DOWNWIND

May 17, 2004
2,099
Other Catalina 30 Tucson, AZ
Probably a majority of sailors, if given the choice between closehaul/reaching and downwind would pick the former because sailing downwind is boring - to me anyway. Most racers break out the beer and sandwiches on that leg.

The first couple of times I sailed the Newport (Ca) to Ensenada (Mexico) race, which is all downhill, I really didn't like it. You could mount a broom stick and a bed sheet on a 50 gal drum and sail that race!! On the nights watch, watching Halle's comet streak across the sky, I started to think about the theory of downwind sailing - how can I get some more speed out of this sucker!! Very little is written about downwind. Most of the race boats I went on were middle to back of the pack and if I could improve their performance on that leg it would be a minor victory. In other words, when other boats broke out the beer/sandwiches we would "go to work" and pick off 3 or more boats knowing the advantage would be short lived once the marked was turned but a minor victory none the less.

That's getting ahead of myself. The following is how I went about the exercise. What causes a boat to move forward is a combination of lift/drag - mainly lift. Scientifically that's too deep for me but I know how it works. Heading dead downwind, which most, not all, cruisers/racers do, produces zero lift. Drag is actually causing the boat to move forward. That night with the helm on auto pilot, I accidentally hit it and caused the boat to head up slightly and the speed increased. Surprised, I headed up a little more and the speed increased some more - not to the worlds land/sea record but a increase none the less. The skipper had instructed me to not make any course or sail trim adjustments "like DON"T touch anything" so I adjusted back to the original course sailing directly at Ensenada and the boat slowed down. I didn't like the skipper very much so I never mentioned what I had experienced but I didn't forget it.

Later I decided to test the theory on my Catalina 30. In Long Beach, Ca it's easy - leave the marina and turn left. The following is by no means a scientific study - it just a hillbilly country boy trying to get the most out of his boat. The trim was ease the boom out as far as possible and tighten the vang so there's no twist but later I found a little twist helps. The trick is to head up and generate lift but how far?

Under 3 knots of wind I found it didn't matter what I did - the speed did not increase so sail dead down wind in that situation. In the 3 to 10 knot range, 8 to 10 rarely happens in So Ca, I found I could increase the speed if I came up about 35* to 40*. Above 10 knots I don't know but I suspect I could go higher. You're sailing farther but faster.

In So Ca the winds are pretty consistent but sometime they shift.. When they do you have to adjust your procedure. There are 2 kinds of shifts - persistent & oscillating. In a oscillating situations you may have to jibe.

My old web site had a 11 page synopsis of all I learned about downwind sailing. Unfortunately, Godaddy canceled my web site by mistake. I didn't catch it until a Sail Trim customer brought it to my attention but by then it was too late - none of the material could be recovered. Phil at SBO came to my rescue and built a new site for me but without the stuff contained in my original site. I really appreciated his help.

So what's the "rest of the story" here? On the scale of 1 to 100, the sailors from 75 to 100 don't need to think about what their sail trim controls can do for them - they already know. The group from 31 to 75 don't really care - they mostly just want to raise the main and roll out the jib, which is fine because any day sailing is a good day. On the other hand, the group from 1 to 29 want to know the WHAT & WHY of sail trim. The WHY is most important as it's everything and other wise a sailor is just guessing at the adjustments to his main and jib. Over the years I've grown to love that group. So if you don't know how a particular sail trim control works just fool around with it and see what happens - that's how a lot of sailors learned to sail. There's an easier way - my book explains how each sail trim control for the main and jib work and in detail!!
 
Jun 16, 2004
18
Beneteau Oceanis 461 Kiawah Island, SC
With your background, I am afraid to post anything to go against what you have stated, for fear of embarrassment, or somehow stealing your thunder, still I post.

