The mainsail on my boat has a dutchman topping lift system. I have never seen one of these. I tried putting it all together per the owners manual for the system, and it seems to work ok. I'm not convinced I am going to like it though. My guess is that you have to release the system from the topping lift connection, and catch the end of the boom with the topping lift every time you want to put the mainsail cover on. Anyone else using this system? If so, how do you like using it?
Dutchman Mainsail System
- Thread starter gulfsailorp323
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Slack the Dutchman Lines
Simply slack the dutchman lines (the nylon lines) enough so that they don't interfere with the closure of the mainsail cover. The topping lift line should have a continuous line arrangement such that you can adjust the tension on the dutchman lines without changing the tension on the topping lift line. Take off the mainsail cover, tension the dutchman line to their "normal" (in use) position, raise sail, have fun sailing, lower sail, adjust tension on dutchman line to extreme slack, reinstall mainsail cover. Others will suggest to keep the dutchman lines tensioned all the time and make some sort of "rube goldberg" mainsail cover with a bunch of zippers all over the place. The method I describe works a whole lot easier. Good Luck! Tim Brogan April IV C350 #68 Seattle
Simply slack the dutchman lines (the nylon lines) enough so that they don't interfere with the closure of the mainsail cover. The topping lift line should have a continuous line arrangement such that you can adjust the tension on the dutchman lines without changing the tension on the topping lift line. Take off the mainsail cover, tension the dutchman line to their "normal" (in use) position, raise sail, have fun sailing, lower sail, adjust tension on dutchman line to extreme slack, reinstall mainsail cover. Others will suggest to keep the dutchman lines tensioned all the time and make some sort of "rube goldberg" mainsail cover with a bunch of zippers all over the place. The method I describe works a whole lot easier. Good Luck! Tim Brogan April IV C350 #68 Seattle
Tim is correct, however I have one of Rube's
covers and it's not too bad. Cover actually has 2 slits that each close with 2 of those top fasteners that rotate 90 degrees. Works well really and I believe it to be original to the '94 boat. I've had it rebuilt & new logos sewn on and it looks like new.
covers and it's not too bad. Cover actually has 2 slits that each close with 2 of those top fasteners that rotate 90 degrees. Works well really and I believe it to be original to the '94 boat. I've had it rebuilt & new logos sewn on and it looks like new.
Dutchman
I use mine (on a C320) like Tim, except when the sail is raised, I loosen the filament lines. Then when I'm ready to lower the sail, I tighten them. If left tight, my lines sometimes effect sail shape. Also, gulfsailorp323, if your system is new, you have to 'train' the sail so it flakes the same way everytime you lower it.
I use mine (on a C320) like Tim, except when the sail is raised, I loosen the filament lines. Then when I'm ready to lower the sail, I tighten them. If left tight, my lines sometimes effect sail shape. Also, gulfsailorp323, if your system is new, you have to 'train' the sail so it flakes the same way everytime you lower it.
dutchman
i had a local sail maker - doyle on city island - make a sail cover with slits and zippers in it and it works just fine. the old sail cover had rotted over the years. it envolves a small step more in using the cover but l really like having the dutchman.
i had a local sail maker - doyle on city island - make a sail cover with slits and zippers in it and it works just fine. the old sail cover had rotted over the years. it envolves a small step more in using the cover but l really like having the dutchman.
New main cover
I just received my new main cover w/out slits for the Dutchman. I have the Dutchman, but prefer a standard cover. I plan doing it the way Tim describes. Have not been real satisfied with the Dutchman while under sail, too much tension in the filaments affects sail shape, can never seem to get them loose enough, have not yet mastered technique. My main halyard seems to slip, maybe rope clutches worn out or halyard needs replacing, anyway, next upgrade will be rigid vang.
I just received my new main cover w/out slits for the Dutchman. I have the Dutchman, but prefer a standard cover. I plan doing it the way Tim describes. Have not been real satisfied with the Dutchman while under sail, too much tension in the filaments affects sail shape, can never seem to get them loose enough, have not yet mastered technique. My main halyard seems to slip, maybe rope clutches worn out or halyard needs replacing, anyway, next upgrade will be rigid vang.
