Dude, Where's My Electricity?

[ancientmariner]

So I'm getting ready for a month-long cruise. As we like to anchor in favourite spots for several days, I'm upgrading my wiring a bit, to ensure that I will get maximum charging from the new 130w. solar panel. House bank is two Trojan 130ah 12v, one year old (#1). I've just installed an older deep cycle battery as a spare (#2). The Victron monitor shows that both banks are charging properly on the Truecharge 10a charger, and everything wired to the batteries is working properly.

Unfortunately, the instrument panel is completely dead. I can't see that I have miswired or forgotten anything. I removed the battery selector (off, 1, 2, both) and found that when switched to either 1 or 2, I cannot get a test meter response from touching 1/ground posts or 2/ground posts, although I get a proper response from 1 or 2 and any other ground. So I'm thinking that the selector is faulty, and coincidentally quit when I disturbed it. But when I tried the engine starter, it worked fine on 1 or 2, (but not on off), as usual.

Now the only thing I can think of is that the original O'Day 1979 fuse panel, which I thought looked suspect 20 years ago when I bought the boat, is the culprit. I've been nursing it along, thinking to change all the wiring and the panel one day.

The back of the panel looks like regurgitated spaghetti, with a bit of rust thrown in. To try to trace the panel feed would be an exercise in futility, and, strangely, I can't see any positive battery connection which might lead me in the right direction.

Is it possible that the panel feed does not come directly from the batteries?

I have replaced any dubious fuses, but that would still not account for the whole panel being dead, unless the hidden (to me) feed has an in-line master fuse.

I don't mind scrapping the panel (it's past time) and replacing it with something cleaner and simpler, but tempus fugits, as those Romans were always saying, and I want to go cruising.
Logic tells me that the problem was more likely caused by something I did than the coincidence of the panel/wiring giving up the ghost at this time.

Any observations or explanations?

Thanks

 

[Stu Jackson]

Figure out where the power to the panel comes from and then trace it backwards from the cockpit panel to the down below electrical panel.

This is a parallel discussion:

read both pages, hope it helps

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,7033.0.html

Good luck.

 

[onecoolair]

So I'm getting ready for a month-long cruise. As we like to anchor in favourite spots for several days, I'm upgrading my wiring a bit, to ensure that I will get maximum charging from the new 130w. solar panel. House bank is two Trojan 130ah 12v, one year old (#1). I've just installed an older deep cycle battery as a spare (#2). The Victron monitor shows that both banks are charging properly on the Truecharge 10a charger, and everything wired to the batteries is working properly.

Unfortunately, the instrument panel is completely dead. I can't see that I have miswired or forgotten anything. I removed the battery selector (off, 1, 2, both) and found that when switched to either 1 or 2, I cannot get a test meter response from touching 1/ground posts or 2/ground posts, although I get a proper response from 1 or 2 and any other ground. So I'm thinking that the selector is faulty, and coincidentally quit when I disturbed it. But when I tried the engine starter, it worked fine on 1 or 2, (but not on off), as usual.

Now the only thing I can think of is that the original O'Day 1979 fuse panel, which I thought looked suspect 20 years ago when I bought the boat, is the culprit. I've been nursing it along, thinking to change all the wiring and the panel one day.

The back of the panel looks like regurgitated spaghetti, with a bit of rust thrown in. To try to trace the panel feed would be an exercise in futility, and, strangely, I can't see any positive battery connection which might lead me in the right direction.

Is it possible that the panel feed does not come directly from the batteries?

I have replaced any dubious fuses, but that would still not account for the whole panel being dead, unless the hidden (to me) feed has an in-line master fuse.

I don't mind scrapping the panel (it's past time) and replacing it with something cleaner and simpler, but tempus fugits, as those Romans were always saying, and I want to go cruising.
Logic tells me that the problem was more likely caused by something I did than the coincidence of the panel/wiring giving up the ghost at this time.

Any observations or explanations?

Thanks

Look at the back of your main battery cut off switch. On the c post there should be the main feed wire to your electrical panel . Trace that wire back to main panel. There should be a main breaker or fuse at panel that controls power to panel. Also find the main ground on the panel and trace it back to see if you have proper ground. Loss of ground to panel maybe all that has happened. While you were fiddling around with things. I have done that before.
Next...Never turn off engine key while engine is running. Could interupt alt. current back to battery or may stop the voltage load sensor from doing its job.. Check the back of alt. now if it has a built in self reg. there should be a two wire plug that goes back to the harness. Make sure it is still plugged into back of alt. One wire feeds the tach and the other is a voltage load sensor that tells alt reg what the battery voltage is and when the alt needs to juice the battery and how much. Sometimes when your fixing one thing another comes unplugged.

 

[Bob J.]

The positive DC panel feed on my sabre comes from a terminal off the ammeter/voltage guage, the negative goes to the batteries.

 

[jibes138]

Your panel should be fed from the 1-2-Both switch you say is installed. If the starter is working then you are getting juice to the switch. The switch does not need a ground it only controls whether the positive is allowed to be on or not. If you were running a voltmeter across two posts on the switch you would not get a reading since all posts are either positive or open circuits. Sounds like the wire feeding the positive to your panel is an open circuit, with your voltmeter check for a good ground at the panel to make sure it isn't the ground side. If that is OK it sounds like you are disconnected between the panel and the switch. Does your panel also have a master switch on it that needs to be on? Note below, all connections from the switch to the battery or other devices are for positive wires only.

