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Wing on wing
Wing on wing works well but takes demanding concentration. I also use a preventer on the main and pole out the genoa. This works until you can get an angle on your destination. This is tough in high winds with waves, then I suggest dropping the main and using the jib only as it's much more forgiving. John "Gypsy Woman" Ericson 30
Wing on wing works well but takes demanding concentration. I also use a preventer on the main and pole out the genoa. This works until you can get an angle on your destination. This is tough in high winds with waves, then I suggest dropping the main and using the jib only as it's much more forgiving. John "Gypsy Woman" Ericson 30
Comfortable downwind sailing
My downwind sailing strategy depends more on the seas than on the wind. With smooth seas, I'll drop the main, raise twin headsails, and sail directly downwind. As the wind (and seas) increase, I'll keep the wind on my quarter, and as the wind dictates, reduce headsail and raise the main. Although I cover more distance "zigzagging", I don't find it lengthier, but definitly, more comfortable.
My downwind sailing strategy depends more on the seas than on the wind. With smooth seas, I'll drop the main, raise twin headsails, and sail directly downwind. As the wind (and seas) increase, I'll keep the wind on my quarter, and as the wind dictates, reduce headsail and raise the main. Although I cover more distance "zigzagging", I don't find it lengthier, but definitly, more comfortable.
Does Champaign and Caviar Count!!!
We are of the Vision 32 persuasion with a large main and small jib. Up here in Narragansett Bay and especially Greenwich Bay the wind almost demands DDW to get back to the mooring. We also don't generall have to deal with ocean swells. (Stink pot swells YES %$@#&) So we roll up the Jib, run pretty well DDW, and pop the champaign and caviar. It is a wonderful way to end a day on the bay.
We are of the Vision 32 persuasion with a large main and small jib. Up here in Narragansett Bay and especially Greenwich Bay the wind almost demands DDW to get back to the mooring. We also don't generall have to deal with ocean swells. (Stink pot swells YES %$@#&) So we roll up the Jib, run pretty well DDW, and pop the champaign and caviar. It is a wonderful way to end a day on the bay.
Jibing off broad reach works
The B&R rig on my boat, forces the Main to stay toward the center of the boat, making Wing on Wing the slowest point of sail. Racing, or Cruising, I use the Run as much as possible, causing noisy tacks, to say the least. I am able to gain about 1 to 1 1/2 knots over dead down wind wing on wing. A tip with the following sea, is to keep the rudder moving, so as to keep the boat heading as straight as possible.
The B&R rig on my boat, forces the Main to stay toward the center of the boat, making Wing on Wing the slowest point of sail. Racing, or Cruising, I use the Run as much as possible, causing noisy tacks, to say the least. I am able to gain about 1 to 1 1/2 knots over dead down wind wing on wing. A tip with the following sea, is to keep the rudder moving, so as to keep the boat heading as straight as possible.
Easy down wind sailing
I believe the easiest downwind sailing is with a genoa sail or similar large foresail, either poled out or without a pole. Wing and wing requires nearly constant attention unless far out at sea in very stable winds. In higher winds, we set up the runing backstays to add stabilty to the mast on our La Fitte 44 cutter cruiser.
I believe the easiest downwind sailing is with a genoa sail or similar large foresail, either poled out or without a pole. Wing and wing requires nearly constant attention unless far out at sea in very stable winds. In higher winds, we set up the runing backstays to add stabilty to the mast on our La Fitte 44 cutter cruiser.
Easy down wind sailing
I believe the easiest downwind sailing is with a genoa sail or similar large foresail, either poled out or without a pole. Wing and wing requires nearly constant attention unless far out at sea in very stable winds. In higher winds, we set up the runing backstays to add stabilty to the mast on our La Fitte 44 cutter cruiser.
I believe the easiest downwind sailing is with a genoa sail or similar large foresail, either poled out or without a pole. Wing and wing requires nearly constant attention unless far out at sea in very stable winds. In higher winds, we set up the runing backstays to add stabilty to the mast on our La Fitte 44 cutter cruiser.
