Dropping the forestay-norseman fitting-short halyards

[BobM]

Mechanical fittings

Wouldn't it be better to put mechanical fittings on the top and bottom instead of a swage on top and mechanical on bottom?
The stalocs sound nice because you can reuse the whole fitting, but they look like a lot of work to install. The norseman needs the cone replaced when you reuse them but they look very simple to install.
Riggingonly's web site is quite compelling and their prices are reasonable.

Usually it is a bit cheaper to do the swages and mechanicals are recommended at the bottom because salt water exposure is greater and water runs down into fittings. The Stalok we installed has silicon placed inside before it is finally tightened to protect it. Swage fittings up top rarely fail and are cheaper, so that is why tops are still swaged, but bottoms are mechanical. Rigging Only was great. Got my backstay for about $200. Fast service and everything looked top notch.

 

[txtowman]

getting to corpus

I can't find the usual casual work there with this depression we are in, so I guess I am going trucking again.

Tbird-------------- I am fairly sure my catalina 22 spreader brackets have self tapping screws into the mast. I'll take a pic tomorrow.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

I will eat crow ...

and find it to be tasty! Here is a link to some popular modifications for a Catalina 30. The description of the rigging indicates external wire halyards. Frankly, I am astonished as this seems to be pretty old-fashioned even for a 1979 model. At least you don't have wooden spreaders! Txtowman, does your Catalina 22 have external or internal halyards?

http://www.practical-sailor.com/tools/catalina_sailboat.html

Regardless, I think that it would be a relatively easy and worthwhile project to install the exit plates for internal halyards. Leading the halyards to the cabin is my preference, and the 2 winches on the mast will always be usefull when you add an A-sym head sail.

 

[Hermit Scott]

Tbird-criticism is fine. Alot is lost when it's just words on a screen though. I understand you are teaching and helping and that is your way to do it. Thank you for clarifying that, and thank you for participating in my questions.
The main sheet is 72' for a cabin top traveller C30. There are a bunch or turns to get some purchase.
I do have a few books for sailing. The first book I bought for sailing was for racing sail trim. So I tried reading that one, but the terminology was way past where I was at at the time. I would have a better understanding now that I know a sheet is not a sail. The books I use the most now are about systems.
The dark spots under the mast are a cleat for a cunningham and the other a connection for the vang. There is also a cleat for that winch. The halyards on this model are not rigged to the cockpit but I will be doing that as soon as I find all the parts. To buy new is too expensive for me. I will just have to stand by the mast to raise and lower sails for now.
I am leary about the mast having sharp self tapping screws because this wasn't originally made to have internal halyards so why would the factory be careful of sharp things inside the mast?
The only benefit I can see of having internal halyards is immediately having a spare halyard as you described above, and the halyard won't be exposed to the elements as much. Those aren't compelling enough for me to do it right now.
I will be buying a staloc with the cable I order on Monday. I hope they get it to me by friday so I can install it next weekend. I will put the norseman I have on top and the staloc on the bottom. Defender should get the new cone for the norseman to me by friday.
The winches were almost strong enough for a guy to winch me up the mast. I did have to help a bit. but they should be fine for sails as long as I don't have too much friction going on.

 

[Hermit Scott]

I called riggingonly and ordered the cable and a himod fitting. I told the guy that I had a norseman for the other end of the cable and that I ordered a new cone from defender. The guy asks if the norseman has a thin hex lock nut or a round stock lock nut. I told him it had a round one. He tells me that the cone I ordered won't fit because they discontinued those models. He said the new ones have different angles in them. He saved me a big hassel at best and at worst saved me from losing the mast.
I ordered another himod for the other end.
It was $161.96 for 43' of 1/4" 316ss and 2 himod mechanical fittings. That seems like a fair price with some great free advice. I guess all you yankees aren't that bad.
BTW I ordered the HI-Mod fitting over the others because they offer an extention fo that fitting incase I have to redo the fitting and cut the wire.

 

[BobM]

Plus they really buy good stuff. According to their site they test every master roll of wire and their 1 x 19 is "strand polished" which sounds like a good thing to me.