There should be a litle slack in the mono
lines so they don't interfere and the CTL (continous topping lift) should also have some slack when sail is raised. The black blocks that anchor the tops of the mono lines must also be aligned straight up or slightly forward of plumb. Gotta kind of play with it some to figure the adjustment, I'm real happy about how well it works in windy conditions.
lines so they don't interfere and the CTL (continous topping lift) should also have some slack when sail is raised. The black blocks that anchor the tops of the mono lines must also be aligned straight up or slightly forward of plumb. Gotta kind of play with it some to figure the adjustment, I'm real happy about how well it works in windy conditions.
Two rules for the Dutchman
Its all been covered by previous posts - however I will give the two rules that I keep in mind. 1. The Dutchman filament lines should be slack except when dropping the main sail. ( including when dropping the main during the act of reefing) 2. The Dutchman lines should be adjusted such that when the lines are tight they slope slightly forward from their attachment points at the boom (as Calf Ted said). By the way, as Tim said you never detach the continous topping lift. You just rotate the continuous loop to slack the filament lines to get the sail cover over top - the boom does not drop appreciably (the continuous loop should not be overly long.- lonly a little slack in the line). However I don't agree with everything that Tim said, I have two zippers in my sail cover and it works just fine although they are not necessary.
Its all been covered by previous posts - however I will give the two rules that I keep in mind. 1. The Dutchman filament lines should be slack except when dropping the main sail. ( including when dropping the main during the act of reefing) 2. The Dutchman lines should be adjusted such that when the lines are tight they slope slightly forward from their attachment points at the boom (as Calf Ted said). By the way, as Tim said you never detach the continous topping lift. You just rotate the continuous loop to slack the filament lines to get the sail cover over top - the boom does not drop appreciably (the continuous loop should not be overly long.- lonly a little slack in the line). However I don't agree with everything that Tim said, I have two zippers in my sail cover and it works just fine although they are not necessary.
dutchman rules?
where are these rules from? i've had the dutchman people from connecticut on my boat and they never said a word about keeping any slack on the lines, which i never do. i know they saw the tautness because they watched as we raised and lowered the main.
where are these rules from? i've had the dutchman people from connecticut on my boat and they never said a word about keeping any slack on the lines, which i never do. i know they saw the tautness because they watched as we raised and lowered the main.
Let off topping lift
After the main is raised I always let off the topping lift to reduce chafe to the sail. This also provides slack to the dutchman lines while sailing. Before dropping the main tighten the topping lift again and you never have to adjust the continuous loop. My mainsail cover also has the 2 zippers for the dutchman lines but it's no harder to put on than a "standard" cover Jim
After the main is raised I always let off the topping lift to reduce chafe to the sail. This also provides slack to the dutchman lines while sailing. Before dropping the main tighten the topping lift again and you never have to adjust the continuous loop. My mainsail cover also has the 2 zippers for the dutchman lines but it's no harder to put on than a "standard" cover Jim
Where the Dutchman rules come from
The rules come from experience and logic. Dutchman infer them but they really should print them at the top of their literature. The only purpose for the Dutchman is to keep the main sail organized when you drop it (or in the course of reefing). To keep it organized you keep the lines tight when dropping. Any other time it is a disadvantage to have the Dutchman lines tight as it makes it harder to raise the main sail as it adds friction and interferes with sail shape when sailing To reitereate, why have it tight when it does no good and may cause problems? I tighten them before I drop the main, once the sail is down I tie it with sail stops and slack the Dutchman lines until the next time I drop the mainsail. You can certainly slack the Dutchman lines by slacking the topping lift, however that drops the boom and that is unecessary (but I agree that it may sometimes be faster and easier to slack the topping lift to slack the Dutchman lines). This depends on how things are set up on your boat).
The rules come from experience and logic. Dutchman infer them but they really should print them at the top of their literature. The only purpose for the Dutchman is to keep the main sail organized when you drop it (or in the course of reefing). To keep it organized you keep the lines tight when dropping. Any other time it is a disadvantage to have the Dutchman lines tight as it makes it harder to raise the main sail as it adds friction and interferes with sail shape when sailing To reitereate, why have it tight when it does no good and may cause problems? I tighten them before I drop the main, once the sail is down I tie it with sail stops and slack the Dutchman lines until the next time I drop the mainsail. You can certainly slack the Dutchman lines by slacking the topping lift, however that drops the boom and that is unecessary (but I agree that it may sometimes be faster and easier to slack the topping lift to slack the Dutchman lines). This depends on how things are set up on your boat).
