I am aware of how mainsail trim affects weather helm, but Is it possible to affect helm by adjusting jib sheet lead? From my experience, by moving the lead aft it spills wind out of the upper part of the jib thus de-powering the jib, and shifting the balance aft and increasing weather helm. So it seem that by moving the jib lead forward the jib gets more power and shifts the balance forward thus reducing weather helm. I have always moved the jib lead according to the wind speed and angle of going to windward. But could there be a way for trimming both sails to reduce weather helm? Also, our H 34 seems to have quite a lot of mast rake (aft) Looks about 9 inches I am planning to re-adjust this, How much mast rake do any other H 34 owners have? Any views welcomed! Charles Duhon "Artistry"
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Weather Helm and Mast Rake
Careful trying to reduce Mast Rake. I've been told, (and it looks like it to me!) that the mast has a bend in it. Trying to take the rake out, is trying to straighten a normally curved spar: not a good idea. As to sail trim, although you are correct about moving the gib/genoa blocks forward decreased weather helm, it has a more major effect on sail efficiency. You won't gain enough to make it worthwhile. Better soluton is to fly a smaller jib jib, say going from a 155 or 135 to a 110. Also, reefing the main will make a big difference. If you are sailing with constant excessive weather helm, you should not be just letting the sheets out to luff the sails. That is a temporary solution for that unexpected gust or wind change, before you can get the reefs in or the smaller jib up. Of course, you can partially furl your jib, if you have roller furling, for a temporary solution also. My experience, admittedy new to the Hunter 34, is that, if reefed early with the proper jib, should have not trouble in winds below 30-35 kts.
Careful trying to reduce Mast Rake. I've been told, (and it looks like it to me!) that the mast has a bend in it. Trying to take the rake out, is trying to straighten a normally curved spar: not a good idea. As to sail trim, although you are correct about moving the gib/genoa blocks forward decreased weather helm, it has a more major effect on sail efficiency. You won't gain enough to make it worthwhile. Better soluton is to fly a smaller jib jib, say going from a 155 or 135 to a 110. Also, reefing the main will make a big difference. If you are sailing with constant excessive weather helm, you should not be just letting the sheets out to luff the sails. That is a temporary solution for that unexpected gust or wind change, before you can get the reefs in or the smaller jib up. Of course, you can partially furl your jib, if you have roller furling, for a temporary solution also. My experience, admittedy new to the Hunter 34, is that, if reefed early with the proper jib, should have not trouble in winds below 30-35 kts.
9" looks about right
The B&R rig does have a significant bend or rake. I looked at mine today and it looks like 9 or 10 inches. That is with minimal pressure on the backstay. I believe that is normal for the B&R rig, which is tensioned by the standing rigging. You do not want to try and straighten it by increasing tension on the forestay. Work on weather helm by sail trim.
The B&R rig does have a significant bend or rake. I looked at mine today and it looks like 9 or 10 inches. That is with minimal pressure on the backstay. I believe that is normal for the B&R rig, which is tensioned by the standing rigging. You do not want to try and straighten it by increasing tension on the forestay. Work on weather helm by sail trim.
Some Thoughts on Weather Helm and Jib Trim
To find a generally acceptable answer to the question posed by Charles one should first try to agree about the main causes of weather helm. Although these will vary a bit from design to design my top 5 causes, in order of decreasing importance, are: (1) heeling (from whatever cause); (2) overpowered main (for the conditions) (3) mast rake (4) underpowered jib (poor jib/main balance) (5) squatting (overloaded by the stern). 1 - Heeling Most hulls, and particularly beamy ones, will undergo a marked change in wetted surface area and underwater shape when heeled significantly, thereby causing a strong increase in the tendency to round up, and thus weather helm. Powering up the jib by moving the jib lead forward (i.e. closing the leech and opening the foot) will generally increase the heeling tendency. Therefore, in my experience with a Legend 33.5 and a Legend 43, any beneficial effect on weather helm to be obtained from achieving a better balance between jib and main will tend to be negated by the increased heeling. Conversely, depowering the jib by moving the lead aft, thereby stretching the foot and opening the leach, will tend to reduce heeling and, thus weather helm. On close-hauled courses this can also slightly depower the main (because the slot between jib and main becomes less efficient), thereby potentially further reducing weather helm. 2 - Overpowered Main. This is less controversial. Even if heeling could be kept in check (e.g. with rail meat and/or waterbalast) the imbalance between main and jib would tend to increase weather helm. So most of us will first tend to flatten the main (i.e. stretch the foot and the luff while opening the leech) by proper tensioning of outhaul, main halyard (or Cunningham), vang and sheet while further depower ing it by means of traveler and sheet. If the effect is not sufficient or the wind is rapidly rising nearly all of us will put in one or two reefs. 