The Hunter water ballast boats (I have a 1995H23.5) have neither traveller nor cunningham. For that matter, we have a single fixed jib fairlead. No movable blocks; and no inboard/outboard rails. I do have roller furling on the jib. I'm only half-way through my second reading of the Sail Trim Guide, but Don, would you consider someday posting an addendum of the compromises we have to make to get the most from our rigging? I bought my boat before I knew anything about sail trim. I love the boat and would still buy it now that I know better, but the mistake in my initial thinking is interesting. I knew the Hunter 23.5/240/260 rigging was "simple" in that it was missing traveller, etc, but I figured I wouldn't be racing and don't need to go anywhere fast on my 1 mile by 7.5 mile lake. What I didn't realize was that the missing sail trim controls reduce my options for depowering the sails, which translates to reducing heel which translates to my wife insisting it's time to head back to the marina slip! Sure, I sail on reefed main alone when the wind is strongest, but I'd like to make the most of my sails at all times and can't exactly follow the Guide.
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Alan
NoNoNoNo!!
Don't accept the compromises. Change your boat. Add the tracks, add a cunningham it's easy and cheap. Also put a vang on if you don't already have one. Just because Hunter built the boat without these things doesn't mean you can't add them. I've added and changed just about every sail control on my boat in order to make the boat sail better.
Don't accept the compromises. Change your boat. Add the tracks, add a cunningham it's easy and cheap. Also put a vang on if you don't already have one. Just because Hunter built the boat without these things doesn't mean you can't add them. I've added and changed just about every sail control on my boat in order to make the boat sail better.
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Mike
I would be interested too
I have an Oday 23 that lacks some of the same sail controls Rick mentioned. While I plan to add some of the things mentioned, the design of the boat conspires against simple solutions. Not to mention that I would rather use my limited free time to sail rather than install new hardware. I would be very interested in that addendum to the Sail Trim Guide too.
I have an Oday 23 that lacks some of the same sail controls Rick mentioned. While I plan to add some of the things mentioned, the design of the boat conspires against simple solutions. Not to mention that I would rather use my limited free time to sail rather than install new hardware. I would be very interested in that addendum to the Sail Trim Guide too.
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Don Guillette
Don, Trimming Without Traveler Or Cunningham
Rick: I've run into these questions before regarding the Hunter. There was a Hunter owner a while back on the Forum who was a cracker jack at getting the most out of the Hunter without the the normals controls that most boats have. I wish I could remember his name. Maybe he'll read thsi message and help us out. Your wife must be my wifes sister as my wifes like the boat to be on an even keel also. I try to keep the boat that way because I want her to keep sailing with me. It is easy for me to control my boat because I have every sail trim control that Garhauer makes and I use them all. I believe your boat is a fractional rig, which means the mainsail is the engine. The lack of controls make for a tough situation when you are trying to get 100% efficiency from your sails. You could add a cunningham or just use the mainsail halyard but the cunningham is easier. The traveler is a big control to be missing. As Alan suggested, you could add a traveler. Contact Garahuer and see what they have. Ask for Guido and tell him Don Guillette (Gillette like the razor blade) told you to call. Do you have an outhaul? If you don't that is another big problem. Trying to otain max efficiency without the controls is like trying to fly a plane with no flaps. It ain't going to work. Another problem Hunter boats WITH traverlers have is where they put the traveler. It is on a boom rest and very close to the boom. Because of that placement, the pulling angle stinks compared to boats where the traveler is mounted in a lower position. I often wonder if teh people that design these boat ever sail them. Most of these controls are cheap to include.
