Does size matter....

[Warren Milberg]

I was at the boat show this year. I was amazed to see that it was hard to find a boat that was less than 40-ft long. I can well understand the need for a boat that size or larger if you do extended cruising and/or blue-water sailing. Yet most of my sailing friends are recreational sailors who, like me, either go for a weekend sail with your family now and then, or solo day sail during the week. So, how big is yours? Why did you choose that size? Does size matter...?

 

[capta]

It's probably just a matter of Flash. A 22 footer just won't get the attention a 40 footer will and if you like their 40 footer, perhaps you'll like their 22 footer.
Also, it's not much of a sale point if you (or your wife) steps into a cabin you have to scrunch down in and sit down right away, because there's no headroom.

 

[Kings Gambit]

There's not much sales profit to be had in the small boats unless you sell a lot of 'em. If I were going to sit at the Boat Show all weekend w/ mostly lookie-loos about, I'd want to have the larger boats there to possibly sell. Also, there's now a lot of competition at the small end of the size range with other types of watercraft--namely Seadoos, SUPBs, and sea kayaks (not to mention small power and electric boats)--so the market is probably much tighter in the small size range. Not worth it to bring the little guys down.

In answer to your other question about what size of sailboat to choose; IMHO, choose large whenever possible. Yes it matters. They're faster (especially under auxiliary power), generally more comfortable, have more endurance, and frankly, are safer overall b/c large boats basically do better in rough sea conditions than small ones. I'd love to go up to a 42 ft.

 

[dlochner]

There are a couple of issues here, what size boat do people really need and want and profit margins.

For day sailing, weekend cruising, and the annual week or so summer cruise, 30 feet or so is a sweet spot. Easy to handle, relatively fast, and enough accommodations for a couple or small family. Costs are also more manageable.

The other side of the equation is how much money can a boat builder make? The profit on a new $100K 30' boat is much smaller than a new $300K 38' boat. But the selling and marketing costs are not that much different. That ad in Sail Magazine costs the same, the brochure costs the same, the back office costs are lower for the bigger boat, and so on.

 

[SEMPERAVANTI41]

As far as small boats at the show, I was talking recently with a local sailboat dealer. He said that the market had shifted to large, fully equipped boats. Perhaps the manufactures show what sells?
As far as does size matter, YES it does. We have owned our Hunter 50 for almost a year and love it.

 

[rgranger]

So, how big is yours? Why did you choose that size? Does size matter...?

I grew up sailing dinghys... and I knew that once I had a "real job" I was going to buy a cruiser.... but I had four kids and a mortgage so my first "cruiser" was a very well used Macgregor 21. So I fixed it up and we cruised... and my kids got to loving it... and the kids grew in size and number... so I needed a bigger boat.... After several boats....(and a few mistaken choices)... I now know what I like and why I like it.

1) I like shoal draft sailboats....
2) I like trailerable sailboats
3) I like sailboats with a relatively large cockpit
4) I need to be able to sleep four comfortably and 6 for a short weekend.
5) It needs to sail well....

You asked "why did you choose that size?" So addressing the five points above....

1) I like sailing along the coast of Virginia and North Carolina.... The Chesapeake Bay and the Pamlico/Albemarle sounds are very shoal. So I need a shoal draft or variable draft boat.

2) I don't live near the chesapeake bay or the sounds of north carolina so... I need a trailerable sailboat.... also, I get the wander lust bad and need to go to new places so again.... trailerable

3) If you are exploring a new area on a sailboat... you don't really spend any time in the cabin. So a comfortable cockpit is a real need....

4) We are a family of 6 but usually only 4 of us at a time can get our schedules coordinated...

5) Duh!


So the boats I've owned.... and why I sold them.
I started with a Mac V21 (too small). I restored that boat, and sold it for a good profit .... then I restored a Coronado 23' (I should have kept that boat but got bigger boat-itis), so I then got a Coronado 25' it was a good size for my family but it was not trailerable and I soon got bored sailing the same water ever weekend. Got a good lead on a MacGregor V22 and restored that... it was a very fast boat and almost big enough but not quite... I also picked up a Rhodes 22 at the same time (still working on that one). The Rhodes is a huge boat for only 22 feet and has most of the features I really like...

I was able to sell the V22 for a nice profit and purchased a Balboa 26. Now that boat was almost exactly what I wanted. It is big inside the cabin, decent cockpit but a tad small... sort of trailerable (but a bitch to set up) and she sails like a demon. The swing keel on that boat was 1200lb so she was incredibly stiff in a breeze. But I got fed up with the 2 hours to set it up and 2 hours to take it down so I sold that boat (also for a profit) and I now sail a Hunter 26. The H26 is water ballast so easy to trailer. The mast is relatively easy to set up and take down. The bulkheads go gunwale to gunwale so the cabin is a lot larger than the B26 and the cockpit is nicely laid out for comfort. The H26 is a little tender when compared to the B26 but so far I'm happy with it.

