Downwind tactics

[Mike8088]

We race our O'day 26 and always seem to lose ground on the downwind leg. We usually try to sail wing and wing with a 140% genoa poled out and the centerboard raised. However, we get left in the dust. Are there any secrets to sailing wing and wing, such as putting more belly in the sails, moving the genoa cars, etc? Or, should we try a broad reach and risk sailing too far off course? Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks.

 

[jdhohmann]

Gybing down wind

We race our O'day 26 and always seem to lose ground on the downwind leg. We usually try to sail wing and wing with a 140% genoa poled out and the centerboard raised. However, we get left in the dust. Are there any secrets to sailing wing and wing, such as putting more belly in the sails, moving the genoa cars, etc? Or, should we try a broad reach and risk sailing too far off course? Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks.

We also have the same problem, however, they say that if you gybe down wind, you will move faster down the course than sailing in a direct line to your next marker, I have a very hard time understanding this and I never try it neither, I don't know why, maybe I 'll start tonight as well in our race
Give her a try !!!!!! Changing some sail configurations will help as well

 

[Tim R.]

Like any other point of sail, you have to tweak and test different trims to see what works for your boat. Some boats go better DDW and some better on broad reaches. If you have a GPS, try using the VMG function to see what works best.

Check your local rules regarding the centerboard. Some state(for safety reasons) that you cannot lift the board all the way.

You also have a handicap with the 140. Most rules break at 135. So you can go faster if you were to fly a 155 with the same rating. If you had a 135 instead of a 140, you would likely add 3 seconds to your PHRF.

BTW, I am sure you know this but faster boats(lower rating) should be catching you.

 

[RichH]

In normal wind conditions, THE worst, slowest boat speed will be 'wing and wing' ... the sails are not receiving any airflow 'across' them and therefore there is no 'aerodynamic flow'. In light and moderate conditions its always better/faster to go down the course on a broad reach (at ~135 deg.or ~225 deg. to the true wind) so that you are getting 'aerodynamic flow' across the sails. You will travel 'more distance' but the boat will be much much faster and thus be able to cover the total distance to the 'mark' faster. The faster that a boat moves through the air, the faster the air goes 'across' the face of the sail .... thus faster. Called 'tacking downwind'. The higher the windspeed the lower angle you can 'sail' 'downwind', in very high wind then WingOnWing 'may' be faster but only if the boat is near to 'hull speed'.

Get a full set of tell-tales (at luff, leech ... and a row of tales along the bottom of the jib about 4ft. off the deck ... and sail to the angle that allows ALL the tell-tales to be 'streaming straight back on BOTH sides of the sail.

If you dont have one get a 'sail trim' book which uses "tell tales'. Right HERE in the SBO chandlery: "Sail Trim Users Guide" - http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books/category-books.htm?fno=400&group=[groupid]&cat=1321&nop=T .... and keep those tell-tales 'flying' even when going downwind.

 

[Gail R]

We race our O'day 26 and always seem to lose ground on the downwind leg. We usually try to sail wing and wing with a 140% genoa poled out and the centerboard raised. However, we get left in the dust. Are there any secrets to sailing wing and wing, such as putting more belly in the sails, moving the genoa cars, etc? Or, should we try a broad reach and risk sailing too far off course? Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks.

We race our Pearson 30 in "cruising class" (non-spin). People keep telling us that broad reaching would get us to the mark faster, and for some boats that works. However, we tend to do better sailing wing-and-wing. We do a couple other things in addition to poling out the genny:

* Move the genoa car a few slots forward (how far depends on your boat); just remember to put it back for the next beating leg!
* If it's a long enough leg, ease your main's outhaul and halyard tension, especially if the air is light.
* Get a genny the maximum size allowed to not be penalized in your rating. Generally this is 150% or 155%. That 140 is not helping your cause!
* Try reaching instead. We had an opponent with a fractional genoa who used to sail very hot angles to the downwind marks and he used to kick out butts soundly. If you have a GPS with VMG function, that might give you some data as to whether that's helping or hurting.