Rick: I've run into these questions before regarding the Hunter. There was a Hunter owner a while back on the Forum who was a cracker jack at getting the most out of the Hunter without the the normals controls that most boats have. I wish I could remember his name. Maybe he'll read thsi message and help us out. Your wife must be my wifes sister as my wifes like the boat to be on an even keel also. I try to keep the boat that way because I want her to keep sailing with me. It is easy for me to control my boat because I have every sail trim control that Garhauer makes and I use them all. I believe your boat is a fractional rig, which means the mainsail is the engine. The lack of controls make for a tough situation when you are trying to get 100% efficiency from your sails. You could add a cunningham or just use the mainsail halyard but the cunningham is easier. The traveler is a big control to be missing. As Alan suggested, you could add a traveler. Contact Garahuer and see what they have. Ask for Guido and tell him Don Guillette (Gillette like the razor blade) told you to call. Do you have an outhaul? If you don't that is another big problem. Trying to otain max efficiency without the controls is like trying to fly a plane with no flaps. It ain't going to work. Another problem Hunter boats WITH traverlers have is where they put the traveler. It is on a boom rest and very close to the boom. Because of that placement, the pulling angle stinks compared to boats where the traveler is mounted in a lower position. I often wonder if teh people that design these boat ever sail them. Most of these controls are cheap to include.
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Rick Macdonald
Don, Trimming Without Traveler Or Cunningham
Yes, I do have an outhaul and a fractional rig (swept back spreaders; no backstay). I have been wanting to add a traveller, and am not against the idea at all. And a cunningham too. On my 23.5, the mainsheet attaches to a U-bolt that is at the level of the seats that you sit on. The seats wrap around the front of the cockpit as opposed to the newer 240 where the seats are only on the sides and the cockpit floor runs right up to the bottom of the cabin doorway with only an inch or so lip. I get to step up on the seat, then down into the cabin. I think placing the traveller track a few inches aft of the present position wouldn't work so well. That would put it lower, on the cockpit floor, but it could only be as wide as the cockpit floor unless it straddled the span from seat to seat. Placing it somewhere between a couple of inches forward (near the U-bolt) and over a foot forward (up against the bulkhead wall), right on the seat, is what others have done with these Hunters. It gives 2 or 3 feet more room for the track. Don, I read where you don't like curved tracks and replaced yours with a flat one. The seat surface where the traveller track would sit curves a bit, such that the center point is maybe an inch or two higher than on the sides. Is this negligible, or enough that I'd have the symptoms that you describe where you have to release the mainsheet in order to move the traveller? I don't know the exact curvature, but how much would be considered negligible before you'd want to somehow put a flat track on that curved surface?
Yes, I do have an outhaul and a fractional rig (swept back spreaders; no backstay). I have been wanting to add a traveller, and am not against the idea at all. And a cunningham too. On my 23.5, the mainsheet attaches to a U-bolt that is at the level of the seats that you sit on. The seats wrap around the front of the cockpit as opposed to the newer 240 where the seats are only on the sides and the cockpit floor runs right up to the bottom of the cabin doorway with only an inch or so lip. I get to step up on the seat, then down into the cabin. I think placing the traveller track a few inches aft of the present position wouldn't work so well. That would put it lower, on the cockpit floor, but it could only be as wide as the cockpit floor unless it straddled the span from seat to seat. Placing it somewhere between a couple of inches forward (near the U-bolt) and over a foot forward (up against the bulkhead wall), right on the seat, is what others have done with these Hunters. It gives 2 or 3 feet more room for the track. Don, I read where you don't like curved tracks and replaced yours with a flat one. The seat surface where the traveller track would sit curves a bit, such that the center point is maybe an inch or two higher than on the sides. Is this negligible, or enough that I'd have the symptoms that you describe where you have to release the mainsheet in order to move the traveller? I don't know the exact curvature, but how much would be considered negligible before you'd want to somehow put a flat track on that curved surface?
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Don Guillette
Don, Trimming Without Traveler Or Cunningham
Rick: A 1" or 2" rise won't matter. As I mentioned, give Guido at Garhauer a call and see what he suggests. These people are genius when it comes to marine hardware. You might want to their web site -www.Garhauermarine.com- and check out their travelers in their catalog. To see what I'm talking about on the curved track traveler, take a look at an older Catalina 30 in your marina. Some designer at Catalina thought the idea of configuring the 6' track to the curve of the cabin top would be esthetically pleasing, which it probably is, but straight tracks work better than curved ones. They then compounded the problem by using a traveler car that consisted of 4 crappy rubber rollers, which deteriorate over time, and become loaded with friction. Also, the traveler car they used is very small and does not distribute the load properly. Couple that with the low mechanical advantage they use and you'll see why I hated the contraption. The next time you go to a boat show, stop at the Garhauer marine booth and take a look at their traveler. Play with it a bit. You can actually put the car on one end of the track and send it to the other side with a flick of your finger!!