The downwind leg is much faster SOG, in almost any offset to dead downwind, with proper sail trim, like you mention. The breeze is much more comfortable also. (Exception, when hull speed is obtained)

There is, of course, the mathematical point, where that offset does not agree, with the VMG, and that has always been an issue between myself, and fellow crew members. You mention it, and we have raced it.

A sailmaker in my hometown says "One degree at one mile equals 90 feet" as in 90 feet lost or gained in the loss of that one percent. I have no way of calculating this, but I have sailed by it, as if it were true. Remembering this better in boat lengths helps!

So, downwind at 160-155 degrees of wind off the bow, with the main as you described, possibly with a preventer added, along with the headsail draft at near 25-30 percent, and cars forward, seems to be fastest for my larger boats at 35 and 46 feet long.

I can absolutely guarantee that (to my surprise) in a buoy race, the time saved by NOT working the pole, on downwind legs, positively saved time, and we were faster, to the first place that day. The whisker pole on my Beneteau Oceanis 351 is about 50 pounds, and extends out to 22 feet, so it is very awkward and heavy, as well as impossible to jibe without collapsing the pole, by our older crew members.

You and I are in agreement, and that the math is somewhat deceptive, if not counterintuitive, but it works well, and the crew are much more comfortable, with the comfortable cross breeze. Use this also with the swells to your advantage!

There is another version of this, sailing the boom to lee.

You and your tools helped me to begin sailing on my own, and I will always respect that help. Thank you!
 
Oct 26, 2010
1,905
Hunter 40.5 Beaufort, SC
Interesting that this has come up today. I was sailing in about 8 knots dead downwind in an area that did not allow me the ability to come up some without a lot of jibes. I was able to get wing-n-wing sailing a little by the lee and when I did picked up speed more than I expected. I would have liked to get a little more by the lee to experiment with best amount to use when wing-n-wing, except that would have put me on shore in quick order. I surmised that as I was very slightly by the lee in 8 knots of true wind, the main directed wind into the genoa thus helping some. The question is, would a little more by the lee would have spilled even more? Didn't get to check that out due to course constraints of the area I was sailing. In any case, I recall I got about 5 knots through the water with a 20,000+ lb boat. I have swept back spreaders so couldn't get the main out as much as I would like but maybe at that speed, the directed wind into the Jib made up for not being able to get the main out as much.

Just musings on a great day out sailing.

Smokey
 
May 17, 2004
2,099
Other Catalina 30 Tucson, AZ
With your background, I am afraid to post anything to go against what you have stated, for fear of embarrassment, or somehow stealing your thunder, still I post.
Mac: I'm just a pecker wood hillbilly on sail trim. I've learned more about sail trim over the past years from regular contributors to the sail trim forum like Stu J, Joe from San Diego and a bunch others - more than I ever contributed.

When I lived in So Ca sailors contacted me to help them improve their sail trim. Many I helped - some I couldn't. A couple out of Dana Point, Ca are a good example. I met them at their boat and they had beer and sandwiches, which I appreciated. It's always hard to find a point at which to start so I suggested they raise the sails and "let's see what you've got". After about 15 minutes sailing closehauled and reaching it was obvious this couple, like a lot of the contributors to the sail trim forum, "knew their onions" about sail trim. If there's one thing I know about sail trim is that a person has to know their limitations and I know mine. I told them I can't help you. My level of expertise is giving beginners a solid basic understanding of the fundamentals of sail trim which give's them a foundation to build on. I can move a beginner to middle intermediate but that's it. To move beyond that point they need a expert. I felt bad about wasting their time and drinking their beer and eating the sub sandwich (I wanted to pay them for lunch) but we became very good friends to this day.

Some times what bugs me about a given topic on the sail trim forum is I say something and sometimes the discussions ends. In a couple of cases, if it's scientific which I don't like, I really didn't know what I was talking about - I was just guessing!! Over the years I've learned that if I'm just guessing on the forum it's dangerous. Many times I've learned that very quickly and the hard way. Unless I'm absolutely sure of the subject I button my lip.
. .
 
