Double Headsail Take Two

[oreana123]

I spent a few hours today rigging my sailboat to fly two headsails. I have done this before, but now I have the time to accomplish this mod in a more professional way. Caution: this story involves Amsteel used as standing rigging. If you have a problem with Amsteel being used in this way, ignore this post. Also, if you have a water ballasted boat, and you are unable to remember to fill your ballast tanks, for heaven's sake do not imitate this rig set up, as you will no doubt drown untold innocent people. And you will give water ballasted boats in general a bad name.

Earlier iterations of double headsails on my boat has resulted in a couple of interesting effects. #1 is the ability to sail in very light air. This is due to a lot more square feet of sail area. Also, the effect of two headsails causes the mainsail telltales to fly straight out without a lot of twisting. It may be my imagination, but I think the boat points higher as well.

Anyway, I spent the morning and afternoon rigging my 26D for this project. Some of the design criteria were: the add ons had to be easily removed, the weight had to be kept to a minimum, the sprite had to allow use of the anchor and anchor platform.

The easy off solution involved snap shackles and egg hooks at all attchment points. Amsteel was used for the foremost stay, sprite sidestays and bob stay, the adjustable backstay was redesigned with Amsteel as well. And while I was at it, I installed Amsteel on the lifelines, which I have not had on the boat for over 5 years.

The sprite is made of wood laminations and was created by Joel of Ruddedcraft. The sprite needs to be bushed where the pip pin goes through it as well as coated with varnish. For the purposes of cutting and installing the Amsteel, it will work for this weekend.

There is a tensioner on the foremost stay, an overcenter type. There is a turnbuckle on the bob stay, and turnbuckles on the sidestays. The backstay opposes the masthead foremost stay, and has a 4 to 1 block and tackle. (there are pelican hooks on the lifelines to adjust their tension).

Tomorrow I intend to get the boat out of its storage spce and clean it up. I will fit the sails on it, and work on the sheet angles. I intend to go sailing early Monday when the catabatic winds are best.

 

[oreana123]

Here is the sprite. It is attached to the bow pulpit, in the same holes that the mast is pinned to when in transit. I have a large diameter pip pin for this purpose, the same size as the one used on the mast base/tabernacle

 

[oreana123]

It is worth noting that the original standing rigging is all there in stainless steel wire, except for the backstay, which does not hold the mast up anyway.

I don't know if this pic will turn out, but here is the masthead and spreaders.

 

[oreana123]

OK I have a 25 gallon water tank under the vee berth. Despite this extra weight, it is easy to see that one could overcanvas the boat. But for sure this will power the boat up, to about 10 knots of wind before some sails have to come down. I am getting a block for the big foresail halyard tomorrow.

I am looking forward to downwind sailing with two headsails poled out on opposite sides. Broad reach should be a blast for sure. I have a genoa from a 35 foot boat cut down to fit this big forestay. I also have a 150 genoa and a working jib. I'll try all 3 sails in as many combinations as I can.

I am making strops for the sails from leftover pieces of Amsteel. I'd really like to get a high cut Yankee sail to overlap the working jib, I may be able to make one this winter. More pics tomorrow.

 

[Sumner]

.....I am looking forward to downwind sailing with two headsails poled out on opposite sides. ....

Thanks for posting this and hopefully the results. The two head sails out front without running the main downwind out on the ocean was illustrated in one of the magazines I received by one boat owner. They really liked it vs. dealing with accidental jibes using the main and one foresail. I think they sailed slightly off the wind and only had a pole on one side. I'll have to see if I can find the article again.

I was hoping to try this when we were out on the last trip as I can hook up the original forestay inside of the furler in just a minute and had the hank-on jib and Genoa on the boat and the old jib halyard, but never did. For us the two forestays would be very close together.

Are you going to hank-on the sail out on the sprite while still on the trailer or can you reach out there to do it on the water?

Please post followup pictures and your feelings on this,

Sum

Our Endeavour 37

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Our MacGregor S Pages

Mac-Venture Links

 

[oreana123]

Hi Sum

One thing about my set up is that it is not a cutter rig. There is easily 4 feet of space between the original forestay and my newer foremost stay. This is important when tacking going to weather. It has been my experience that the big foresail will eventually come across in a tack as long as it does not snag on anything. I was just reading a story with pictures of a catamaran sailor who flys two headsail to go downwind. He flys one with no stay, and flys the normal headsail (roller furler) on the opposite side. Then he drops the main into his dutchman setup and lies on top of the mainsail/boom in a very comfortable position.

Having the center of pressure so far forward has some great benefits. The boat will neither jibe or round up. The ride is very stable, especially on a catamaran. The autopilot can keep the boat on track without a lot of correcting. And I think it looks cool!