Rick: A 1" or 2" rise won't matter. As I mentioned, give Guido at Garhauer a call and see what he suggests. These people are genius when it comes to marine hardware. You might want to their web site -www.Garhauermarine.com- and check out their travelers in their catalog. To see what I'm talking about on the curved track traveler, take a look at an older Catalina 30 in your marina. Some designer at Catalina thought the idea of configuring the 6' track to the curve of the cabin top would be esthetically pleasing, which it probably is, but straight tracks work better than curved ones. They then compounded the problem by using a traveler car that consisted of 4 crappy rubber rollers, which deteriorate over time, and become loaded with friction. Also, the traveler car they used is very small and does not distribute the load properly. Couple that with the low mechanical advantage they use and you'll see why I hated the contraption. The next time you go to a boat show, stop at the Garhauer marine booth and take a look at their traveler. Play with it a bit. You can actually put the car on one end of the track and send it to the other side with a flick of your finger!!
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Rick Macdonald
Traveller hardware
Thanks, Don. BTW, besides my Hunter 23.5, the only other sailboat in my marina is a Macgregor 25 from the mid-70's. I had started to look at traveller hardware earlier this year. One of the reasons that I postponed the project is that there are many different hardware setups for the blocks and cleats at ends of the track. I need to do some research about what works well, especially when single-handing. IE, can it be raised and lowered when sitting at the aft end of the cockpit, on the windward side, without getting up and moving? I'll look at the Garhauer site.
Thanks, Don. BTW, besides my Hunter 23.5, the only other sailboat in my marina is a Macgregor 25 from the mid-70's. I had started to look at traveller hardware earlier this year. One of the reasons that I postponed the project is that there are many different hardware setups for the blocks and cleats at ends of the track. I need to do some research about what works well, especially when single-handing. IE, can it be raised and lowered when sitting at the aft end of the cockpit, on the windward side, without getting up and moving? I'll look at the Garhauer site.
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Don Guillette
Trimming Without traveler Or Cunnigham
Rick: I think you are going to like what you see at Garahuer. Aditionally, they can custom design anything you want. For example, with the curved track traveler setup on my Catalina 30, (before I figured out what the real problem was), I thought it was the poor mechanical advantage of they original equipment so I had Garhauer double the blocks. Actually, one of the reasons was I didn't want to spring for the big $$ hit for their straight track. I spent about $80 customizing a poor system and the first time I used it it sucked. It was hardly any improvement. I should have gone for the Garhauer straight track right away. I was able to get some of my $80 back as I sold the upgraded unit to a sailor on the Catalina list. As far as handling the lines, I have mainsheet, traveler lines, boom vang and adjustable fairlead lines lead back to the helm. The reason I did this was my wife doesn't like the boat to heel over and will only take the helm when we are on an even keel. The problem I was having was a catch 22. When the boat heeled over, she would not take the helm until I got her back on its feet. To do that I had to go forward to tend the lines but she would not take the helm. Now, with the lines led back to the helm, I don't have to bother her as I can do it all myself. Also, I have a winch handle from Garhauer that is about 3'long (yup, that's 3 feet not 3 inches) so I can also tweak the winch also. Necessity is the mother of invention!! For anyone reading this - If you have an older Catalina that still has the old, black Seaway blocks and are sick of pushing and pulling your boom by hand you should consider the Garhauer mainsheet conversion kit. All those crappy, friction filled Seaway blocks are repalced and my 9 year old grandaughter can now handle the mainsheet. She likes it now.