 

[dehler25]

Totally water ballast boats will always be somewhat to very tender! Two hours sure would take some sparkle of the prospect of a day sail. I am selling but still have a Dehler 25 that was a good compromise on water ballast and stiffness as it also carried 800lbs of retractable cast iron fin keel along with an equal amount of water. Set up was about 40 leisurely minutes. Trailerables can go places, 70mph to windward can open up sailing grounds that would take a lifetime to venture into.

 

[Gunni]

I hear you Warren. This has been a trend for years. Production boats getting ridiculous big. Beneteau had a 62 or something. My View: These are boats that are largely being sold to people who will turn them into Dock Queens or a leveraged charter boats. I have lots of friends who come to Annapolis and charter one of these beasts every year and they expect hot and cold running bow thrusters and a stripper pole if possible. I know what a handful a 42' boat can be, and it is pretty much the limit for single-handing because when you need a sailing day, who want's to go looking for crew?

I followed an older couple down the dock on Thursday of boatshow, by their dress and gait they were there for the spectacle, not owners looking to upgrade. The lady was keeping score and when she saw the new Amel64 she said, "oh, a 64!". Not, "Oh, a new Amel". There was no way on earth they were going to sail a 64ft ketch...but aboard they went!

 

[Charlie Jones s/v Tehani]

My first boat was a San Juan 21, MkI. Fine for daysailing or a weekend.. Too small for long term. Had wife and child aboard

My second was Cross 35 Trimaran. Lived aboard and cruised for three years. Same wife and now much larger child

Circumstances dictated selling it, and I went to a Lindsey 21. Again, fine for a week or two, but cramped. Down to just two now. Kid grew up

Sold that and got my current boat- the Rhodes Meridian 25. Lovely sailboat, 5'10" headroom, and with another wife, cruised full time for almost three years. Since I'm now a singlehander , it's likely all the boat I need. Not really large enough to live on full time, storage being the problem mainly - 4 season clothes, bedding etc. IF I were to trade boats again, and live aboard, I think 30-32 feet would be it. Specially at almost 76 years old

 

[rgranger]

.... and a stripper pole if possible.

WHAT! You can get that option... and all these years I felt something was missing.... what could it be. So I went shopping and look

Seriously, this picture about sums up everything I feel and believe to be true about go fast ski boaters.... LOL

 

[Gunni]

WHAT! You can get that option.

I keep telling them it is called a compression post but they just look at me and say, "yeah!"

 

[31seahorse]

Hello Warren,
I heard a boat broker say he loved the time after the Annapolis Boat Show because that is when he had lots of visits from people who realized they could not afford the big, new boats they had boarded at the show. I always thought of myself in that under-funded category so a new boat was not a choice. We worked on all of the boats we owned in order to have a more sellable boat when the time came.

The following paragraph will answer two recent postings: (1) favorite boat names & (2) what size boat is preferred/best.

Our boats ranged from 12 ft (a plastic bath tub called a Sea Witch) to 17 to 27 to 30 & 31 to 34 and back to 27. We had the interest to do more cruising on the Upper Chesapeake Bay and the 17 ft trailer boat wasn't too comfortable for two adults and two children, although we did make an effort several times. By the time we bought the Catalina 27 (Tinkertoy) the "children" were young adults and off to wider horizons with our good wishes. The Irwin 31 (Seahorse) was a great sailing boat that heeled to a certain angle then took off at a gallop! (We named her "Seahorse" in case anyone is interested because we were spending our time between the sea [ aka Chesapeake Bay ] and horse shows with our daughter.) After retirement the Oday 30 (Paloma) was a keel/centerboard boat with 3 ft 6 in to 7ft draft that was ideal for the waters of SW Florida as was the more recent Oday 272 (Breezin' Up) due to her 2 ft 11 in wing keel draft and her great day sailing capabilities. The Oday 34 (Day Dream) was chosen because we sailed a 34 owned by friends of ours, and we saw/felt how much more roomy and comfortable the bigger hull was. We sold the 34 when yearly boat chores became too much for our old bones to endure. Our current (and probably last) cruising boat is a Caliber 28 (MARA - the name she was launched with in 1986) that is a good compromise of large enough to sail very comfortably and small enough to do maintenance on with some energy left at the end of the day. She is hauled out now at Seneca Lake in New York waiting for some TLC and Spring 2017.

Best Wishes.