 

[Bob J.]

There was an article in last months (I believe) Sailmagazine that discussed this issue & how sailing ddw isn't always the fastest.

The bird doesn't always fly straight south.

Bob

 

[tommays]

It depends on wind speed at 20 knots your going to hit hull speed sailing wing and wing dead down wind

At 7 knots you would need to find the best angle you might sail at 160 Deg and see a BIG speed increase

I did not find a polar (chart which shows wind speed and sailing angles) for and Oday BUT if you google a boat like a J24 you will see one

 

[Gail R]

Physics schmisics

In normal wind conditions, THE worst, slowest boat speed will be 'wing and wing' ... the sails are not receiving any airflow 'across' them and therefore there is no 'aerodynamic flow'. In light and moderate conditions its always better/faster to go down the course on a broad reach (at ~135 deg.or ~225 deg. to the true wind) so that you are getting 'aerodynamic flow' across the sails.

I know that is a popular belief, and probably true in many conditions for many boats, but it is by no means absolute. We have tried both reaching and going wing-and-wing DDW. We generally get better results going DDW unless the wind is really, really light. Then we have to sail hotter angles to get her going.

The OP has received lots of good suggestions, including the reaching suggestion. Now he can go try them out and see what works.

BTW the polars for a J/24 are not going to be the same as for the OP's O'Day.

 

[Ray T]

I used to race my Cal 227 in the northern Chesapeake. I would go wing and wing downwind. I tried tacking downwind but seemed to lose ground [ or water] to the other boats. The CBYRA authorized the use of double headsails without penalty and I was significantly faster. I always thought the use of double headsails defeated the purpose of racing non spinnaker but since they allowed it I did it. I would pole out the working jib to windward and fly the 155 to leeward. This will not allow you to go directly downwind but pretty close. I used the spinnaker halyard for the working jib and didn't hank it on. This was permitted if the luff of the jib didn't sag more then 4% of the foot. Check your associations rules. This may be permitted.

 

[Todd Smith]

Test your VMG

The OP has received lots of good suggestions, including the reaching suggestion. Now he can go try them out and see what works.

Here is a link on how to set up a handheld GPS for VMG testing.
http://wingsailor.com/html/vmg___gps.html

Have fun
Todd

 

[JerryA]

Once again Rich is right on! Airflow over the sails will probably be best for your O'Day, since you say you are getting killed sailing wing-on-wing. Just be careful on the jibe. My dock neighbor has an O'Day 25 and experiences the same as you describe when try to go DDW.

JerryA

 

[Alan]

Listen to RichH , he is correct. I used to race my Pearson 30 JAM and almost never sailed DDW. At 12 kts true, the apparent wind speed on the sails is about 8kts. Heading just 15 degrees higher is equivalent to increasing the wind to 10 kts AND moving the AWA forward. As you can realize this is a significantly faster point of sail that more than makes up for the small additional distance sailed. The net result is you arrive at the leeward mark sooner. This is not magic it is simply basic trigonometry.

 

[shemandr]

For DDW sailing wing on wing I would have the outhaul tight not slacked. You are in a barn door mode of sailing and the larger the door the better. Do you pole the jib out? That may help.

 

[Tim R.]

For DDW sailing wing on wing I would have the outhaul tight not slacked. You are in a barn door mode of sailing and the larger the door the better. Do you pole the jib out? That may help.

I disagree. Loosening your outhaul and creating some belly in the main causes it to hold the wind better rather than spilling off the edges. This will create a higher pressure against the sail thus providing more force to move the boat forward. Also, most mainsails cannot go out to 90° so the increased belly helps capture that wind that would be more likely to spill over the mast if it was flat.

 

[Alan]

Just another note: Anyone who sails wing on wing does not have to sail DDW. By using a correctly sized whisker pole that can be adjusted for the genoa size, sailing a higher angle can be done by extending the pole length and easing the sheet. This allows a higher sailing angle for increased VMG while allowing the genoa to remain full and drawing. The key here is to extended the pole far enough to push the clew of the genoa far enough forward. Fixed length poles are not capable of doing this.