May 17, 2004
2,099
Other Catalina 30 Tucson, AZ
A comment on experts: over my life time I've encountered many experts on a lot of life subjects - including sail trim. Most of the sail trim experts, not all, were crappy communicators. They could not explain the subject in simple terms a beginner could understand. With some of them, after 5 minutes into the conversation, it was obvious they were no more experts than I was.

Every Yacht club and dock has a individual "who knows everything" about sailing. A friend of mine at Shoreline YC in Long Beach, Ca knew such a person - it was his brother!! He asked me if I could think of a way to shut him up. I suggested he try this - ask him to explain the difference between draft depth and draft position? Inevitably he'll mix up the terms. Next ask him what sail trim controls on the main and jib are used to adjust both elements? If he gets that far, which he won't - ask him what the settings would be closehauled in 5 knots of wind. I suggested to my friend that if his brother gets beyond the 3 questions - learn from him!!

Sailors here on the forum should ask themselves those same 3 questions. If they can't answer them then they should find the answers. I've made it easy for them. The answers are in my book THE SAIL TRIM USERS GUIDE.
 

Tedd

.
Jul 25, 2013
750
TES 246 Versus near Vancouver, BC
A sailmaker in my hometown says "One degree at one mile equals 90 feet" as in 90 feet lost or gained in the loss of that one percent.
One of the many reasons I prefer nautical miles to statute miles is that this rule simplifies to 100 feet per degree (per nm).
 
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May 17, 2004
5,080
Beneteau Oceanis 37 Havre de Grace
Racers will (or should) exercise this concept by knowing their boat’s polars. The polar diagrams show the target boat speeds at each wind angle.

Here’s an example of a polar for a random boat:
1656553850168.png


Each colored line represents boat speed at each wind angle. Each color is a different wind speed. The distance from the center is speed through water.

It’s clear enough to see that dead down wind gives slower boat speed than a broad reach, but how do you tell whether the extra distance is worthwhile?

Conveniently, the vertical “height” of each line can be used to get an idea for VMG at different wind angles. If you want to sail the best downwind VMG you find the line for your windspeed, then look at the wind angle where that line is “lowest” down the plot. For example, looking along the light blue line for 30 knot winds, the best downwind VMG is about 150 degrees true wind angle. At that point the extra speed gained by sailing a higher angle makes up for the extra distance sailed to the maximum extent possible.
 

Tedd

.
Jul 25, 2013
750
TES 246 Versus near Vancouver, BC
Racers will (or should) exercise this concept by knowing their boat’s polars.
Even as a cruiser who has never raced I think it's helpful to know my boat's polar. One of the things that surprised me when I first got into sailing was that there's no published polar for so many boats.

Further to @Davidasailor26 's post, what you're looking for to find maximum downwind TWA and speed is the horizontal tangent to the polar line for that wind speed, as shown below. Using @Davidasailor26 's example of 30 knots of wind, you're making about half a knot better speed in the downwind direction running off the wind at around 160 degrees TWA than you would get running straight downwind. Combine that with a smoother and more stable ride, which I'm told is normally the case with most boats, and it seems like running slightly off the wind is usually going to be the better strategy.


Polar.png
 
Last edited:
Jan 1, 2006
7,078
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
Do polars take into account different sail configurations? For example in lighter wind you may deploy a spinnaker of some sort. Do polars differentiate asymmetric vs symmetric spinnaker? What about reefing? Many boats would be hard pressed to carry full sail in 30 kts - even downwind.
If not I would take the polar with a grain of salt and only look at certain wind ranges and sailing angles. For instance to have a target boat speed in 12 kts. sailing a beat.
Looking at 12 kts. (Lime green) at very deep angles the difference between DDW and 140 * seems to be about a knot. It seems to be that 140* is a pretty high angle - being 40* higher than ddw.
I raced a H356 with a B&R rig in club level races and some regional races in non - spin divisions. I had the B&R rig with swept back spreaders. I never found that sailing hotter angles got me on the podium. I would do better by letting the main rest up on the spreaders and pole out the jib. That was my experience.
 