I am excited about going sailing. Last month I crewed on a powerboat coming down from Ketchikan to Anacortes. It was definitely not sailing! 700 miles listening to two engines.....

You bet I'll take pics, wait til you see tomorrows...

 

[oreana123]

Also, if you were going to be running DDW for a while, it is possible to hank two sails on one forestay (I know you have a roller furler so it won't work for you). You have to alternate hanks as the halyard is pulled up. It is then possible to extend a pole from clew to clew and form an upside down kite shape that will smooth out rough water and allow you to ignore the sails for a while.

 

[Sumner]

.....Having the center of pressure so far forward has some great benefits. The boat will neither jibe or round up. The ride is very stable, especially on a catamaran. The autopilot can keep the boat on track without a lot of correcting. And I think it looks cool!.....

Those were exactly the points they were making in the article in the magazine. When we finally make it back out with the Mac I've got to try it.

You need the right conditions if you are slow like we are, enough water in front of you with a pretty consistent wind direction to make it really a good deal. We had a time or two down in Florida where that would of worked. I was too lazy or tired to do it though. Now I regret that. Some place like Lake Powell for us will complicate things. I think you will have fun with it even on a smaller body of water.

Our forestays are two close together to run two headsails cutter rigged. I went to the trouble of making an easy attach point for the old forestay as I'd read that article and also wanted it there just in case we ever bought or made a storm sail that was a hank-on.

I'll bet the powerboat trip was still a neat trip despite the engine noise. Pretty country,

Sum

Our Endeavour 37

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Our MacGregor S Pages

Mac-Venture Links

 

[Cruiser1]

I went to the trouble of making an easy attach point for the old forestay as I'd read that article and also wanted it there just in case we ever bought or made a storm sail that was a hank-on.

I now have my boat in the backyard for the very first time with the intention of spending 3-4 months getting it all up to scratch before taking it back to mast-up storage at Xmas time. One of the things I wanted to sort out is the CDI furler arrangment.

Sumner, I gather from your previous posts that you run a furler but also have an additional forestay mounted slighty forward of the furler drum. As far as I can see that is the only practical way to be able to change headsails when a CDI furler is fitted - is that correct? (i.e. my furler is only a single track furler.) It looks like it would be very difficult to be able to change headsails in the furler track if the weather was building up.

My boat came with 2 mains, a 150 % genoa (appears unused) and a storm jib (which was/is the headsail mounted on the CDI FF2 furler). I imagine I will be able to fit the genoa to the CDI furler but if not I will have to purchase a new standard headsail. Either way in heavy weather I would then furl the headsail and hoist the hanked storm jib on the outside forestay. As a matter of interest the 2nd main and the 150% genoa where made by Doyles in 2001 for a PO living in Orem, Utah! - the invoice came with all the boat paperwork. I even have the log book originally set up by the Utah owners!!).

I can't work out why the storm jib is fitted to the furler. I can only assume that the original standard size jib wore out or that perhaps the genoa proved too large or too heavier weight for the furler - although the invioce list it as 'MacGregor 26 Roler Furler Genoa 150%, 5.9oz Dacron'. Alternatively POs found the boat difficult to handle with the genoa due to the standard tiller (one would just think it was a matter of furling it in a little if that was the case??) - I have no problems at all with the tiller using the current storm jib.

Does this all make sense to you or am I missing some vital issue hear?

I will be replacing all the rigging wire but it concerns me that the forestay wire in the CDI furler is only 1/8". Is it possible to use a heavier gauge forestay in these furlers?

 

[MrBill_FLL]

I like how high the sprite sits.

The head sail will not overlap the jib? like a yankee? did you make up the headsail?

and do you think you'll need any bracing on the pulpit?

good luck!

 

[Kestle]

Oreana:

I would like to hear an update on you rig. Did you find it made more hobby horsing in heavier seas? Also, did you have windows cut for visibility?

This post came up today, even the prior ones are much older...but it piqued my interest, as I'm trying to design one, but I would be running the fore stay differently as I'm not keen on loading the rail that way.

Jeff

 

[Sumner]

....Sumner, I gather from your previous posts that you run a furler but also have an additional forestay mounted slighty forward of the furler drum. As far as I can see that is the only practical way to be able to change headsails when a CDI furler is fitted - is that correct?

No, the 'additional forestay' if used is an 'inner forestay'. It pins inside/aft of the furler only when needed. I thought I had a picture of it pinned at the same time the furler was attached, but can't find it. I just added some pictures and more info about it here....