 

[druid]

I have noticed the Advertising (and, following the marketing, advice from forums like this one) have gone to bigger and bigger boats as the years go by. When I started "big-boat" (ie not dingies or runabouts) sailing over 30 years ago, a 27-ft Catalina was considered a "big boat" and perfectly adequate for a family of 4 to cruise Georgia Strait. An "entry level" boat would be something like a North Star 24, Columbia 22, or even a Cal 25. Now, I see just about everyone recommending at LEAST 30 ft or so as an "entry-level" boat.
Why? Well, it's fairly obvious from the mfr point of view: it doesn't cost THAT much more to build a 35 ft boat than a 27 ft boat, and they can charge 5 times the price. Why do sailors recommend bigger and bigger boats? I'm not sure...
One thing is that (maybe as we're getting older...?) we are depending more and more on Comfort and that which makes us comfortable. 30 years ago, it was unheard of to have air conditioning on your boat, and "shore power" was usually a 15A extension cord. Now we MUST have at least 30A, a Genset, a 1500W inverter... and the stove has to be 3-burner, with oven, microwave...GPS, AIS, chartplotter, VHF (mobile AND handheld), TV - the list goes on and on. I see it in camping as well: camping in a tent has been replaced by 30 ft travel trailers that have more appliances (and more room) than my last apartment.
And the unfortunate consequence of this is that young families can NO LONGER afford to go sailing. They go to the boat shows, look at the 40-ft, $1.5M boats, and walk away.

druid

 

[Stu Jackson]

So, how big is yours? Why did you choose that size? Does size matter...?

34. Best boat for the $$. 12 years old when we bought her in 1998, meticulous care by the PO. Half the price of a new one at that time. Moved up from a Catalina 25 we'd had for 13 years. Not so much the size but the quality from Catalina or the price, both original and "used."

The systems sold us on this size: h&c running water, standing headroom, easy to singlehand, great for a group, safety, reliability, superb association website and resources, looks good... Need I go on?

Sailed all over Northern California, and recently up from SF to Vancouver Island.

Great boat.

Most all of us "LOVE" our boats, i.e., the ones we currently own. Why? 'Cuz that's why we bought them.

The features we bought them for remain. If we ended up not liking them, we've bought different ones, either to begin with or since.

Size, these days, Warren, gets into the "condo craze" or the "Ikea" look.

Of course, there are the issues of marketing and buying "power."

There have been many, many discussions about this phenomenon on this and bother boating forums.

A very good topic of discussion. Thanks for making it.

the market had shifted to large, fully equipped boats.

Mine was waaay back in 1986.

 

[Stu Jackson]

the market had shifted to large, fully equipped boats.

Now we MUST have at least 30A, a Genset, a 1500W inverter... and the stove has to be 3-burner, with oven, microwave...GPS, AIS, chartplotter, VHF (mobile AND handheld), TV - the list goes on and on.

Druid's right. Good thoughts.

A skipper on this forum, higgs, wrote this back a while ago. I've posted it before, but believe it remains appropriate. Enjoy.


ONE MAN'S OPINION
Cruising World August 1995


I can no longer remain silent. At first I thought it
was just a few eccentrics, but I am now afraid that
I am beginning to see a pattern. I think that the
final straw was the recent article I read on sailing
in fog that said that if I didn't have a radar on my
boat, perhaps I had misappropriated my boating
budget. I must confess: I have no radar. Not only
do I not have a radar, but I have no intentions of
buying one. My new gear priorities list does not
even contain this item.

I must go on: I do not have a GPS. Can you
imagine that I actually sail - even cruise - without
one?

There's more. I do not have roller furling. Yes,
that's right. I actually have more than one jib and
what is more, I have to hank it on - one hank at a
time - every time I go sailing. Wait! When the
wind is up and the seas build I actually go forward,
on the top of the deck and - now get this - change
to a different jib. Can you believe that anyone can
be so primitive?

More. My only electronics are a Loran (recently
purchased), a speed/log, a depthsounder and a
cheap VHF. Yes, I will admit it. My VHF is a low
priced model! Furthermore, my electronics are not
interlinked or whatever fancy jargon aficionados
use to indicate that their electronics talk to each
other. No, I do not have an anemometer. At times
I can be caught standing on deck estimating the
wind speed. I even go so far as to make sail
changes based on the boat's sailing
characteristics. I have never told anyone this, but
I am ready to bare all: I don't have an apparent
wind indicator. I am not lying. We use a piece of -
I am so embarrassed - a piece of cassette tape
tied to the shroud. I do believe it was from
"Smurfs Do the Whitbread" or something like that.

At any rate, we survive and make port without
calling for assistance. We enjoy wonderful meals
cooked on the Weber that hangs off the stern
pulpit and corn on the cob cooked on, of all things,
an alcohol stove.