 

[txtowman]

for t-bird

no internal hayards and I have the original cast spreader brackets

 

[wonkodsane]

Hermit, I think, then, that the halyard was never intended to be used with the winch that you are using. Maybe I haven't followed your explanations closely enough, but if that winch is on the mast, I would bet its for a spinnaker halyard. I have a hard time believing that a C30 is rigged for external halyards. It simply doesn't make any sense to me that you don't have internal halyards. If you have self tapping screws with sharp points projecting into the mast, then you need to remove them and replace them. There is absolutely no reason for that and I can't even imagine that a Catalina would have any screws with sharp points protruding into a mast that they rigged for one of their boats. I would certainly expect that a C30 would be rigged with halyards for main sail and headsail to be internal and probably led aft via blocks at the base of your mast and deck organizers. If you don't have that set-up, I recommend it. And from your description regarding the sheaves, they are not suitable for wire halyards, so I think changing them (the halyards) out is imperative. Who in their right mind would even change to wire halyards when the sheaves are intended for rope (I'd bet that Catalina didn't sell the boat originally with wire halyards). I think the PO had some 'issues' and knew nothing about rigging the boat and probably made some changes that you should be leery of. I guess, with that in mind, I would change out every piece of standing and running rigging that you have. Hence, the reason for dropping the mast. You may like climbing it but it is far more efficient to work on all these things while it is down. No disrespect intended, but you are not building a soap box derby car. I suggest a few books because it has become obvious from many of your posts that you are surprised by many of the components and really don't have a clue about how your boat should be rigged or maintained. It seems that there are a lot of issues that you don't even know enough about to question until something totally confuses you. The books will help you identify problem areas and you will recognize things that are not right (which it seems as if there are many) before a problem becomes apparent enough to ask questions on the forum, not that people don't enjoy helping.

T-Bird: I was curious about fasteners on the mast and avoiding problems with damaging your rigging with self-tapping screws or bolts. What do you do in order to avoid this? Rivets? Bolts cut short and beveled cleanly? I have some tracks on my mast that need replacing and I was wondering how to go about doing it.

 

[Hermit Scott]

I received the fittings and cable from riggingonly today. they arrived faster than they projected. Defender claimed they couldn't change my order monday because it had already shipped. But it still hasn't arrived. I ordered the rigging after defender claimed my stuff had already shiipped. Not a big deal about defender, but kudos to riggingonly. I will put the fittings on tonight and plan on putting the new stay on Sunday.
Also about those fasteners for your main sail track, what ever you use make sure it is beveled cleanly and not much longer than what it needs to be. You can't do much better than that unless you have a pet squirl that can shimmy up there and put an acorn nut on the other end.

 

[Hermit Scott]

I stretched the new and old cables out and put the himod fittings on. They are a piece of cake. It is nice that they can be disassembled and all parts reused. One complaint I have is there is no torque specs. What does "tighten the ends on but don't overtighten them" mean? Of course you shouldn't over tighten anything! But how many newton meters is too tight?

 

[jibes138]

Use the Torq - a - Matic

A smidgeon ought to do it.

 

[Hermit Scott]

http://www.petersen-stainless.co.uk/NewFiles/ChooseCompFitt.html
look on the left side of this page and click on the how to video. I actually laughed out loud. It wasn't difficult to install the fitting but come one, that guy is like David Copperfield.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Use machine screws, wonkodsane ...

You want blunt ends. There are guidelines for the desired ratio between the screw diameter and the wall thickness of the aluminum, but in reality, you are going to use the screw that fits the pre-drilled holes of the track. When drilling thru the mast, be careful to drill the correct diameter for the machine screw and then use a tapping tool for the correct thread. It is pretty simple. Of course, if you are replacing tracks, you may already have the holes. If your screws are already machine screws, then it may be as simple as re-using or replacing in kind. Hopefully, you don't have a problem with removing your SS screws that have welded to the aluminum via corrosion. I have had to deal with this on a few occasions and drilling out a SS screw from an aluminum mast is not easy, in fact it is a royal PIA in my opinion. If you have self-tapping pointy-end screws, I would try to replace them with a slightly larger machine screw so that you can freshly tap the aluminum. I don't think those self tapping screws hold worth a darn anyway; hence my recommendation to replace them. IMHO, only SS rivets and SS machine screws should be used on spars. Also, I have found lately that I get the best results when I practice, first. This applies to just about any task. If you can find a way to do a test case with the right size drill bit, the correct tapping thread and the screws you are going to use, do it ... it will give you assurance. I know many don't need that assurance, but I find that it is helpful to me if I am unsure of the technique.

Oh ... and just use a length that gives you maybe a quarter inch of protruding end. It does no good to have an inch of screw protruding into the mast.

Hermit, I have a bad habit of over-tightening. I get into trouble when I think it just needs to be a 'smidgeon' more snug!

 

[Hermit Scott]

I picked up some lock tight on my way home today but I am leary of tightening those himod fitting.
I was trying to take the shackle off the old swivel from my deceased furler. It is a stainless screw in the shackle but the aluminum corroded into the threads. I tried it all and couldn't get it to budge. I had my weight pushing down on a large snap-on screwdriver with the hex at the top for a wrench. I was cranking on it with a wrench and could not get it to budge. Then I tried vice grips on the head of the screw.
Bad obsession talked about stainless screws in his uncles mast that were that bad. I think he ended up grinding off the heads and drilling holes for new ones.