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/macgregor2/rigging-17.html

If that doesn't explain it let me know.

In this picture...

..you can see the furler and the old jib halyard attached to the gin pole for raising the mast. I was tensioning the new standing rigging. The inner stay is there attached to the hound where the jib block is. In the picture though it is back against the mast and tied there. When pinned it is just behind the furler where the halyard is in the picture excepts it attaches to the deck where the bottom front arrow is.

Hope this helps some,

Sum

Our Endeavour 37

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Our MacGregor S Pages

Mac-Venture Links

 

[Cruiser1]

No, the 'additional forestay' if used is an 'inner forestay'. It pins inside/aft of the furler only when needed. I thought I had a picture of it pinned at the same time the furler was attached, but can't find it. I just added some pictures and more info about it here....

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/macgregor2/rigging-17.html

If that doesn't explain it let me know.

Thanks for that detailed explaination Sumner. I can see that I need to put the rigging replacement further down the long list, so I can think more about it, as there is no point have new rigging made up if there is a chance I will be shifting attachment points. I was going to replace the rigging before I moved the boat under the house in order to do the other modications and maintenance but think I will now do the rigging last.

I gather you have used aluminium mounting blocks either end of the inner forestay lever but used mild steel for the lever itself - are you happy with the strength of those aluminium blocks?

I like the arrangement you have used to lift the roller furler up the mast and installing the Johnson Lever - I will seriously need to think that one through.

Seeing you have looked at allowing for a hanked on storm jib I gather it is not practical to change headsails on the roller furler foil whilst at sea. Is that a correct assumption? What size headsail do you have on your furler foil and what grade of sail cloth?

I imagine furling in a genoa to 'storm jib' size would leave a very bulky arrangement and put undesirable stress and sag on the foil and furler. I imagine that having the forestay and luff tight in a very strong wind would be the difference between making headway and not making headway. What are your thoughts on doing that Sumner?

 

[Sumner]

.....I gather you have used aluminium mounting blocks either end of the inner forestay lever but used mild steel for the lever itself - are you happy with the strength of those aluminium blocks? .

I did like the strength of the steel over aluminum for that bracket and feel ok with the aluminum blocks, but this is all 'take a good guess' engineering .

......I like the arrangement you have used to lift the roller furler up the mast and installing the Johnson Lever - I will seriously need to think that one through...

I really like the Johnson lever and it is a little longer than most use as it is the next one up in strength. I changed the forestay to 5/32's and all of the fittings and turnbuckle in the furler drum to 5/16 of an inch over the stock 1/4 feeling that I wanted it all near to the same strength. It is overkill, but I'm happy with it.

Also all of this moves the sails center of effort up some and more weight aloft which some won't put up with in an effort to go fast. Ruth and I are cruisers and are looking for strength and functionality first. So you have to decide where you are before making any of these mods. Ruth loves that she can now see under the foresail and I like that also. We might have to bring it in a little sooner than someone else, but we don't care.

As to the storm sail. That probably isn't needed by 90% of the guys/gals that owns one of these boats and I don't know if we will get or make one ourselves yet, but we are rigged for it if we do. Yes we couldn't get the sail on the furler down and a storm sail up very easily.

The only real reason that I would see for one is if you are out multiple days and in larger water and want to be able to sail out of a bad situation if for some reason you loose your outboard. Those are a lot of things that have to go bad before you need one, but we might go to the Sea of Cortez at some point and I'd like to have one if we did. When we were 1/2 way of the way across Florida Bay out of sight of land it would of been nice to of had one just in that off chance you lost the outboard and weather arrived. There again it is only 12 feet deep out there, and we have good anchors and also have a second outboard on board, so that wasn't much of a chance we were taking there. I feel the Sea of Cortez though is some place you should be as self-reliant as possible if you are going off on your own there. So far we have never been in a position out on open water where we would of needed a storm sail to get to some safey. Hopefully we never will be. I would like running the two headsails opposite each other though and the inner forestay should make that possible.

Martin who made our sails feels that under most situations they are strong enough to be reefed in and used kind of like a storm sail. He always tells me, "just bring it in to it is the size of a hanky". I think the consensus though is that as soon as you reef it in more than 10% to 20% that it doesn't have the shape of a 'good' sail anymore. The center of effort is also raising and that isn't good. There again if you aren't racing anymore just trying to survive what difference does it make. Ours is a 135 and we went with that so that if it is brought in to about a 100 that it is still pretty efficient.

Oreana and others on here have way more experience with sails and sailing, so I would really pay attention to their suggestions.

On the rigging, with a hand swag tool it wasn't hard to make up new shrouds and a backstay. We had the forestay made up by riggingonly.com. It wasn't expensive and they have the rotary swage tool needed to swage the turnbuckle and top fitting on the forestay in our case.