Thanks for the help!
All the replies have been helpful in my understanding how the dutchman is supposed to work. Never thought about simply rotating the continuos loop or slacking the control lines to allow the mainsail cover to fit. I'll give those a try.
All the replies have been helpful in my understanding how the dutchman is supposed to work. Never thought about simply rotating the continuos loop or slacking the control lines to allow the mainsail cover to fit. I'll give those a try.
dutchman rules?
let's make this fun. you show me how a dutchman line through the main changes its shape and i buy you say three cases of heineken, ok?
let's make this fun. you show me how a dutchman line through the main changes its shape and i buy you say three cases of heineken, ok?
Send the beer to ...
no ... we have beer here.
Here's your test: Sail on a reach with the boom out and twist in the sail. If there is not enough slack in the Dutchman lines, they will prevent the leech from twisting off. In light air, boats that don't have a rigid vang to support the boom use the topping lift to hold the boom up so the leech can twist. With a tight topping lift the Dutchman lines are also tight, ruining sail shape. From the Dutchman Manual: "The topping lift must be slack while sailing, to allow the leach of the sail to twist off. When the topping lift is slack, the lines will not cause chafe or restrict the sail. You may want to give a tug on the control lines after you let off the topping lift."
no ... we have beer here.
Here's your test: Sail on a reach with the boom out and twist in the sail. If there is not enough slack in the Dutchman lines, they will prevent the leech from twisting off. In light air, boats that don't have a rigid vang to support the boom use the topping lift to hold the boom up so the leech can twist. With a tight topping lift the Dutchman lines are also tight, ruining sail shape. From the Dutchman Manual: "The topping lift must be slack while sailing, to allow the leach of the sail to twist off. When the topping lift is slack, the lines will not cause chafe or restrict the sail. You may want to give a tug on the control lines after you let off the topping lift."
Three cases of Heiniken!
Nice touch - a Dutch beer. Whether I can explain the sail distortion or not it is a fact that it happens. A couple of others on this list have experienced it and that is why I replied with my two simple rules. (I agree that the rules only work with a proper installation.) Using a simple view, if you stretch a taught line between your boom through your sail to your topping lift it affects twist - particularly on the tack on which the lines come around the back edge of the leech to the topping lift. Anticipating your argument, I agree that as you raise your sail the boom normally lifts some which automatically slacks the topping lift and as a result the Dutchman lines. However this is not enough depending on the built in cut of the sail, the roach and twist. The Dutchman Instructions actually suggest this is enough - however it is not true in every situation. One has to significantly slack the topping lift once the main is up so that it matches the twist of the leech of the main which hangs out much further than the boom and topping lift to which it is fastned in some conditions. My simple no brainer is to always have the system slacked 8 or 10" by using the continuous loop except when dropping (or reefing) the sail. .This is a 36' foot boat - with a smaller sail the distance would be different. (you don't want to slack it too much as it changes the angles of the lines where they go through the sail fairleads (the holes in the sail).) When all is said and done, there is absolutely no reason to keep the Dutchman system tight unless you are pointing into the wind ready to drop the sail. It is far easier on the system and sail to slack it off and it avoids sail distortion. OOPs - didn't see Moody's reply - as usual he has provided a clear explanation - if you don't understand mine read his again. I am trying to say the same thing he has already done.
