After racking up lotsa miles on the pickup, and crawling up lotsa ladders, I’m finding some possibilities, and looking for some opinions. Originally I wanted something on a trailer but that really limits the choices. I’m interested in cruising and comfort, or rather she is, and I’m wondering what you all think of the following: 25’ Catalina Swing Keel (’79) 25’ Catalina Fixed Keel (’85) 24’ C&C Niagara (’77) 24’ J-Boat (’79) Are the last two more performance-oriented? Is there much handling difference between the swing and fixed keel Catalinas? Also, surveying. Is it a must-do, even if one’s budget is only 6-9K? I read a couple books, crawled around looking at this and that, tapped on the hull, looked for cracks, but do I really know what I’m looking for, or at? Don’t think so. How do you go about finding the best surveyor?
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Boat Selection
The J/24 was designed as a racer therefore it lacks some of the amenities of a cruiser. I'm not familiar with the Niagara. Of the two Catalinas, the swing keel version would be much easier to trailer if that's your goal. Since neither boat is performance oriented the sailing characteristics are probably minimal. The fixed keel does have its advantages but probably not as a trailer sailor. BoatUS can provide a list of surveyors in your area. Some may have designations which are helpful but necessarily a guarantee of a good survey. Asking other boat owners in your area might provide better information. Even though your finances are limited, a couple of hundred dollars for a survey is a good investment.
The J/24 was designed as a racer therefore it lacks some of the amenities of a cruiser. I'm not familiar with the Niagara. Of the two Catalinas, the swing keel version would be much easier to trailer if that's your goal. Since neither boat is performance oriented the sailing characteristics are probably minimal. The fixed keel does have its advantages but probably not as a trailer sailor. BoatUS can provide a list of surveyors in your area. Some may have designations which are helpful but necessarily a guarantee of a good survey. Asking other boat owners in your area might provide better information. Even though your finances are limited, a couple of hundred dollars for a survey is a good investment.
a little of this and a little of that...
ok.first, you can trailor the Catalina's sucessfully, that being said, if you are looking for a catalina 25, go with the fixed keel. It points SO MUCH better than ther swing keel, and I have seen first hand, the heavy Ct 25's swing keel do just that, after losing the keel wire, swing back up and puncture the keel's compartment, sinking the boat in 6 ft of water. The C&C and the J24 are good performers but lack anything close to comfort down below. Hve you donw a yachtworld boat search?? maybe a way to help you decide what type of boat you're looking for. Type in all the parameter's you want and see what comes up. I just did a quick search using $9000 as the high price and boats between 23 and 25 ft. and in the Great Lakes region and came up with 67 boats for sale. MAybe worth a peek Best of luck
ok.first, you can trailor the Catalina's sucessfully, that being said, if you are looking for a catalina 25, go with the fixed keel. It points SO MUCH better than ther swing keel, and I have seen first hand, the heavy Ct 25's swing keel do just that, after losing the keel wire, swing back up and puncture the keel's compartment, sinking the boat in 6 ft of water. The C&C and the J24 are good performers but lack anything close to comfort down below. Hve you donw a yachtworld boat search?? maybe a way to help you decide what type of boat you're looking for. Type in all the parameter's you want and see what comes up. I just did a quick search using $9000 as the high price and boats between 23 and 25 ft. and in the Great Lakes region and came up with 67 boats for sale. MAybe worth a peek Best of luck
survey optional ( kinda)
what ive seen so far on the performance vs. comfort is true. look for a marina in your area that will allow you to keep the boat on the trailer at the marina ( for a fee but much less than a slip) We have one marina here in Muskegon like that. And it allows you to keep the mast up, ( no stepping each time). that said go with Cat 25 fixed keel. On the survey side, while the 200-500 dollars seems steep, if your finacing or planning to insure it ( a must) a survey might be required. Not many companies will insure that old of a boat without a value survey. Hope this helps
what ive seen so far on the performance vs. comfort is true. look for a marina in your area that will allow you to keep the boat on the trailer at the marina ( for a fee but much less than a slip) We have one marina here in Muskegon like that. And it allows you to keep the mast up, ( no stepping each time). that said go with Cat 25 fixed keel. On the survey side, while the 200-500 dollars seems steep, if your finacing or planning to insure it ( a must) a survey might be required. Not many companies will insure that old of a boat without a value survey. Hope this helps
Is trailerability essential?