 

[RichH]

Boy, does Alan have that correct with the use of whisker poles.

Im quite stale with the use of poles vs. 'current' racing rules (and different rules sometimes to different fleets), but if a pole is allowed "to be on the SAME side as the boom' is on, if a pole can be used to hold the clew 'out' (not necessarily wing and wing but on the same side of the boat as the boom) - the curve of the foot of a large genoa will be more correct 'curve' for good aerodynamic flow across the sail ... and often with a surprising increase in boat speed. Without a pole holding the clew 'out', the rail of the boat is the limit to which one can sheet a jibsheet ... and with sailing deep angles downwind much of the time the foot of the sail has 'too much' curve and the upper portion of the sail becomes 'overly-twisted' and wont match the 'air stream' flow across it (and you get lots of 'separation stalls' along the foot). Once I started sailing a boat with a 'club foot' on the foresail, I noticed that I could go faster downwind with a 'club foot' with a smaller sail ... than without a 'pole' and a larger sail because the pole properly held the clew away from the boat because the sail was much less 'twisted' and had better aero flow across it.
Might be a 'rule beater' for Drifter26 if his/her local racing rules permit it.

 

[jrpla]

Wing to Wing

Hi;

We have a Beneteau 32, we sail a lot DDW and usually goes very well,

Here are a few tips:

Main Sail:

· Don’t be afraid if the sail is touching the spreader
· Loose your halyard
· Loose your Outhaul
· Tension first your topping lift and then your boom vang

Genoa: (with a pole)

- If light wind, loose your halyard
- Take your sheets out of your genoa cars and place a snap block on your rail at the widest part of your boat
- Watch for wind shift, you don’t necessary need to have your genoa with pole perpendicular to your boat, loose your genoa sheet if needed to have your pole like a little forward.

Also remember always put your pole to the side the wind is shifting.

 

[Witzend]

The big key for us sailing a sucessful down wind leg in a fairly short upwind/downwind course is an efficient mark rounding with snappy foredeck crew. Our club allowed the use of a second lose luff head sail.

1) When possible enter the turn at a hotter angle away from the mark so that when you complete the rounding your tight to the mark. Traffic will dictate the type of rounding you can execute.

2) Have your pole on a mast track. We used a carbon windsurfing mast with a tang on the end to push through the clue eye, light, surprisingly strong and flexible, works great. This enables a very quick set and douse so there is minimal loss of speed.
3) Play the shifts, with this pole arrangement it is very easy to jib and place the pole on the other head sail.

4) Hold on to the loose luff until the last possible minute. Again, with the pole on a car, just pull the control line up and out it comes.

Sailing downwind is not just about boat speed, it's about mark rounding execution, and where your are relative to your competitors and the wind. Do not sail out on a limb, you loose your relative perspective to your competitors.

 

[Gail R]

Listen to RichH , he is correct. I used to race my Pearson 30 JAM and almost never sailed DDW. At 12 kts true, the apparent wind speed on the sails is about 8kts. Heading just 15 degrees higher is equivalent to increasing the wind to 10 kts AND moving the AWA forward. As you can realize this is a significantly faster point of sail that more than makes up for the small additional distance sailed. The net result is you arrive at the leeward mark sooner. This is not magic it is simply basic trigonometry.

Well there's an oxymoron!

It's so strange, we tried jibing hotter angles in our Pearson 30 and nearly always did better when we went wing-and-wing. I swear, we don't suck, and neither did our competition. We won LOTS of racing going wing-and-wing.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Same experiences, different winds

It really is interesting that with different boats there are different results.

This is not an oxymoron, this is a reality!

We find gybing downwind to be worthwhile in light winds, and have enjoyed SCREAMING w/w trips across San Francisco Bay in sustained winds over 20.

We sailed in races in our one-design fleet where some w/w and some gybed.

It comes and goes based on

the boat
the helmsman
the tactician
the wind

So, in summary, there is NO single "right" answer.