting on this subject are in the same boat as I am.
This has kind of slipped away from the origional thread, and continues to be a little off subject. I don't want to start a pissing contest, and am not going to name names or specifics, but a couple of these posts are just flat wrong. But don't see how they can be harmful, so will just nothing. I am a little more than a fair hand with engines, and used to buid race motors for a living, but the fact is that I do not know enough about this subject to post an opinion, one way or another. Kind of suspect that when it gets right down to it, some others who are posting on this subject are in the same boat as I am.
I just checked a bottle gasoline dryer and it
happens to be methanol, a bottle of rubbing alcohol in the bathroom is isopropyl alcohol, two bottles of bourbon, one of scotch, one of gin all contain ethanol. My car is good to me and I guess it deserves a little nip now and then.
My diesel is supposed to be fed automotive diesel so that's what it gets and so far there have been no complaints.
happens to be methanol, a bottle of rubbing alcohol in the bathroom is isopropyl alcohol, two bottles of bourbon, one of scotch, one of gin all contain ethanol. My car is good to me and I guess it deserves a little nip now and then.
My diesel is supposed to be fed automotive diesel so that's what it gets and so far there have been no complaints.
Zaphro, you have just demonstrated one of the
largest problems that exist on this forum. In my post in response to Warren I posted a cut and paste concerning a test being run in Manitoba with ethanol modified diesel fuel. Apparently you didn't read that one.
largest problems that exist on this forum. In my post in response to Warren I posted a cut and paste concerning a test being run in Manitoba with ethanol modified diesel fuel. Apparently you didn't read that one.
There's a simple solution if
you want to mitigate the effects of ethanol in Diesel. Buy 5 gallon buckets of canola oil from your big box store. About the same price as diesel here. Add up to 1/3 canola to your diesel. Lubes the pump and everything else, lowers emissions, smells really cool as you pull away from the dock, and you earn greenhouse gas credits.
you want to mitigate the effects of ethanol in Diesel. Buy 5 gallon buckets of canola oil from your big box store. About the same price as diesel here. Add up to 1/3 canola to your diesel. Lubes the pump and everything else, lowers emissions, smells really cool as you pull away from the dock, and you earn greenhouse gas credits.
Funny dimension
Remember all those arguments about condensation in the tank, remove the fuel over winter, don't worry about it (with supporting calculations), 1/2 tank, additives, whatever? In the first paragraph of the Seaworthy article is the caution "It [ethanol] also has the potential to attract water through the tank's vent and separate itself from the gasoline. [...] ethanol would then sink to the bottom of the tank and could damage the engine ..." So you've got that to worry about too, or not, depending on your viewpoint.
Remember all those arguments about condensation in the tank, remove the fuel over winter, don't worry about it (with supporting calculations), 1/2 tank, additives, whatever? In the first paragraph of the Seaworthy article is the caution "It [ethanol] also has the potential to attract water through the tank's vent and separate itself from the gasoline. [...] ethanol would then sink to the bottom of the tank and could damage the engine ..." So you've got that to worry about too, or not, depending on your viewpoint.
There Are Types, Then There Are Typos
Bill Roosa wrote: *** *** *** A 1/16' diameter piston (meaning one-sixteenth of a foot diameter: seems an odd measuring system) *** *** *** Did you actually mean 1/16" (one sixteenth of an inch?) Jeff
Bill Roosa wrote: *** *** *** A 1/16' diameter piston (meaning one-sixteenth of a foot diameter: seems an odd measuring system) *** *** *** Did you actually mean 1/16" (one sixteenth of an inch?) Jeff
well I read it Ross
I didn't see that they said any thing in your cut and paste that indicated that ethanol in diesel was a bad thing. That is why I didn't reference it. I've used E95 in my suburban. It is designed to use ethanol and while the gas mileage does go down she does have a fruity whiskey smell to the exhaust. When I run it in my Cadi (instead of high test) she runs like a top. ABSOLUTELY NO pint or knock. When I run high test she will ping when lightly loaded. I love the stuff! Gas dryer methanol or ethanol it does not really matter. Both will mix with my coke. ;-) It suspends the water and allows it to be sucked into the engine. I'm still wondering how being water soluble would cause problems in my tank or engine.
I didn't see that they said any thing in your cut and paste that indicated that ethanol in diesel was a bad thing. That is why I didn't reference it. I've used E95 in my suburban. It is designed to use ethanol and while the gas mileage does go down she does have a fruity whiskey smell to the exhaust. When I run it in my Cadi (instead of high test) she runs like a top. ABSOLUTELY NO pint or knock. When I run high test she will ping when lightly loaded. I love the stuff! Gas dryer methanol or ethanol it does not really matter. Both will mix with my coke. ;-) It suspends the water and allows it to be sucked into the engine. I'm still wondering how being water soluble would cause problems in my tank or engine.
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