Dropping the forestay-norseman fitting-short halyards

[Hermit Scott]

I went up the mast today to drop the forestay.
A dock friend helped crank me up to there but the wire halyard was about 8' short of reaching the top. I had to do the last 8' by shimmying the mast and then had to hold myself up while I pulled the pins out of the fitting. (1)How would I raise a sail with those halyards since they don't go all the way to the top?
I was happy to see the sheaves were already set up to use rope they had a radius instead of a V shape. (2)That is all it takes for rope right?
Also I found out how the furler was installed and why it was stuck. There was a noresman fitting on the top of the stay, and the furler was stuck and not pulling off the stay because there were plastic rings that slid over the stay that the furler would ride on. They were held up by packing tape, the kind with the strings in it. That tape was a little jammed up. I had to cut that furler in sections to get it off the stay. You can see the plastic rings and the tape in one of the pictures.
(3)How do I know if it's ok to reuse the norseman fitting? (4)Is there a compression ring or something to that effect on the inside?

 

[sailaway78]

You just replace

Hermit,
Inside there is a compression collar, that has to be replaced. It is the only part you cannont reuse. Fortunate, cause those fittings are expensive.

 

[Hermit Scott]

I unscrewed the eye out of the fitting. The wires are sticking out a bit, but they are in there and seems to be stuck pretty good. I guess that's what you want to happen.
How do I get the cable out of the fitting?

 

[Joseph Shirley]

Hermit, let me address the subject of your halyards. I'll see if I've imagined this correctly. First you said Forestay and I believe you meant Headstay. A headstay more specifically is a forestay that attaches to the mast head. A forestay is common to a fractional rig which would normally have the forestay, jib and spinnaker halyards below the top of the mast. A masthead rig would normally have a jib halyard just below the headstay fitting and a spinnaker halyard above or on a short crane forward of the headstay fitting. Halyards 8' below the top (and there could be three) are neither jib or spinnaker halyards. They could be spinnaker pole topping lift, spinnaker pole inboard end lift, and or staysail or spinnaker stayaail halyard.

I have the impression that perhaps you have lost the upper halyard/halyards and they will have to be rerigged. I hope i'm wrong. By the way the radius sheave does indicate rope halyards.

Now if you have the fitting separated you can see the part that should be replaced. It's the part that those wire ends are folded over on. You pry the ends up and straighten them, and then pull them through. Each strand might snap as they are straightened.

Good luck

Joe S

 

[Hermit Scott]

There are 2 halyards, both wire to rope, both the same length. There are only two chanels through the mast head with 2 sheaves per halyard. One is to raise the main, the other to raise the jib. I don't see anywhere else that another halyard could be routed. One of the wire halyards is all crinkled, apparently from some one cranking it around a winch.
Yes, you are right. I am talking about the headstay. I have it rolled up in my car. I am driving around town looking for someone to replace it. I don't know what kind of cable to get. No riggers in this town. It is 1/4". It is somewhat magnetic but not rusted. Should I order 316 type stainless. I think it is 1X19 but I really don't know. There are 19 strands to the cable.
I am low on trust for the marine stores becasue, I sent my wife to pick up some shaft material, aquamet 19 or 22. She brings it back, I have it machiend to fit. The machinist warns me that it is magnetic and will rust in water. I drive back to the prop shop and the guy tells me that all they sell is aquamet 17 and that the other stuff is more expensive, like $50 more. So now I will more than likely replace the shaft prematurely compared to aquamet 22 because of this "marine expert".

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Hermit, it sounds like you are describing a typical mast head set-up. I am assuming that you have a total of 4 sheaves, like the wheels on a car. However, it sounds like you have both halyards run externally, which is not typical. What you can do, and what most sailors do, I think, is have internal halyards for the main and head sail on the stbd side sheaves and an external spare halyard that runs across the 2 port side sheaves.

The internal halyards are set up so the tail ends are internal while the front sheave serves the head sail and the rear sheave serves the main sail. Obviously the tail ends have to exit the mast near the base above the winches. I assume there are exit holes in your mast. The spare halyard can be used either with the working end fore or aft of the mast, since it is external on both sides. You really need to invest in a $20 book on sailing so that you can see these descriptions for yourself.