Oct 22, 2014
21,113
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
Do polars take into account different sail configurations?
Yes.
Polars can be based on the hull, rigging, sails all of it. They are often established with a minimum sail and boat hull configuration. Then they can be adjusted too address different sail configurations and individual helms handling. Often as you put a team together, you record the performance data to be reflected in polar charts. They provide an optimazation target. You may find that the boat polars are over or understated when acutally sailing the boat.

That has been my expreience.
 

Tedd

.
Jul 25, 2013
750
TES 246 Versus near Vancouver, BC
Do polars take into account different sail configurations?
Since polars are geared toward racing it's probably a safe assumption that the boat's configuration is optimized for the conditions at each data point. For example, if the boat has a spinnaker then it's probably deployed for the downwind data points, at least up to a certain wind speed. Based on what I've seen that information isn't usually explicitly included in the plot, but you can likely get more detail from whoever created it.
 
Oct 22, 2014
21,113
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
you can likely get more detail from whoever created it.
Tedd, there are software systems that let you create your own polars. You input the basic boat data and then sail the boat compiling data. You input the data and generate the polars which are a graphical report on your performance. You can then measure against the raw data developed polars to refine the report. This is where you tweek the polar to reflect your boat not a theoretical boat.

Here is one example.
I have no expereience with this software.
 
Oct 22, 2014
21,113
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
Pratical Sailor has an article about polars and various software they tested.
 
May 17, 2004
5,080
Beneteau Oceanis 37 Havre de Grace
There’s also more explanation from the Offshore Racing Congress, who produces polars for racing and as part of their boat handicapping process -

In general the polars will show the optimal speed at each point, using whatever sails are available, as specified when the polar is generated. Sometimes you’ll see polars with two sets of lines - one focusing on upwind, and one focusing on downwind. They intersect around a reach. In those cases the different lines represent headsail vs spinnaker.
 
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Tedd

.
Jul 25, 2013
750
TES 246 Versus near Vancouver, BC
Tedd, there are software systems that let you create your own polars.
I've actually looked into that but I haven't found one at a price I was willing to pay. Do you know how much the ElettronicaMente one costs? The ORC software is 600 bucks, which is probably a fair price for what it is, but much more than I'm willing to pay.
 
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Oct 22, 2014
21,113
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
I’ve not pursued Polars for my boat. Sorry I do not know the costs.

My activity is cruising. While I search out the idea if racing. It could give you a metric to use in improving your competitive advantage. Cruising, I monitor and trim while observing SOG. I have a general understanding of hull speed, currents that would affect my SOG. Balancing these and enjoyment are relatively easy.
 
May 17, 2004
5,080
Beneteau Oceanis 37 Havre de Grace
I've actually looked into that but I haven't found one at a price I was willing to pay. Do you know how much the ElettronicaMente one costs? The ORC software is 600 bucks, which is probably a fair price for what it is, but much more than I'm willing to pay.
I don’t know about the software, but for your own boat you can get the polar data along with a handicap certificate with the ORR-EZ performance package. I think the handicap with the performance package is $150, versus the handicap without the performance package for $100, so if you plan to do any races that use ORR-EZ scoring it’s not a bad deal.
 

Tedd

.
Jul 25, 2013
750
TES 246 Versus near Vancouver, BC
Thanks, @Davidasailor26 , I didn't know about that. I'm not planning to race my next boat but I'd like to have a polar for it anyway, so I might go for it.
 
Jul 5, 2022
4
J-Boat J30 Perry Lake
Moving ballast (crew weight) can be critical. Keep crew off the bow as much as possible to keep bow up. Check VMG and it might be faster to sail on broad reach instead of downwind.
 
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