If it is, I'd opt for the swing keel Catalina 25 over the fixed keel C25 or the J24 (I'm not familiar with the Niagra. If trailering isn't a necessity, you might want to switch gears a bit and look at some older Catalina 27s. You should be able to find one that fits your budget and you'll be way ahead in terms of both comfort and sailing performance vs. the Catalina 25. I have a friend here in Northern CA who bought one for $2,000! It needed some TLC but looks great now. Even though it's a bit bigger than the 25, it's a good choice for a first boat. If you decide to look at the 27s, you should check the archives for postings on outboards vs. inboards. There are advantages and disadvantages to each. My personal preference, especially in an older boat would be to go the outboard route. They sail faster and are less expensive to replace or repair.
If it is, I'd opt for the swing keel Catalina 25 over the fixed keel C25 or the J24 (I'm not familiar with the Niagra. If trailering isn't a necessity, you might want to switch gears a bit and look at some older Catalina 27s. You should be able to find one that fits your budget and you'll be way ahead in terms of both comfort and sailing performance vs. the Catalina 25. I have a friend here in Northern CA who bought one for $2,000! It needed some TLC but looks great now. Even though it's a bit bigger than the 25, it's a good choice for a first boat. If you decide to look at the 27s, you should check the archives for postings on outboards vs. inboards. There are advantages and disadvantages to each. My personal preference, especially in an older boat would be to go the outboard route. They sail faster and are less expensive to replace or repair.
Survey maybe not worth the money
The last boat that I bought had a survey and he really didn't help me. Some things that he should have brought to my attention he didn't mention. Most things that he did mention I had already noticed. You definately need to have the boat out of the water for an inspection. I almost bought a Cape Dory 270 that the owner didn't want me to have surveyed. Then I put on my snorkle and swam under the hull. Blisters everywhere!!!! Would have cost thousands to repair!!!! I ran away from that deal. It was close as I really went under the boat just to see how clean the bottom was...never expected blisters. It all depends upon the surveyor and the cost of the boat. You decide.
The last boat that I bought had a survey and he really didn't help me. Some things that he should have brought to my attention he didn't mention. Most things that he did mention I had already noticed. You definately need to have the boat out of the water for an inspection. I almost bought a Cape Dory 270 that the owner didn't want me to have surveyed. Then I put on my snorkle and swam under the hull. Blisters everywhere!!!! Would have cost thousands to repair!!!! I ran away from that deal. It was close as I really went under the boat just to see how clean the bottom was...never expected blisters. It all depends upon the surveyor and the cost of the boat. You decide.
Ignorance is bliss
Whoo. The more you know, the more you know that you don't know. Thanks for the ideas all. I'm leaning more towards throwing the whole trailer idea out the window. I planned on a permanent summer mooring anyway, but it seemed like a good idea to bring her home for the off-season, save the winter storage costs, plus it wouldn't matter where the seller was located. But whaddya do when your perfect boat is on the other side of the state? I had one individual guesstimate a cost of $800 for trucking it 3-4 hours away. I guess a good deal that's far away needs to be a REAL good deal.
Whoo. The more you know, the more you know that you don't know. Thanks for the ideas all. I'm leaning more towards throwing the whole trailer idea out the window. I planned on a permanent summer mooring anyway, but it seemed like a good idea to bring her home for the off-season, save the winter storage costs, plus it wouldn't matter where the seller was located. But whaddya do when your perfect boat is on the other side of the state? I had one individual guesstimate a cost of $800 for trucking it 3-4 hours away. I guess a good deal that's far away needs to be a REAL good deal.