Gybe with our Asymetric
The fastest way for us to get downwind with some breeze (over 5 knots) blowing is to broad reach with our asymetric and main around 30+ degrees above DDW. This also helps keep a breeze moving over the boat, which is critical for controlling flies off the lake, and providing a little cooling for the crew! Below 5 knots, it's the iron genny if we are cruising a leg to the next port! David Lady Lillie
The fastest way for us to get downwind with some breeze (over 5 knots) blowing is to broad reach with our asymetric and main around 30+ degrees above DDW. This also helps keep a breeze moving over the boat, which is critical for controlling flies off the lake, and providing a little cooling for the crew! Below 5 knots, it's the iron genny if we are cruising a leg to the next port! David Lady Lillie
Starboard Wing on Wing
Racing we head to the pin, around the cans too short (to sail off wind)and with dying winds at dusk we use a whisker pole in light winds and spinnaker pole to pole out as winds increase. We try to stay on a starboard tack for right of way but it gets problematical. Out in Narragansett Bay we use spinnaker pole and a preventer as winds increase. Our Santana 30 TR (1976) responds well and surfs easily. I would caution against headsail only in higher winds. Saw an O'Day with Jib only knocked down as they turned the downwind mark-very experienced crew. The CE moves forward and up. Offshore and cruising we always use a preventer.-s/v Semper Fi
Racing we head to the pin, around the cans too short (to sail off wind)and with dying winds at dusk we use a whisker pole in light winds and spinnaker pole to pole out as winds increase. We try to stay on a starboard tack for right of way but it gets problematical. Out in Narragansett Bay we use spinnaker pole and a preventer as winds increase. Our Santana 30 TR (1976) responds well and surfs easily. I would caution against headsail only in higher winds. Saw an O'Day with Jib only knocked down as they turned the downwind mark-very experienced crew. The CE moves forward and up. Offshore and cruising we always use a preventer.-s/v Semper Fi
Morgans Go DDW, But Why?
My Morgan 382 performs well, but (like many of your own boats) rocks when going DDW. The solution for me is to jibe downwind keeping the wind alternately over each quarter. It is a faster, more comfortable point of sail. In beautiful Biscayne Bay (northern Keys, south Miami), the horseflies and other bugs are kept at bay, too.
My Morgan 382 performs well, but (like many of your own boats) rocks when going DDW. The solution for me is to jibe downwind keeping the wind alternately over each quarter. It is a faster, more comfortable point of sail. In beautiful Biscayne Bay (northern Keys, south Miami), the horseflies and other bugs are kept at bay, too.
Downwind Cheating
When sailing downwind on wings, I take my lazy sheet and cinch it down to my leeward midship cleat. Works like a combination whisker pole and preventer. Never collapses. Add autopilot at the right angle and you can sail on wings all day. Only problem is swatting the flys, which love downwind conditions.
When sailing downwind on wings, I take my lazy sheet and cinch it down to my leeward midship cleat. Works like a combination whisker pole and preventer. Never collapses. Add autopilot at the right angle and you can sail on wings all day. Only problem is swatting the flys, which love downwind conditions.
Asymetric Spi and Genoa
Using the spinaker pole to keep the 130 genoa to windward worked like a charm
Using the spinaker pole to keep the 130 genoa to windward worked like a charm
Attachments
Look, lets face it........
DDW only works in 25+kts!!!! Anyone who is sailing even 20 degrees off DDW w/an Akite is just kidding themselves. Akites don't perform until 120 apparent. Above 130 they are sitting in the windshadow of the main. If you are sailing deeper than that you NEED a symetrical runner and then NOT DDW. Each boat varies slightly so to check best performance you need to watch your VMG not Boat Speed. The new JS 9000 sails with the apparent wind Always forward the beam no matter what point of sail she is on and so can always carry an Akite (except beating). Sailing deep does not mean lay back, pop a beer, watch the pretty colored thing. It means choosing the right sail for the conditions and doing your best to sail your boat to its potential. Thats how you learn to be a better sailor.