Rick: I think you are going to like what you see at Garahuer. Aditionally, they can custom design anything you want. For example, with the curved track traveler setup on my Catalina 30, (before I figured out what the real problem was), I thought it was the poor mechanical advantage of they original equipment so I had Garhauer double the blocks. Actually, one of the reasons was I didn't want to spring for the big $$ hit for their straight track. I spent about $80 customizing a poor system and the first time I used it it sucked. It was hardly any improvement. I should have gone for the Garhauer straight track right away. I was able to get some of my $80 back as I sold the upgraded unit to a sailor on the Catalina list. As far as handling the lines, I have mainsheet, traveler lines, boom vang and adjustable fairlead lines lead back to the helm. The reason I did this was my wife doesn't like the boat to heel over and will only take the helm when we are on an even keel. The problem I was having was a catch 22. When the boat heeled over, she would not take the helm until I got her back on its feet. To do that I had to go forward to tend the lines but she would not take the helm. Now, with the lines led back to the helm, I don't have to bother her as I can do it all myself. Also, I have a winch handle from Garhauer that is about 3'long (yup, that's 3 feet not 3 inches) so I can also tweak the winch also. Necessity is the mother of invention!! For anyone reading this - If you have an older Catalina that still has the old, black Seaway blocks and are sick of pushing and pulling your boom by hand you should consider the Garhauer mainsheet conversion kit. All those crappy, friction filled Seaway blocks are repalced and my 9 year old grandaughter can now handle the mainsheet. She likes it now.
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Alan
So now to sum up..
In order to properly handle your boat you need to be able to shape the sails. The only way that this can be done is with sail controls; there is no alternative. If you have them practice, if you don't get them.
In order to properly handle your boat you need to be able to shape the sails. The only way that this can be done is with sail controls; there is no alternative. If you have them practice, if you don't get them.
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Roger
Mid-boom sheeting and vang
Don, As a member of the "75%" I am working on going up the learning curve. In my experimenting on my 1982 Catalina 27 with mid-boom sheeting, adjusting the vang (which is led to the cockpit)only seems to have effect when on a broad reach or run, keeping the boom from rising. Moving the traveller, however, makes a big difference in pointing ability. Is the vang compromised in changing sail shape when going into then wind on the mid-boom sheeting arrangement? Thanks for all your expertise- most helpful! Roger C27 #5012 & Mabel Cape Cod
Don, As a member of the "75%" I am working on going up the learning curve. In my experimenting on my 1982 Catalina 27 with mid-boom sheeting, adjusting the vang (which is led to the cockpit)only seems to have effect when on a broad reach or run, keeping the boom from rising. Moving the traveller, however, makes a big difference in pointing ability. Is the vang compromised in changing sail shape when going into then wind on the mid-boom sheeting arrangement? Thanks for all your expertise- most helpful! Roger C27 #5012 & Mabel Cape Cod
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Paul
Now for a slightly different viewpoint...
Look, don't let these guys with racing rigs tell you that you can't trim your mainsail without 15 different extra controls. The traveler changes the angle of attack of the main without allowing the boom to rise. You can do the same thing using your vang and mainsheet together. The cunningham tightens the luff of the mainsail. You have another line that does the same thing: the main halyard. The people doing most of the talking in this thread have boats set up for racing, with mainsails cut very flat. They need an adjustable outhaul to give the main more draft off the wind. Your crusing sails are already cut with plenty of draft. Tighten your outhaul and forget it. And anyway, tugging at the edges of your sails doesn't really have that much effect anyway. 90% of the draft depth and draft position characteristics of your sails was sewn into them at the loft. Most people don't know how to set the angle of attack properly. If you learn how to do that, then you'll be passing longer, more expensive boats all the time. Learn what the tell-tales mean and what changes to make to get them streaming. When you get overpowered, reef! It's not a machismo contest, it's just sailing. Reduce your sails until the boat stands up and lets itself be steered. OK, "experts," let me have it. Paul sv Escape Artist h336