 

[DeniseO30]

I had the same problem last year! 2 of the Original terminals were pulled out of the crimp. So we soldered them.. it's good now. Or you may just have a bad batter switch.

 

[SEMIJim]

I'm sorry, but the following is very confusing. I don't know what to make of it.

Unfortunately, the instrument panel is completely dead.

What do you mean by "instrument panel?" Do you really mean the panel of switches/breakers/fuses/what-have-you that switches everything (except the engine/starter)? Do you mean the boat's instruments (depth, speed, whatever)? Do you mean the boat's aux power instruments (oil pressure, engine temp, etc.)?

I can't see that I have miswired or forgotten anything. I removed the battery selector (off, 1, 2, both) and found that when switched to either 1 or 2, I cannot get a test meter response from touching 1/ground posts or 2/ground posts,

How can you remove the switch and then get any kind of reading between any of the switch's terminals and "ground?"

What do you mean by "test meter response?" Voltage reading? Continuity (resistance) reading?

although I get a proper response from 1 or 2 and any other ground.

"Any other ground?"

Now I'm completely at sea.

So I'm thinking that the selector is faulty, and coincidentally quit when I disturbed it. But when I tried the engine starter, it worked fine on 1 or 2, (but not on off), as usual.

I begin to suspect you do not understand How Things Work.

You have one-or-more battery switches that control power to one-or-more boat systems.

"Traditional" system is a pair of batteries or battery banks and an "OFF-1-BOTH-2" switch. "1" goes to battery (bank) "1" and "2" goes to battery (bank) "2." There is a "C" (common) terminal that goes to the boat's engine (starter circuitry, ignition system) and to the boats DC distribution panel (switches/breakers/fuses/what-have-you). There may be circuits (bilge pump, entertainment radio "memory" power) that bypass the DC distribution panel. (Hopefully they are fused or breaker protected, however.)

"Ground" (really DC negative common, as boats don't really have a ground, per se, unless they're connected to shore power) is common and un-switched.

See the diagram jibes138 posted. That's typical of a small, outboard-driven powerboat, but it illustrates what I wrote about above.

Jim

 

[ancientmariner]

Thanks for mentioning my careless terminology, Jim. I was tired and frustrated when I posted. Yes, I'm familiar with battery banks. I know that 'ground' is inaccurate for marine use. I didn't mean to say "instrument panel", I meant electrical (fuse) panel.

Thanks for your input, everyone. I have some ideas now, which, with a fresh(er) brain, may allow me to address the problem.

 

[SEMIJim]

Thanks for mentioning my careless terminology, Jim.

It wasn't meant to be a criticism. I was merely seeking clarification. I guess, in hindsight, you can see the reasons for my confusion

I was tired and frustrated when I posted.

That'll do it.

Yes, I'm familiar with battery banks. I know that 'ground' is inaccurate for marine use.

I wasn't double-quoting it to poke at you. I was double-quoting it to make clear I was using the word inappropriately, myself.

Some mariners, even I, fall into the mistaken thinking that the DC negative common on a boat is "ground." I've even had sailors insist to me their boats were entirely safe in lightning storms because their masts were keel-stepped and everything was "grounded" to the hull and water. So I try to be careful in my use of the term. Problem is: "Ground" is such a handy word

I didn't mean to say "instrument panel", I meant electrical (fuse) panel.

Ah! Now we're getting somewhere.

My first guess: You accidentally left a wire off when you were re-wiring. The positive supply to your boat's DC distribution panel probably connected to the switch's "C" connection separately from the Big Red Wire that goes to your engine's starter motor. Could you have accidentally left that off?

Alternatively: Main fuse or breaker for the entire panel blew/tripped for some reason. Or something just coincidentally broke. It happens.

Jim

 

[LloydB]

I think that those who have any electrical on their boat and actually plan to repair it themselves should buy a auto-ranging Volt-Ohm meter for their +$1K boat. Then when asking for advise should begin the request something like this: I measured XX.X volts on the pos & neg battery terminal but when... . Another thing is if you are fixing a steel boat that uses the hull as the neg common dc ground then you might be better served on another forum as you have other issues anyway those with glass boat power problems should stick with pos and neg or hot and neutral. thanks Jim

 

[ancientmariner]

"Problem is: "Ground" is such a handy word "
Indeed it is. Try to convince your friends that the tide doesn't come in and go out. "What do you mean? You can see it's coming in now!"

Jim, you got very close to solving the problem. I had tags on all the leads to identify where they were supposed to go, which didn't help when I re-arranged the banks. Now I am catching up with labeling what, not where. I did mis-locate the supply while installing tidy little buss bars. Everything was much easier this morning with a clear head and good advice ringing in my ears.

Thanks, everyone! Especially first-off-the-mark Stu Jackson, the fastest soldering iron in the West.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Before you eliminate "ground" you may want to reconsider: http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wc...catalogId=10001&page=Marine-Grounding-Systems

Seawater ground is the engine block on an inboard powered boat. Commonly called DC ground.