DDW only works in 25+kts!!!! Anyone who is sailing even 20 degrees off DDW w/an Akite is just kidding themselves. Akites don't perform until 120 apparent. Above 130 they are sitting in the windshadow of the main. If you are sailing deeper than that you NEED a symetrical runner and then NOT DDW. Each boat varies slightly so to check best performance you need to watch your VMG not Boat Speed. The new JS 9000 sails with the apparent wind Always forward the beam no matter what point of sail she is on and so can always carry an Akite (except beating). Sailing deep does not mean lay back, pop a beer, watch the pretty colored thing. It means choosing the right sail for the conditions and doing your best to sail your boat to its potential. Thats how you learn to be a better sailor.
what you say is true! to a point.
You can effectively get 15-20deg more but there is a catch. If you attach the tack to an adjustable line. when you want to go deeper, ease the tack line and sheet and possibly the halyard a bit. this allowes the chute to rotate to windward effectively moving the chute out from behind the main. you have to play it a bit as there is a point where it won't rotate any further and will want to drop effectively collapsing. if you are going to go any deeper then its probbably better to jib it, put a pole on it and go w on w.
You can effectively get 15-20deg more but there is a catch. If you attach the tack to an adjustable line. when you want to go deeper, ease the tack line and sheet and possibly the halyard a bit. this allowes the chute to rotate to windward effectively moving the chute out from behind the main. you have to play it a bit as there is a point where it won't rotate any further and will want to drop effectively collapsing. if you are going to go any deeper then its probbably better to jib it, put a pole on it and go w on w.
Wing on WingBut that's assuming that you want to go straight downwind. I am a novice so if I'm way off the mark just let me know. PS New carol's Rule - No heel guage she doesn't want to know just so long as no water is coming over the sides
Racing rules on this subject?
What are you allowed in terms of multiple headsails in PHRF (working off of Jose's picture of aso/genoa winged opposite- is this a legal maneuver for racing)? Is the rule anything that you can fly simultaneously that is within your specified legal sail size? Can you add a babystay and fly a cutter sail under your genoa if desired?
What are you allowed in terms of multiple headsails in PHRF (working off of Jose's picture of aso/genoa winged opposite- is this a legal maneuver for racing)? Is the rule anything that you can fly simultaneously that is within your specified legal sail size? Can you add a babystay and fly a cutter sail under your genoa if desired?
Good question Bruce
I have never used this configuration during a race but I can think of conditions where it may be advantageous to use. I know that during the Marion-Bermuda race, the use of two head sails flying from a single head stay and one wisker pole was allowed. I am not sure what the PHRF rule is but I will ask our PHRF rating Guru and let you know.
I have never used this configuration during a race but I can think of conditions where it may be advantageous to use. I know that during the Marion-Bermuda race, the use of two head sails flying from a single head stay and one wisker pole was allowed. I am not sure what the PHRF rule is but I will ask our PHRF rating Guru and let you know.
efficiciency etc
Thing 1= I know that most polar charts show something akin to 10-30 degrees above DDW is best for optimal VMG, but under heavy conditions, once you have achieved hull speed, is there any point to not just running for the mark on a windward leeward course? This subject has been much debated by a few of us crewing together. Thing 2= If you could fly double headsails or spin/genoa in a wing/wing configuration, ala Jose (which you obviously can't efficiently do with anything much above DDW), then aren't the polar charts at that point comparing apples to oranges (since they are all plotted based on a single headsail? If you can have an extra sail in a run, isn't that a bonus, over and above the polar chart? Especially if you could break into a plane. Hypothetical question: how would a double headsail setup, running DDW, theoretically compare to a single headsail reaching a bit higher (and chasing optimum VMG), in terms of boatspeed?
Thing 1= I know that most polar charts show something akin to 10-30 degrees above DDW is best for optimal VMG, but under heavy conditions, once you have achieved hull speed, is there any point to not just running for the mark on a windward leeward course? This subject has been much debated by a few of us crewing together. Thing 2= If you could fly double headsails or spin/genoa in a wing/wing configuration, ala Jose (which you obviously can't efficiently do with anything much above DDW), then aren't the polar charts at that point comparing apples to oranges (since they are all plotted based on a single headsail? If you can have an extra sail in a run, isn't that a bonus, over and above the polar chart? Especially if you could break into a plane. Hypothetical question: how would a double headsail setup, running DDW, theoretically compare to a single headsail reaching a bit higher (and chasing optimum VMG), in terms of boatspeed?
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