I could go on and on. By now you must have
figured out that my boat is OLD (1973). Heaven
forbid!
It's hard to imagine that I could enjoy sailing under
these abominable conditions, but the truth is that
I am as addicted as the guy who has all the
equipment. I am proud to say that my boat is not
a marina queen - she lives on a mooring - from
which it is easier to sail her. Her name is Trav'ler
and I make sure she lives up to her name.

We have lost sight of what this sport is all about.
We have lost sight of nature, of ourselves, and our
God, unless your God is powered by 12 volts.
Mine is not. Once - and I remember this - an RDF
was considered a luxury. I remember a trip in fog
so thick (you know the cliché) and we made it
home with nothing more than a compass, a
depthsounder, a sumlog and a VHF. Once we
even did a fog run without the sumlog, as it had
broken. We just estimated our speed. I know my
boat so well that I could estimate her speed within
a fraction of a knot. What tremendous satisfaction
there is in reaching your port using the true skills of
a seaman.

We often hear the lament of how nonsailors
perceive our sport to be one that is reserved for
the wealthy. Is it any wonder when we read
articles about how we all should have radar, or
how our latest mast project only cost $1,200?
These are elitist statements made by people who
know nothing about the lives most of us live.
Sailing can be done safely and enjoyably on a
budget and I feel it is about time that those of us
who sail on a budget speak up.


Higgs
Crystal Lake, Illinois

 

[rgranger]

Higgs is the man!

Stu, thanks for posting that. I believe I share some of Higg's sentiments. I prefer hanked on jibs. With a simple down haul, they are very fast to collapse and I feel they have a better shape. The H26 I have now is my fist boat with roller furled head sail and it is nice when stowing at the end of sail but... it does not let me balance sail the way my old Mac V22 did (I had three different head sails for that boat).

On the Rhodes 22 that I'm currently fixing up, I am going ULTRA SPARTAN. Here are some personal observations about how I sail... and so... how I plan to outfit this Rhodes.

1) I seldom sail after dark... so... I'm not going to hard wire ANY nav lights on the boat but instead rely on battery operated "backup" nav. lights that clamp to the rails. For that matter, I'm not going to hard wire cabin lights either, but instead rely on those "puck" LED lights sold at walmart used in closets. No 12V batteries on this boat.. no wires to short, no connections to corrode etc.

2) I'm not going to put a galley in the boat!!!!! I'm going to cook on the grill clamped to the stern rail, wash in a bucket and reserve the interior space for comfortable berths and stowage. Truth is I usually end up using the galley sink to store my wallet and keys anyway.

3) I only use hand held GPS now and will continue to do so in the Rhodes.
I will get a VHF but that is about it.

.... and like you said.... Thanks for starting this thread. I get so frustrated with Sail magazine and their million dollar yachts ... I won't be renewing my subscription. SMA and GOB are enough for me.

 

[kimelmore]

As sailors on a budget we went looking for a boat we could be comfortable sailing and comfortable at the slip. We stepped up from a 30 to a 38 foot 380 Catalina. It is going to take plenty of work and someday when retired we hope to live aboard and sail up and down the West Coast, therefore the 380 met our criteria.

 

[Kings Gambit]

And the unfortunate consequence of this is that young families can NO LONGER afford to go sailing. They go to the boat shows, look at the 40-ft, $1.5M boats, and walk away.
druid

They do not have to confine their potential purchase inventory to what is on display at a boat show. There is still a range of sizes out there; it's just not worth it for the manufacturers and brokers to haul them to a boat show for the lookie-loos. What thinking person would buy a new boat at a boat show anyway? I'm sure there must be many sold there; but then, there are also many up for sale, nearly new, w/in two or three years of an original purchase.
For examples:
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2015/Beneteau-ASA-First-22-2926630/West-Haverstraw/NY/United-States
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2013/J-Boats-J-70-3016060/Norfolk/VA/United-States
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2012/Seaward-26RK-2956832/Irvington/VA/United-States

I doubt it's affordability keeping them away from boating. It's mostly ignorance.

 

[Stu Jackson]

What thinking person would buy a new boat at a boat show anyway?

<<<<SNIP>>>>>>>>>>>

It's mostly ignorance.

I "snipped" but these two thoughts do actually work "together."

People who buy new boats could be ignorant, or they could have done their homework and research and concluded that the $$ issue was right for them.

Or they could actually BE ignorant, and not have visited this and many other boating websites and learned a lot.

Remember, there are still folks out there with old un-repaired/replaced wiring harnesses (and not only on Catalinas).

 

[Don Lucas]

I got my boat for the size/space. We don't use all of it really, but the size was what it took to get the space in some areas of the boat we wanted. The real problem is that boats are built to maximize the number of people they hold/sleep so an older couple ends up with a boat larger than they wanted to get the living space they are interested in. No one really builds a couples boat.