Look, don't let these guys with racing rigs tell you that you can't trim your mainsail without 15 different extra controls. The traveler changes the angle of attack of the main without allowing the boom to rise. You can do the same thing using your vang and mainsheet together. The cunningham tightens the luff of the mainsail. You have another line that does the same thing: the main halyard. The people doing most of the talking in this thread have boats set up for racing, with mainsails cut very flat. They need an adjustable outhaul to give the main more draft off the wind. Your crusing sails are already cut with plenty of draft. Tighten your outhaul and forget it. And anyway, tugging at the edges of your sails doesn't really have that much effect anyway. 90% of the draft depth and draft position characteristics of your sails was sewn into them at the loft. Most people don't know how to set the angle of attack properly. If you learn how to do that, then you'll be passing longer, more expensive boats all the time. Learn what the tell-tales mean and what changes to make to get them streaming. When you get overpowered, reef! It's not a machismo contest, it's just sailing. Reduce your sails until the boat stands up and lets itself be steered. OK, "experts," let me have it. Paul sv Escape Artist h336
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Don Guillette
Trimming Without Traveler Or Cunningham
Paul Of Clinton, CT : I have a different view. First of all there is not a racing way and a cruising way to trim your sails - there is only a right way and a wrong way. Those are not my words but those of Dennis Connors, but I agree completly with him. Most production boats come with the following mainsail trim controls: Mainsheet, boom vang, outhaul, traveler, halyard and some have the ability to bend the mast. The jib sail trim controls are fairleads, halyard, jib sheet and mast bend and some have inside and outside tracks. When you buy a boat those controls are part of the purchase price so, since you paid for them why not use them. The reason most sailors don't use them is they are confused by them. They don't know how they work. They won't tell you that but I talk to more sailors worldwide in a month that most sailors speak with in a lifetime and that is what they tell me - not at first but I eventually get it out of them. That is sad to me because sail trim is not rocket science and the controls are simple to understand and then use. Please note I did not include the cunningham because that is an add on control. A mate could use the halyard as you suggest but the cunningham is easier. The reason is, when you mess with the halyard your dealing with the entire weight of the sail. I always loose about 2' every time I use the halyard. Consequently I use the cunningham as it is much easier to deal with. There is some draft built into the sail and the reason is that the sail looks triangular but it isn't. If it was triangular you could not control it. Twist is also built into the sail and the reason is that the wind blows 60% harder at the top of a 50' mast than at deck level. The reason is that the wind loses strength as it passes over water because of friction and comes across the deck at a lower speed. If the sail was flat the boat would be over on its side most of the time. You don't want to sail the boat with all the twist the sail maker built because it would not be efficient. The sail controls are there to make the main and jib more efficient. As I said, you paid for the sail trim controls so why not use them? It is like buying a 10 speed bike and only using one gear. Why not buy a beach cruiser instead!! Additionally, some sailors DO use some of the controls but they don't use them effectively. For example, they may adjust the outhaul but the outhaul only controls the bottom 2/3 of the sail. The top 1/3 is on its own.Sometimes they use one control and then another one but unfortunately the ones they are using are working against each other. So what is the answer? In 3 short hours I could sit with any sailor and after the session they would know more about sail trim than 75% of the sailors worldwide and would be at the very high intermediate level. Dennis Connors wouldn't be calling them but they would get more enjoyment out of their boats. Is there another way since I can't come to your house? I hate to see salors go through what I had to in order to learn how to sail a silly sailboat. Here's a commercial. Take a look at my book "The Sail Trim Users Guide" and my "Sail Trim Chart". I sell them with a money back guarantee - if you don't learn anything I'll refund your money and you can keep the stuff. Take it into the HEAD with you and after 3 trips, you'll have finished it. After that, go out and practice the material. My products sell for $33.50 and you can buy them on this web site. You'd spend more money on two 12 packs of Sam Adams and we all know where the Sam Adams eventually goes. With my stuff, the same $$ outlay will make you a better sailor and you'll retain the knowledge. After reading and applying my stuff, if you don't find your sailing experience has improved by 100% and your enjoying it more, I'll double your money back!!!
