Drum Point Marine

kloudie1 · Mar 23, 2012

We need more folks in the business like them ! our boatyard guy is not to be trusted....

DeniseO30 · Mar 23, 2012

So cool too to see another woman in the trades! Kate you go girl!

jibes138 · Mar 23, 2012

Victim

"3) Some additional restriction must be added to the breather hose. The oil separator, which Mainesail has used successfully on 30 or more boats, along with an additional couple feet of hose was it."

Roger,
Somehow I knew MaineSail was the culprit behind all your troubles. Now I'm wondering about the Manson Supreme anchor I bought to replace the CQR buried in the mud that I couldn't retrieve and need to dive on after the hurricane last fall that you sailed right past on Adams creek. Somehow we need to conjure up a suitable tribute to MaineSail for this debacle :>)

Let's put on our thinking caps and find a way to get even with the young fellow.

Benny17441 · Mar 23, 2012

I have had a working knowledge of Crankcase Breathers but really never paid much attention to them so I decide to go to the Yanmar GM and HM series shop manual to see what I could learn. I got to say that I was impressed by the intricacies of the design work that the manufacturer puts into these breathers. The 1GM uses a reed valve located on the valve cover to maintain negative pressure in the crankcase. The 2 an 3 cylinder GM models use a labyrinth system to separate the oil from the gases with holes in the chamber to allow the oil to drain back. The 3HMs utilize a mesh on top the valve covers to separate the oil from the gases. I gather multiple cylinder engines by having cylinders in opposing strokes can maintain negative pressure by themselves without requiring the reed valve of the single cylinder 1GM. The manual shop goes to indicate that periodic maintenance is not normally required unless excessive oil gasses clog the breather. It goes on to say that a malfunction of the breather may cause oil to be forced past the piston rings, oil seals and gaskets. The implication although not explicitly stated is that a brether failure equates to a failure to maintain negative pressure in the crankcase. Now my take on how this may relate to add-on aftermarket oil separators is that the engineering design work and testing done by the engine manufacturer is superior to what the after-market manufacturer can deliver; after all the engine manufacturer accompanies a warranty for the engine. Now there may come a time when a well worn engine may start having problems with excessive oil gases and frequent clogging of the breathers and perhaps at this time an aftermarket separator may help to manage the condition. For that to happen this aftermarket part would need not only to separate the oil but also to maintain a negative pressure in the cranckcase. These aftermarket parts rarely come with maintenance schedules or recommended procedures or protocol. What I have learned from reading the manuals just confirms my belief that if a manufacturers system is working well there is nothing to be gained by adding an aftermarket substitution. I do not know how many hours of motoring Roger may have put on the engine since he left Maine but is obvious that the add-on oil separator may have needed some maintenance or replacement before that. I'm curious in the paper work that came with it recommended any maintenance. It seems to me that the vacum generated in the intake manifold is a key component in maintaining negative pressure in the crackcase and would hope that the aftermarket add-on had a connection to the manifold.

Shoaldrafter · Mar 24, 2012

It was said, "In addition, we've all learned a lot."

That is a big reason why we all have been following these threads.

One comment from someone not on forum but saw "Strider" go by is why is he racing? Is he trying to get to north pole before July?"

And you were using more RPM's than most of us causual guys would use. When was the last time you went under sail with motor snoozing?

None the less, we appreciate your posting and jabber.

Ed K

kloudie1 · Mar 24, 2012

Benny.. A diesel does not have a throttle plate as a gasoline engine so there is very little vacuum in the intake manifold. (gasoline engines run with 25-28 inches of mercury as measured by manometer.. a diesel runs with around 1 inch of mercury..) The only thing that restricts the intake flow and lowers the pressure in the manifold is the air cleaner/silencer.. That is why the breather design is critical on these guys.. The QM engines are different in that the oil dipstick tube enters the bottom of the oil pan .. as Roger noted, a bad stick seal and a little bit of pressure will pump the oil out.. The GM series (and later model Yanmar models) do not have a dipstick tube so their dipstick seal is not nearly as critical..
http://forums.hunter.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?p=899101&highlight=prime suspect

Kettlewell · Mar 24, 2012

I understand the theory on these oil separators, but can someone point me to a description of the one Roger is using and how it is supposed to be hooked up? Trying to educate myself here. Thanks.