Good luck,

Sum

Our Endeavour 37

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Our MacGregor S Pages

Mac-Venture Links

 

[Cruiser1]

I changed the forestay to 5/32's.........It is overkill, but I'm happy with it.

Seems likegood thinking to me...... I suspect that stay gets a good workout with the furler on it.

As to the storm sail. That probably isn't needed by 90% of the guys/gals that owns one of these boats and I don't know if we will get or make one ourselves yet, but we are rigged for it if we do. Yes we couldn't get the sail on the furler down and a storm sail up very easily.

I had a very scary experience in my yonger days without my storm jib set up correctly and it has stayed with me for a long time!!

On the rigging, with a hand swag tool it wasn't hard to make up new shrouds and a backstay. We had the forestay made up by riggingonly.com. It wasn't expensive and they have the rotary swage tool needed to swage the turnbuckle and top fitting on the forestay in our case.

Thanks for that feedback on the swagging. I can see I will need to get a professional to do the forestay. My current side stays have 2 swages on each thimble and that is covered up by the white plastic protective tubing. I guess 2 swages should not be needed, but if I am doing them myself it would be a bit of extra insurance.

 

[oreana123]

Guidelines for correct swaging is available online in Advisory Circular 43.13-1a or AC 43.13-1a. Swaging technology was developed by Bell Telephone laboratories. One swage is sufficient, the second swage covers the sharp end of the wire. I don't know of a cheap swager for a turnbuckle end, where the wire fits into the threaded piece. Otherwise, the hand swager is definitely strong enough. In addition to a hand swager, consider getting a swage go-no go gauge to verify complete swaging. Cheap insurance.

 

[Cruiser1]

In addition to a hand swager, consider getting a swage go-no go gauge to verify complete swaging. Cheap insurance.

Thanks for the tip Oreana.

 

[Faris]

Hmm ... this is pretty inspiring. It's got me thinking about trying something like this with my V22. Two reasons:

1. The oversized roach of the current mainsail causes weatherhelm in most conditions except when winds are heavy enough to reef. Of course, as wind picks up, weatherhelm tends to increase, and so does drag from countering the weatherhelm. So, she has a hard time picking up to hull speed except by brute force of high winds.
2. I have a 150% genoa that helps her do pretty well in light winds (though it surprisingly does little/nothing to counter the incessant weatherhelm), but in light winds, even with the genoa, she points miserably. She definitely does much better the more headsail I give her, so my belief is that a second headsail might finally do the trick in light winds.

I've considered, in the past, that pointing performance could be improved with the addition of a traveler, but I have proven this, to my satisfaction, to be false. Having manually held the boom in the same position the traveler would if I were pointing, I found that this gives me a few more degrees windward in good winds, but does nothing for light wind pointing.

The real issue, is that the keel has to be moving a certain speed to be effective. In light winds, the keel can almost as easily move sideways as forward, and with the center of effort aft, this makes matters worse.

I proved this theory this weekend. We were crossing the Strait of Juan de Fuca (about 20 nm across open water), and winds were very light, blowing directly from our destination. We tried beating, but couldn't get much closer than about 70 degrees off the wind on either tack. Needless to say, this could make that a very long 20 nm, especially since we were really only moving about 2 kts across the water and against a 1 kts tidal current. In other words, we were making absolutely no progress windward toward our destination.

Finally, it occurred to me that if I could just increase our water speed a tiny bit, the keel would start to do its job and we might be able to point a few degrees higher. So, I fired up the motor and left it just above idle (to keep from fouling the plugs). The results were surprising. Just that extra tiny bit of thrust allowed us to point to 45 degrees and accelerate to 4-5 kts. Keep in mind this is in winds of about the same speed.

This convinced me that just a tiny bit of extra thrust makes a bunch of difference in pointing ability and has better than a linear effect on water speed. Could a larger genoa do the same? I don't think so. Everything over 100% just moves the center of effort aft, right? By my calculations, with the oversized roach and the 150% genoa, this moves 25% of the sail area aft of the mast. If my math is close, I think the boat is designed such that only about 13% of the area is aft of the mast with a 150% genoa. That extra 10% means that fully 10% of the wind's energy contributes to weather helm. Even in just 15 kt winds, that's pretty significant. Again, if my math is correct, the resulting pressure is about 38 lbs of pressure at the rudder. That means that the rudder is pushing against 38 lbs of weatherhelm. Anecdotally, that's about what it feels like at the tiller (accounting for the leverage of the tiller).