C 25
If you want to trailer either one of the Catalinas, you'll need a rather stout tow vehicle. A fixed keel with trailer will be nearly 7,000 pounds. Also, the fixed keel is a lot less maintenance than the SK. Check: http://www.catalina25-250.org/forum/ One of the best forums around.
If you want to trailer either one of the Catalinas, you'll need a rather stout tow vehicle. A fixed keel with trailer will be nearly 7,000 pounds. Also, the fixed keel is a lot less maintenance than the SK. Check: http://www.catalina25-250.org/forum/ One of the best forums around.
Lugeman
Lugeman, I actually spent last Saturday afternoon in Muskegon. (Can I say Torresen's on here?) I've gone thru yachtworld and boattrader pretty thoroughly. Are there other avenues to explore? I was hoping to find something closer though (Lake Huron, Saginaw Bay). Muskegon is a 2-3 hr drive, and Tawas/Au Gres is half that. I could put up with it the first year though, and hopefully sail it to the east side late summer/early fall, if we know enough by then.
Lugeman, I actually spent last Saturday afternoon in Muskegon. (Can I say Torresen's on here?) I've gone thru yachtworld and boattrader pretty thoroughly. Are there other avenues to explore? I was hoping to find something closer though (Lake Huron, Saginaw Bay). Muskegon is a 2-3 hr drive, and Tawas/Au Gres is half that. I could put up with it the first year though, and hopefully sail it to the east side late summer/early fall, if we know enough by then.
general comments
Hello, A few comments in no particular order. 1. Swing keel boats: Unless you plan on trailering often, DO NOT get a swing keel boat. There are many disadvantages of swing keels - there is a lot of maintenance on the winch, cable, connectors, etc. The wire creates a humming sound as you sail (at least it does on the C22), if the cable breaks it can sink your boat. The only benefit (besides trailering) is if you hit bottom you can raise the keel and get off. Not worth it unless you trailer often. 2. Survey or not This depends on how much you know, how complicated the boat is, and how much risk are willing to take. I did not get my first boat surveyed (catalina 22). It had outboard motor, porta potty, no water system, no through hulls, and a real simple electrical system. I paid $5K for it, and I felt I could afford to risk that. I did get my second boat surveyed (Newport 28). It has diesel inboard, complete with propeller shaft, strut bearing, etc, complete water system with heater, pumps, drains, shower, a marine heard with holding tank and pumpout, complicated electrical system with multiple batteries, switches, bilge pumps, instruments, etc. I paid $15K for it, and I didn't want to take a bath on it if it had rotten decks, blistered hull, soggy rudder, or damaged keel. How much would does a survey cost by you? Around here (NY) the going rate is about $20 / foot, including sea trial and detailed report. My surveyor was excellent and I learned a lot about the boat: what was good, what was bad, what needed to be done immediately, what could wait until the end of the season. 3. Regarding boat sizes, think carefully about what you will be using the boat for. If you plan on sleeping on the boat, then stand up headroom, decent size berth, real bathroom, etc. willbe important. If you just day sail and rarely sleep over, then those things won't be as important. If you do plan on cruising, you will be on the boat for days at a time, and will encounter all sorts of weather conditions. In that case I think a bigger boat, something in the 27' range would be more appropriate. A 27 doesn't have to cost much more than a 25, but has real benefits. Good luck, Barry
Hello, A few comments in no particular order. 1. Swing keel boats: Unless you plan on trailering often, DO NOT get a swing keel boat. There are many disadvantages of swing keels - there is a lot of maintenance on the winch, cable, connectors, etc. The wire creates a humming sound as you sail (at least it does on the C22), if the cable breaks it can sink your boat. The only benefit (besides trailering) is if you hit bottom you can raise the keel and get off. Not worth it unless you trailer often. 