Paul Of Clinton, CT : I have a different view. First of all there is not a racing way and a cruising way to trim your sails - there is only a right way and a wrong way. Those are not my words but those of Dennis Connors, but I agree completly with him. Most production boats come with the following mainsail trim controls: Mainsheet, boom vang, outhaul, traveler, halyard and some have the ability to bend the mast. The jib sail trim controls are fairleads, halyard, jib sheet and mast bend and some have inside and outside tracks. When you buy a boat those controls are part of the purchase price so, since you paid for them why not use them. The reason most sailors don't use them is they are confused by them. They don't know how they work. They won't tell you that but I talk to more sailors worldwide in a month that most sailors speak with in a lifetime and that is what they tell me - not at first but I eventually get it out of them. That is sad to me because sail trim is not rocket science and the controls are simple to understand and then use. Please note I did not include the cunningham because that is an add on control. A mate could use the halyard as you suggest but the cunningham is easier. The reason is, when you mess with the halyard your dealing with the entire weight of the sail. I always loose about 2' every time I use the halyard. Consequently I use the cunningham as it is much easier to deal with. There is some draft built into the sail and the reason is that the sail looks triangular but it isn't. If it was triangular you could not control it. Twist is also built into the sail and the reason is that the wind blows 60% harder at the top of a 50' mast than at deck level. The reason is that the wind loses strength as it passes over water because of friction and comes across the deck at a lower speed. If the sail was flat the boat would be over on its side most of the time. You don't want to sail the boat with all the twist the sail maker built because it would not be efficient. The sail controls are there to make the main and jib more efficient. As I said, you paid for the sail trim controls so why not use them? It is like buying a 10 speed bike and only using one gear. Why not buy a beach cruiser instead!! Additionally, some sailors DO use some of the controls but they don't use them effectively. For example, they may adjust the outhaul but the outhaul only controls the bottom 2/3 of the sail. The top 1/3 is on its own.Sometimes they use one control and then another one but unfortunately the ones they are using are working against each other. So what is the answer? In 3 short hours I could sit with any sailor and after the session they would know more about sail trim than 75% of the sailors worldwide and would be at the very high intermediate level. Dennis Connors wouldn't be calling them but they would get more enjoyment out of their boats. Is there another way since I can't come to your house? I hate to see salors go through what I had to in order to learn how to sail a silly sailboat. Here's a commercial. Take a look at my book "The Sail Trim Users Guide" and my "Sail Trim Chart". I sell them with a money back guarantee - if you don't learn anything I'll refund your money and you can keep the stuff. Take it into the HEAD with you and after 3 trips, you'll have finished it. After that, go out and practice the material. My products sell for $33.50 and you can buy them on this web site. You'd spend more money on two 12 packs of Sam Adams and we all know where the Sam Adams eventually goes. With my stuff, the same $$ outlay will make you a better sailor and you'll retain the knowledge. After reading and applying my stuff, if you don't find your sailing experience has improved by 100% and your enjoying it more, I'll double your money back!!!
D
Don Guillette
Trimming Without Traveler Or Cunningham
Paul Of Dennis, Ma - Your my man!!Your experimenting, noting results and trying to figure what is going on. I wish more mates did that. Here's what is happening in your case. The boom vang is really not that effective when you are closedhauled or on a close reach. Notice the pulling angle of mainsheet on those points of sail. It is pretty powerfull because of pulling angle and there is not much the boom vang can add to it. When the boom moves away from the center line and then continues over the side of the boat, notice what happens to the pulling angle of the mainsheet on those points of sail. It deterioates and the result is the boom tends to rise up and that is where the boom vang comes into play. Sail trim is all physics. Paul, keep up the good fight. Check out what is happening when you push and pull the controls. The results are pretty simple to see and understand.
Paul Of Dennis, Ma - Your my man!!Your experimenting, noting results and trying to figure what is going on. I wish more mates did that. Here's what is happening in your case. The boom vang is really not that effective when you are closedhauled or on a close reach. Notice the pulling angle of mainsheet on those points of sail. It is pretty powerfull because of pulling angle and there is not much the boom vang can add to it. When the boom moves away from the center line and then continues over the side of the boat, notice what happens to the pulling angle of the mainsheet on those points of sail. It deterioates and the result is the boom tends to rise up and that is where the boom vang comes into play. Sail trim is all physics. Paul, keep up the good fight. Check out what is happening when you push and pull the controls. The results are pretty simple to see and understand.
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