Nice touch - a Dutch beer. Whether I can explain the sail distortion or not it is a fact that it happens. A couple of others on this list have experienced it and that is why I replied with my two simple rules. (I agree that the rules only work with a proper installation.) Using a simple view, if you stretch a taught line between your boom through your sail to your topping lift it affects twist - particularly on the tack on which the lines come around the back edge of the leech to the topping lift. Anticipating your argument, I agree that as you raise your sail the boom normally lifts some which automatically slacks the topping lift and as a result the Dutchman lines. However this is not enough depending on the built in cut of the sail, the roach and twist. The Dutchman Instructions actually suggest this is enough - however it is not true in every situation. One has to significantly slack the topping lift once the main is up so that it matches the twist of the leech of the main which hangs out much further than the boom and topping lift to which it is fastned in some conditions. My simple no brainer is to always have the system slacked 8 or 10" by using the continuous loop except when dropping (or reefing) the sail. .This is a 36' foot boat - with a smaller sail the distance would be different. (you don't want to slack it too much as it changes the angles of the lines where they go through the sail fairleads (the holes in the sail).) When all is said and done, there is absolutely no reason to keep the Dutchman system tight unless you are pointing into the wind ready to drop the sail. It is far easier on the system and sail to slack it off and it avoids sail distortion. OOPs - didn't see Moody's reply - as usual he has provided a clear explanation - if you don't understand mine read his again. I am trying to say the same thing he has already done.
dutchman rules?
does it really say leach and not leech? are you confusing the topping lift and the dutchman control iine? i say again, when the dutchman folk were on my boat under sail they said nary a word about my taut monofilaments.
does it really say leach and not leech? are you confusing the topping lift and the dutchman control iine? i say again, when the dutchman folk were on my boat under sail they said nary a word about my taut monofilaments.
Topping lift
In the systems that I have and have commonly seen the Dutchman control line is the bottom 3/4 of the topping lift. As far as whether you want to slack it off that is your decision and is based on what you experience on your boat. My experience and that of others is that tight Dutchman lines affect sail shape in some circumstances. See comments of several people in this thread. I very much like the system and would recommend it to anyone. I just follow my rules which are simple and avoid problems. There is no reason to have the filament lines through the sail tight unless you are dropping the sail.
In the systems that I have and have commonly seen the Dutchman control line is the bottom 3/4 of the topping lift. As far as whether you want to slack it off that is your decision and is based on what you experience on your boat. My experience and that of others is that tight Dutchman lines affect sail shape in some circumstances. See comments of several people in this thread. I very much like the system and would recommend it to anyone. I just follow my rules which are simple and avoid problems. There is no reason to have the filament lines through the sail tight unless you are dropping the sail.
Raising and lowering topping lift
My 84 C30 has the topping lift line exiting the mast about chest height and cleating off just below that. I have new mast and sails with Dutchman. I find it a pain to go to the mast to tighten the topping lift. Has anyone routed the topping lift line back to the cockpit? Also taking the slack out of the lift to tighten the mono when ready to drop the main is more of an acrobatic act when the bimini is up, in the summer, bimini is off the rest of the year.
My 84 C30 has the topping lift line exiting the mast about chest height and cleating off just below that. I have new mast and sails with Dutchman. I find it a pain to go to the mast to tighten the topping lift. Has anyone routed the topping lift line back to the cockpit? Also taking the slack out of the lift to tighten the mono when ready to drop the main is more of an acrobatic act when the bimini is up, in the summer, bimini is off the rest of the year.
Link Information
This link will help explain. I have found it is important to slack the topping lift during sailing (I do it when the main is about 1/2 way up). If there is any stress on the sail after freeing the topping lift, I rotate the In preparing to drop the continous loop line downward. When preparing to drop the main, I first snug the topping lift and then rotate the loop line into position, with the top attachments slightly forward of vertical. Once the sail is down and ties are in place, I rotate the loop line downward to slack for the sail cover (if you have cut-outs for the lines this is not necessary). I can then adjust the topping lift and mainsheet to keep the sailcover from chafing my dodger. Hope this helps. http://mvbinfo.com/dp_03_SF_install_info.htmls
This link will help explain. I have found it is important to slack the topping lift during sailing (I do it when the main is about 1/2 way up). If there is any stress on the sail after freeing the topping lift, I rotate the In preparing to drop the continous loop line downward. When preparing to drop the main, I first snug the topping lift and then rotate the loop line into position, with the top attachments slightly forward of vertical. Once the sail is down and ties are in place, I rotate the loop line downward to slack for the sail cover (if you have cut-outs for the lines this is not necessary). I can then adjust the topping lift and mainsheet to keep the sailcover from chafing my dodger. Hope this helps. http://mvbinfo.com/dp_03_SF_install_info.htmls
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