2. Survey or not This depends on how much you know, how complicated the boat is, and how much risk are willing to take. I did not get my first boat surveyed (catalina 22). It had outboard motor, porta potty, no water system, no through hulls, and a real simple electrical system. I paid $5K for it, and I felt I could afford to risk that. I did get my second boat surveyed (Newport 28). It has diesel inboard, complete with propeller shaft, strut bearing, etc, complete water system with heater, pumps, drains, shower, a marine heard with holding tank and pumpout, complicated electrical system with multiple batteries, switches, bilge pumps, instruments, etc. I paid $15K for it, and I didn't want to take a bath on it if it had rotten decks, blistered hull, soggy rudder, or damaged keel. How much would does a survey cost by you? Around here (NY) the going rate is about $20 / foot, including sea trial and detailed report. My surveyor was excellent and I learned a lot about the boat: what was good, what was bad, what needed to be done immediately, what could wait until the end of the season. 3. Regarding boat sizes, think carefully about what you will be using the boat for. If you plan on sleeping on the boat, then stand up headroom, decent size berth, real bathroom, etc. willbe important. If you just day sail and rarely sleep over, then those things won't be as important. If you do plan on cruising, you will be on the boat for days at a time, and will encounter all sorts of weather conditions. In that case I think a bigger boat, something in the 27' range would be more appropriate. A 27 doesn't have to cost much more than a 25, but has real benefits. Good luck, Barry
Fixed keel for Great lakes
From your list on this post, I think your best choice is the Catalina 25 with fixed keel. If not that, look for something a little larger with a fixed keel. I think you mentioned that you are willing to spend the slip fees on Lake Huron. It's a BIG lake so don't go too small. You need to have a good survey done, for your safety and your girlfriends. All of Barry's comments are right on the mark. When I shopped for surveys, most were right around $20/ft. I had a chance to read the survey for a Cal 2-27 (that we missed out on). Being a rookie like you, it was the only survey I had seen and I was impressed by the level of detail. I was expecting something like it when I selected a surveyor that offered to do it for about half the going rate. I took it based on the broker's recommendation that it would be a good survey. I got a valid opinion that the boat is in sound condition and based on the time I spent with the gentleman (he was a retired boat builder that was in his early eighties), I was confident that he went over it very thoroughly. I just didn't get the detailed report that I was hoping for. In retrospect, I would have preferred the more detailed survey and spent more money for it. Where I sail, safety isn't nearly the factor that it is on Lake Huron. I've boated on all the Great Lakes and I would recommend that you take safety very seriously, which should lead you to making absolutely sure that the boat you choose is solid. Just MHO from a fellow newcomer to the marvelous world of sailing small cruisers!
From your list on this post, I think your best choice is the Catalina 25 with fixed keel. If not that, look for something a little larger with a fixed keel. I think you mentioned that you are willing to spend the slip fees on Lake Huron. It's a BIG lake so don't go too small. You need to have a good survey done, for your safety and your girlfriends. All of Barry's comments are right on the mark. When I shopped for surveys, most were right around $20/ft. I had a chance to read the survey for a Cal 2-27 (that we missed out on). Being a rookie like you, it was the only survey I had seen and I was impressed by the level of detail. I was expecting something like it when I selected a surveyor that offered to do it for about half the going rate. I took it based on the broker's recommendation that it would be a good survey. I got a valid opinion that the boat is in sound condition and based on the time I spent with the gentleman (he was a retired boat builder that was in his early eighties), I was confident that he went over it very thoroughly. I just didn't get the detailed report that I was hoping for. In retrospect, I would have preferred the more detailed survey and spent more money for it. Where I sail, safety isn't nearly the factor that it is on Lake Huron. I've boated on all the Great Lakes and I would recommend that you take safety very seriously, which should lead you to making absolutely sure that the boat you choose is solid. Just MHO from a fellow newcomer to the marvelous world of sailing small cruisers!
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