It's pretty difficult to calculate exactly what this translates into in terms of drag through the water, but I'm going to say that it has about the same effect of sailing with the motor down.

In light winds, it just means that more effort is directed nearer to the keel and proportionately less lift is generated forward. I'm inclined to think that an additional headsail would alter this to a more favorable balance. Also, as I think about it, it could well be the case that in light winds, simply using the genoa with a slightly-reefed main wouldn't do the trick. Decreasing sail area seems counterintuitive, but it may actually help in this instance.

Hmm ...

 

[timebandit]

Perhaps your main outhaul is a bit to tight causing it to weather vane instead of driving the boat?

Or maybe easing the main just a little?

Most proponets like the max draft of the main at about 50%, a little halyard adjustment (or cunningham), a little outhaul adjustment, more curvature for light winds and less for heavy winds.

Hmm ... this is pretty inspiring. It's got me thinking about trying something like this with my V22. Two reasons:

1. The oversized roach of the current mainsail causes weatherhelm in most conditions except when winds are heavy enough to reef. Of course, as wind picks up, weatherhelm tends to increase, and so does drag from countering the weatherhelm. So, she has a hard time picking up to hull speed except by brute force of high winds.
2. I have a 150% genoa that helps her do pretty well in light winds (though it surprisingly does little/nothing to counter the incessant weatherhelm), but in light winds, even with the genoa, she points miserably. She definitely does much better the more headsail I give her, so my belief is that a second headsail might finally do the trick in light winds.

I've considered, in the past, that pointing performance could be improved with the addition of a traveler, but I have proven this, to my satisfaction, to be false. Having manually held the boom in the same position the traveler would if I were pointing, I found that this gives me a few more degrees windward in good winds, but does nothing for light wind pointing.

The real issue, is that the keel has to be moving a certain speed to be effective. In light winds, the keel can almost as easily move sideways as forward, and with the center of effort aft, this makes matters worse.

I proved this theory this weekend. We were crossing the Strait of Juan de Fuca (about 20 nm across open water), and winds were very light, blowing directly from our destination. We tried beating, but couldn't get much closer than about 70 degrees off the wind on either tack. Needless to say, this could make that a very long 20 nm, especially since we were really only moving about 2 kts across the water and against a 1 kts tidal current. In other words, we were making absolutely no progress windward toward our destination.

Finally, it occurred to me that if I could just increase our water speed a tiny bit, the keel would start to do its job and we might be able to point a few degrees higher. So, I fired up the motor and left it just above idle (to keep from fouling the plugs). The results were surprising. Just that extra tiny bit of thrust allowed us to point to 45 degrees and accelerate to 4-5 kts. Keep in mind this is in winds of about the same speed.

This convinced me that just a tiny bit of extra thrust makes a bunch of difference in pointing ability and has better than a linear effect on water speed. Could a larger genoa do the same? I don't think so. Everything over 100% just moves the center of effort aft, right? By my calculations, with the oversized roach and the 150% genoa, this moves 25% of the sail area aft of the mast. If my math is close, I think the boat is designed such that only about 13% of the area is aft of the mast with a 150% genoa. That extra 10% means that fully 10% of the wind's energy contributes to weather helm. Even in just 15 kt winds, that's pretty significant. Again, if my math is correct, the resulting pressure is about 38 lbs of pressure at the rudder. That means that the rudder is pushing against 38 lbs of weatherhelm. Anecdotally, that's about what it feels like at the tiller (accounting for the leverage of the tiller).

It's pretty difficult to calculate exactly what this translates into in terms of drag through the water, but I'm going to say that it has about the same effect of sailing with the motor down.

In light winds, it just means that more effort is directed nearer to the keel and proportionately less lift is generated forward. I'm inclined to think that an additional headsail would alter this to a more favorable balance. Also, as I think about it, it could well be the case that in light winds, simply using the genoa with a slightly-reefed main wouldn't do the trick. Decreasing sail area seems counterintuitive, but it may actually help in this instance.

Hmm ...

 

[Faris]

Perhaps your main outhaul is a bit to tight causing it to weather vane instead of driving the boat?

Outhaul and vang both obviously have an effect, but not enough.

Or maybe easing the main just a little?

Of course, less main eases weatherhelm, but anything short of luffing the main results in pretty significant weatherhelm in stiff winds. What's more, with the genoa trimmed appropriately, it has a tendency to backwind the main unless I keep the main just a little sheeted in.

Believe me, I've tried just about everything to no avail. The only thing I haven't really tried is seeing if the effect of reefing to ease weatherhelm is worth it, or if the reduced sail area counteracts any benefit. I really like the idea, however, of adding more effort farther forward.