Also, the experience you are having right now makes everyone wonder why you didn't drop your mast while the boat was on hard ground. All of this stuff would be so much easier and you could thread new rope halyards so much easier.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

BTW, saying that the wire halyards don't go all the way to the top makes no sense. What is that supposed to mean? What stops you from hoisting until the wire/rope connection reaches the sheave? It's external isn't it? Change out those halyards ... it makes no sense not to.

 

[Joseph Shirley]

Hermit, I too am still confused about your halyards. It seems to me know from your explanation that you do have a jib halyard at the mast head but that it jams and stops 8' short because the kinked wire somehow jams in the sheave. If that is the case then you will have to replace the halyard. You can replace it as before with a wire/rope combination, or with all rope. I would suggest the all rope since you have a single radius groove in the sheave.

1X19 SS wire is what you want. If you don't specify the grade you will probably get 316 stainless. It's a little bit weaker than 302/304 (in the 1/4" size something like 7400#/8000#), but is more corrosion resistant. I believe the 302/304 is slightly more expensive. If you have the fittings, all you need is the compression sleeve and the wire. You should be able to get them from West Marine or any marine supply store. If you can't get them locally my supplier would ship.

http://www.fisheriessupply.com/onli...ode+matchpartial+rel+Inactive/act/A01/Ntk/All

Now you should know that all stainless is not stainless, some has a higher iron content than others. Aquamet is a trade name for a stainless shaft material and what your wife got should work just fine for your use. It might stain on the surface but it's never going to rust like steel. The higher grade is normally reserved for high speed shafts or shafts with long unsupported lengths. Breath easier.

Have fun

Joe S

 

[txtowman]

west marine can help with the new headstay, just stand there and watch or help them. If it were me I'd just order one from cd or here with my hull number. and I thought you could get a racing foil for your jib, although it may be a PIA to hoist and douse.

Wish I was there to help, I could learn and teach at the same time.

Your prussic knot should have held you up while you were working at the masthead. You can also make loops to put your feet in to steady yourself with feet gripping the mast. I type way too slow to be of much help here.

 

[Hermit Scott]

T-bird-I think it is a typical mast head set up. But, I hooked a caribiner directly to the wire halyard on the front of the mast to my climbing harness. My friend cranked until the other end of that wire halyard was at the winch mounted on the mast. I was about 8' from the mast head. Yes, I know it seems weird. But I thought there must be an explination that I was missing.
These halyards were never ran internally. There is no opening in the mast. there could be sharp screws in there or something sharp that could snag or abrade the halyard. It wasn't originally set up for it so I wouldn't trust it unless I could see every foot of that mast on the inside.
I'm not sure everyone would agree with you that they are wondering why I didn't drop the mast to change a stay.
I think we see working on boats differently. I am not horrified or exasperated by doing these jobs. It's just another project to be done. Undoing all the shrouds and stays, disconnecting the electrical and dropping the mast seems like alot more work than climbing the mast for 15 minutes. I didn't ask but I don't think they would have done it for free either. Even if I dropped the mast the furler would still have been coroded and the work was all the same.
"You really need to invest in a $20 book on sailing so that you can see these descriptions for yourself." quote Tbird
I understand your description just fine. why do you think I would not understand simple english? Seems like somewhat of an insult but I'll roll with it.

Joseph-I believe the stay I have now is 304. It is somewhat magnetic but not rusted. It was totally covered by the furler though. Maybe the aluminum kept it from corroding. I am going to order the stay from my cable shop who is ordering it from a rigger in Florida. $83 for 43' of 316 ss 1/4" 1X19 cable with a swage fitting on one end. I have a norseman fitting for the bottom. It is said that they are more corrosion resistant than swage fittings. I guess because the way the cable is mushroomed out in the fitting. I am ordering a new cone for the fitting from Defender. But I will check SBO first, for the same reason I am ordering through my cable guy. Thanks for the words of encouragement about the shaft. I will find out about it when I get around to installing a dripless seal a few years from now. I was very pleased yesterday when I checked my bilge, the water I left in it had evaporated and it was dry.:dance:
txtowman-I wish you were here too so you can winch me up the mast when I have to hook the new stay up. weren't you coming to CC anyway?