Whoops--later I reviewed some earlier posts and found this: http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=138910

CarlN · Mar 24, 2012

I don't know about you, but I have had the painful experience of repeating a chain of events that is roughly similar.

1. I become convinced of a first diagnosis (and often second) that is wrong.

2. I keep looking for a single "ah-hah" cause rather than an interconnected set of vague causes.

3. I ignore that I may have done something to cause the problem.

Like Prometheus with his liver problem, I seem doomed to repeat this as long as I own a boat.

Carl

All U Get · Mar 24, 2012

jibes138 said:
"3)
Roger,
Somehow I knew MaineSail was the culprit behind all your troubles.
Let's put on our thinking caps and find a way to get even with the young fellow.

Jibes,
I can only come up with one idea, give me a hand polishing up my boat so when Maine Sail sees it on the mooring he'll have to spend the rest of the summer waxing his. :wow:
All U Get

Benny17441 · Mar 24, 2012

Thanks Kloudie, had a 1956 Chevy with vacum operated wipers and when it rained you did not want to floor it as the wipers would come to a stop for lack of enough vacuum. Can sure understand what the lack of a throtle plate restriction can do and now perhaps visualize a secondary function that the air cleaner may fulfill. I think your original asssment was right on the money. It just needed to be confirmed by the test run and the sharp eye of the technician.

Shoaldrafter · Mar 25, 2012

diesel comments

It was said on this forum, "every diesel expert I have ever spoken to or corresponded with (and that's been a lot having designed tens of marine drivetrains and installations) says that is the best way to prolong the life of your diesel and avoid ring problems that can produce blow by.'

Understand that I respect knowledge gained from study and experience.

Many years ago, shortly after graduation from college, I opportunity to work for uncle Sam due to issues in southeast Asia. My assignment said I was on duty 24 hours or until relieved.

The powers in charge had been there before us and provided a stack of paper back books of great variety for us to read while listening for seldom used Klaxton.

I remember one book. It was biography of Orville and Wilbur Wright. There were experts saying man cannot fly. There were experts at Smithsonian in Washington, D.C. say that their paid research by their paid experts would provide the answers, and there were others saying all sorts of things, both good and crap.

So while I respect experts, their anaysis, comments, etc., I always say "What would Orville and Wilbur do?"

I have a sailboat, while it has a motor, it has as primary power, 'sails'. My diesel is not to race to the polar ice cap. Rather my boat is to sail, quietly, sometimes with challenges, but to sail...

So tell the designers of sailboats to remember the intended purpose of a sailboat. For causual cruisers it is to enjoy and be challenged by the 'wind'.

Stop and recall that recently on this forum, it was wind which was the challenge.

Now, reread comments below and reflect. Ask questions about each paragraph. Maybe print out and underline thoughts that ask questions. Ask what Wilbur and Oriville would think.

Somewhere on the Chessie is one of the three Saona's still sailing.

Fair Zyphers,

Ed K
See picture below comments:

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Roger Long said:
Yes, but every diesel expert I have ever spoken to or corresponded with (and that's been a lot having designed tens of marine drivetrains and installations) says that is the best way to prolong the life of your diesel and avoid ring problems that can produce blow by.

Optimally, your want to run your diesel as much as possible at 80% maximum continuous power which will be about 90% of maximum continuous RPM with a properly matched prop.

Many sailboats are set up so you can't do this even if you want to though. The engine is too big and/or the prop too small.

The "You need reserve power for rough conditions." is engine selling bull puckey. When I was fighting my way into the anchorage in the explosive frontal passage a few days before, I never had the engine over cruise RPM and mostly lower because I couldn't see through the spray if I went faster. I measured 50+ mph gusts later after it calmed down a bit and she went into it just fine. I've been in big seas and strong winds and it was the same thing. Comfort and safe handling limited RPM to less than I use in flat water.

Ron20324 · Mar 25, 2012

Roger Long said:
...saved my engine, rescued my cruise, and overhauled Strider's machinery installation. I think they may have even fixed my back...