 

[Nik]

Hermit,
Best prices I found on fittings and wire rope is from "Rigging Only" http://www.riggingonly.com/ , good people and knowledgeable. 1-19 is the most common stranding to use.

Nik

 

[BrianW]

I agree with Nik on riggingonly.com. With them, I paid less than $50 for a swaged top fitting on a 3/16" forestay. Most of all, they talked with me for over 30 minutes with very helpful advice. I even sent them a photo of my mechanical fitting (no ID of brand) and damaged forestay. They ID'ed the brand of my mechanical fitting and selected the replacement cone for it. They even offered an opinion on why my old forestay failed. BrianW

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Hermit, I think, then, that the halyard was never intended to be used with the winch that you are using. Maybe I haven't followed your explanations closely enough, but if that winch is on the mast, I would bet its for a spinnaker halyard. I have a hard time believing that a C30 is rigged for external halyards. It simply doesn't make any sense to me that you don't have internal halyards. If you have self tapping screws with sharp points projecting into the mast, then you need to remove them and replace them. There is absolutely no reason for that and I can't even imagine that a Catalina would have any screws with sharp points protruding into a mast that they rigged for one of their boats. I would certainly expect that a C30 would be rigged with halyards for main sail and headsail to be internal and probably led aft via blocks at the base of your mast and deck organizers. If you don't have that set-up, I recommend it. And from your description regarding the sheaves, they are not suitable for wire halyards, so I think changing them (the halyards) out is imperative. Who in their right mind would even change to wire halyards when the sheaves are intended for rope (I'd bet that Catalina didn't sell the boat originally with wire halyards). I think the PO had some 'issues' and knew nothing about rigging the boat and probably made some changes that you should be leery of. I guess, with that in mind, I would change out every piece of standing and running rigging that you have. Hence, the reason for dropping the mast. You may like climbing it but it is far more efficient to work on all these things while it is down. No disrespect intended, but you are not building a soap box derby car. I suggest a few books because it has become obvious from many of your posts that you are surprised by many of the components and really don't have a clue about how your boat should be rigged or maintained. It seems that there are a lot of issues that you don't even know enough about to question until something totally confuses you. The books will help you identify problem areas and you will recognize things that are not right (which it seems as if there are many) before a problem becomes apparent enough to ask questions on the forum, not that people don't enjoy helping.

 

[sailingdog]

I'd also recommend riggingonly.com. They're good people and unlike many less specialized shops, the guys there know their stuff. Of course, they're about 10 minutes from where I keep my boat...so they're local to me too.

 

[Hermit Scott]

Tbird

You are killing me here. Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Look in the picture at the mast. There are two winches about 3' or 4' off the deck on opposing sides of the mast. If you look real close, there is a label above the winch, it says "main" the other winch has a label that says "jib".
Do you see any exit ports on the mast? I can see that you absolutely do not believe this is true, but I promise the photo has not been tampered with in any way.
I do not know if there are self tapping screws. That is why I won't run a line through the mast. I didn't say it HAS them. I said I don't know IF it has them.

"it has become obvious from many of your posts that you are surprised by many of the components and really don't have a clue..."
You are suprised by this set up, or rather in complete denial or simple disbelief. Does this mean you don't have a clue about boats? There are some book you can read.

"I would change out every piece of standing and running rigging that you have"
Really??? You would change out a 100' long piece of polyester rope used as a main sheet because you can't believe there are external halyards? That's like saying you'd change out the steering wheel in your car because you think they put the wrong spark plugs in the engine.

"No disrespect intended" hhhmmmm, then what exactly are your intentions?

Tbird-try to understand I have never sailed a boat before, but I am fixing/restoring this boat. I can't read all the books on sailing to find one that explains why this boat is set up the way it is. That is what this forum is for.

 

[Joseph Shirley]

Hermit, for info, the swaged fitting eventually fails from stress corrosion which is caused by the salt water getting into the swage. The swage is under a hoop stress as a result of the forming process and the corrosion comes in the form of stress cracks and then failure. It generally takes about 10 years at the minimum and most often much longer. That's why they still use the swaged fittings at the top of the wire where the salt water isn't so apt to get into them.

The Noresmen or Stay-lock (another brand) fittings are mechanical machined fittings which don't have hoop stress and don't corrode. The wire at that sharp bend may corrode so they normally advise you to put some caulking in and around the compression fitting to provide some extra protection against water infusion.

Good Luck

Joe S

 

[sailingdog]

Joe—

All stainless steel fittings corrode... mechanical ones do so with fewer issues than swages.

The Noresmen or Stay-lock (another brand) fittings are mechanical machined fittings which don't have hoop stress and don't corrode.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Hermit, you have a fine boat ...

and i would be proud to own it. A 1979 Catalina is an excellent boat to restore and to learn all about sailing with. It looks like the hull and rig is in fine shape, but pictures on the internet don't always tell the story well. I am being critical of you. I think there is a distinction between being critical and being disrespectful. I don't think I have insulted you in any way. Still, I will continue to be critical. You need to get a few Sailing Fundementals books. I am sure you can find one for just a few bucks, the ones I have cost no more than $18 (each) new from a bookstore. You'd be surprised what they contain that you could relate to your boat. For instance, one that I have describes the mast head configuration and how to route the halyards.

Yes, I am in denial or disbelief. I cannot comprehend that a Catalina 30 rigged in 1979 would not have internal halyards, especially since you describe a mast head that has the configuration for it. Unless the PO screwed in self tapping screws, for whatever reason I can't fathom, a Catalina would not have screws to hang up your halyards. Yes, I see the winches on your mast. I suspect that the PO labeled them and that doesn't necessarily indicate the intended purpose for those winches. They actually look a little light duty for the purpose of halyard winches for the main and head sail but I can't tell for sure from the picture. It is very common that halyard winches are mounted on the mast. I can't tell, but what are those dark shapes below the gooseneck? I am not going to argue with you whether or not you have exit holes for your halyards, but if you don't, they are relatively easy to install and having internal halyards is such a common feature on boats of your kind that it is somehow very curious that you don't seem to have that feature and you should probably get it done. Obviously I don't know your boat, but I can tell you what is commonly done and Catalina doesn't do things all that much different than any other boat maker. My mast doesn't have winches on it, not that I couldn't add one or two for whatever purpose. My internal halyards exit below the gooseneck and are turned at the base of the mast to be hoisted using the cabin top winches. This is a very common approach and I am sure that many or all Catalinas are or could be set up the same way.

Since I don't believe that a 1979 Catalina 30 would be rigged with wire halyards, I also suspect that the PO switched them out and botched the job. Didn't you say that you suspect that the wire was wrapped around the winch? There you have it ... your answer why the wire reaches the winch before the sail can be fully hoisted and the reason why the wire looks like it was wrapped around the winch. Besides, why would there be wire halyards rigged with sheaves that are designed for rope? I'm absolutely positive that Catalina didn't do it that way. But I could be wrong, I've never owned a Catalina.

Maybe I did go a little overboard on my recommendation to replace all your running rigging. By all means, keep your 100' long main sheet, although why it needs to be 100' is unfathomable to me. Mine is 40'. I suppose I could use a few more feet, and maybe you have several more blocks and runs than I have. I am basing my recommendation on your description of components that are shot to hell. Also, based on your description of wire halyards being run through sheaves that are designed for rope (a very bad idea), and then being wound around a winch, I have no confidence that the PO had any idea how to rig the boat and probably botched more than the issues that you are describing. Hence my reco to have a professional rig all your standing rigging for your safety and the safety of those around you.

If my criticism insults you, that is not my intention. I obviously have an affinity with sailors who are pursuing the same interests as mine.

oops ... I mis-stated the location of the exit plates. They are well above the gooseneck, making it feasible to use mast mounted winches. Here they are on port and stbd.

 

[Hermit Scott]

Wouldn't it be better to put mechanical fittings on the top and bottom instead of a swage on top and mechanical on bottom?
The stalocs sound nice because you can reuse the whole fitting, but they look like a lot of work to install. The norseman needs the cone replaced when you reuse them but they look very simple to install.
Riggingonly's web site is quite compelling and their prices are reasonable.

 

[Nik]

Hermit,

I used Sta-Loc top bottom and all around on my boat and have used / installed them on OPB's over the years. I like them... Have also used other mechanical fittings, Norseman etc... I still like the Sta-loc's the best, IMHO. They take a little getting used to, the wrapping of the cone. But, once you do 2 or 3 it is really easy.

Nik