Congratulations, Roger, on what we hope is the final (correct) analysis. That breeze you felt was a collective sigh of relief from all of us!

Stu Jackson · Mar 25, 2012

Orville and Wilbur

Shoaldrafter said:
Ask what Wilbur and Oriville would think.

"Hey, Wilbur, did ya read what this guy wrote about diesel engines and disagreeing with the manufacturers of all those engines?"

"Yeah, Orville, I did. But did you see how he also blasted US for what we did?"

"What did WE do, Wilbur?"

"Hey, you don't remember how we pulled the wool over everyone's eyes when we kept saying man couldn't fly, while all the time we were working on our secret project to build the aeroplane?"

"Oh, yeah, they fell for that BIG time didn't they?"

"Well, I guess there are still folks out there who will fall for anything, and won't believe it when the builders tell them how to properly use their equipment."

"Right, it's like 'Keep the water outside the boat' and 'Don't lose the horizon when flying' thing. Some people will never learn."

"Yup, that German guy, what was his name, oh yeah Diesel, he was right to say that his engines were too heavy for our plane, but he was sure right about running them at around 70-80% full throttle to keep everything working right and to avoid "lugging" the engines for long periods of time."

"Hmm, maybe that's why they call some of those old sailboats luggers, the owners didn't listen to him and had to sail all the time!"

"Kinda hard to sail on those narrow canals old George Washington had them building, eh?"

"Guess that's why they put engines in those sailboats."

"Say goodnight, Orville."

"Good night, Wilbur."

"Don't fly like MY brother."

kloudie1 · Mar 25, 2012

I have a healthy inquisitive disrespect for most manufacturers "experts" .. I was in the machinery maintenance engineering business for many years. I got bad engineering advice (advice that caused higher failure rates than what we got after re-engineering) from the manufacturing guys (pumps, mechanical seals, diesel engines, electric motors, steam turbines, etc) about 50% of the time... so had to become a part of the field by doing lots of homework and serious failure analysis. On the diesel engine running thing, my experience does not match the experts advice.. I bought a locomotive for switch yard use and contrary to advice from Cummings (the engine manufacturer) it was allowed to idle a lot because the guys did not like to go out and start it and wait for the oil to warm before asking it for power.. It took over 25,000 hours of idling (low power use) for the cylinders to glaze. That idling was interspersed with a few daily pulses of fairly high power use (as it was called into service to push strings of 200 ton cars around).. in the range of 5000 hours of hard running in that time. I am convinced from that experience and other experiences with diesel powered pumps and motorized cranes that if ya run it slowly for a while, and you can do that, then ya better run it pretty hard at carefully thought out times to not let the glaze build to the point that it can't be scrubbed by the high ring pressures from hard running.. in other words, be conscious of how you are running the engine. I am convinced that having good clean oil is a key point.

I am not advising anyone to do that.. I am just stating a personal opinion based on work with several large engines.

Stu Jackson · Mar 25, 2012

Is it possible that those larger engines may have differing requirements than the really comparatively small engines in our boats?

As I recall from my model railroading experiences and reading about yard locomotives compared to long haul locomotives, the yard engines ran at low speeds most of the time anyway.

In addition, there are all those diesel trucks that idle forever at truck stops. Those engines are pretty much a lot bigger than our 20 to 35 hp boat engines.

Or are diesels just diesels?

kloudie1 · Mar 25, 2012

Stu, My belief is that diesels are kinda mostly diesels.. The ring-to-bore pressures are close and the piston speeds are kinda close.. compression pressures are close .. fuel is the same, oil is the same... materials of construction are very close...Some of the crane engines are in the 200 hp range..some more, some less.. The locomotive engines I am most familiar with were Cummings about 300 HP, 6 cyl, turbo/intercooled.. 4 valve heads.. I am familiar with the big GM two stroke diesels in EMD locomotives too. At the extreme ends of the ranges, they aren't the same.. The ship engines with 6 foot bore diameters, and the less than one cubic inch displacement hobby diesels are really different because of the scaling effects on strength and dimensions..
Like I said.. I am not advising anyone to do as I do.. only offering opinions based on observation !

Drum Point Marine

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