3 - Mast Rake. On most larger Hunters, particularly those equipped with a BandR rig, the possibilities for using mast rake as a control tool are very limited or nonexistent. 4 - Underpowered Jib Powering up the jib in the hope of reducing weather helm suffers from two complications, namely increased heeling and the tendency to also increase the efficiency of the main by "powering up the slot" between main and jib, especially when beating into the wind. 5 - Squatting Slightly changes the shape of the underwater body and simultaneously rotates the keel forward and the mast aft. The resulting mismatch between center of effort and center of lateral resistance again tends to round up the boat, thereby adding some weather helm. IMHO, the best "cure" for persistent skipper-induced weather helm problems is to install a windvane-type autosteering system with auxiliary rudder (e.g. the highly recommended Scanmar Auto-Helm). This will force one to play around with sails, rigging and ballast distribution until the small auxiliary rudder can hold the vessel on course with only 5-10 degrees correction from the securely locked main rudder. Have fun! Flying Dutchman
To find a generally acceptable answer to the question posed by Charles one should first try to agree about the main causes of weather helm. Although these will vary a bit from design to design my top 5 causes, in order of decreasing importance, are: (1) heeling (from whatever cause); (2) overpowered main (for the conditions) (3) mast rake (4) underpowered jib (poor jib/main balance) (5) squatting (overloaded by the stern). 1 - Heeling Most hulls, and particularly beamy ones, will undergo a marked change in wetted surface area and underwater shape when heeled significantly, thereby causing a strong increase in the tendency to round up, and thus weather helm. Powering up the jib by moving the jib lead forward (i.e. closing the leech and opening the foot) will generally increase the heeling tendency. Therefore, in my experience with a Legend 33.5 and a Legend 43, any beneficial effect on weather helm to be obtained from achieving a better balance between jib and main will tend to be negated by the increased heeling. Conversely, depowering the jib by moving the lead aft, thereby stretching the foot and opening the leach, will tend to reduce heeling and, thus weather helm. On close-hauled courses this can also slightly depower the main (because the slot between jib and main becomes less efficient), thereby potentially further reducing weather helm. 2 - Overpowered Main. This is less controversial. Even if heeling could be kept in check (e.g. with rail meat and/or waterbalast) the imbalance between main and jib would tend to increase weather helm. So most of us will first tend to flatten the main (i.e. stretch the foot and the luff while opening the leech) by proper tensioning of outhaul, main halyard (or Cunningham), vang and sheet while further depower ing it by means of traveler and sheet. If the effect is not sufficient or the wind is rapidly rising nearly all of us will put in one or two reefs. 3 - Mast Rake. On most larger Hunters, particularly those equipped with a BandR rig, the possibilities for using mast rake as a control tool are very limited or nonexistent. 4 - Underpowered Jib Powering up the jib in the hope of reducing weather helm suffers from two complications, namely increased heeling and the tendency to also increase the efficiency of the main by "powering up the slot" between main and jib, especially when beating into the wind. 5 - Squatting Slightly changes the shape of the underwater body and simultaneously rotates the keel forward and the mast aft. The resulting mismatch between center of effort and center of lateral resistance again tends to round up the boat, thereby adding some weather helm. IMHO, the best "cure" for persistent skipper-induced weather helm problems is to install a windvane-type autosteering system with auxiliary rudder (e.g. the highly recommended Scanmar Auto-Helm). This will force one to play around with sails, rigging and ballast distribution until the small auxiliary rudder can hold the vessel on course with only 5-10 degrees correction from the securely locked main rudder. Have fun! Flying Dutchman
Two comments
(1) Mast rake and mast bend are two different things. On boats with adjustable backstays, inducing mast bend depowers the main and reduces weather helm. On B&R rigs with fixed mast bend, I would leave it as spec'd, since your sails are likely cut for this and you can't adjust it under way. Mast rake is the angle the mast makes with deck. For masts with lots of bend, imagine the straightline from masthead to deck step. Measure rake by the horizontal distance on deck from the aft edge of the mast to a plumb hung from the main halyard. Almost all masts have some aft rake. Tuning carefully, you should be able to change the rake without changing the bend. (2) Heeling need not cause weather helm. This is true only for some designs, especially those with beamy, flat hulls, whose beam is carried through to the stern. A well-designed sailboat with balanced ends has a gentle helm even when the boat is heeled. Of course, lots of beam carried as far aft as possible makes it possible to fit a full-width rear cabin into a 29 foot hull. Many buyers think this is more important in a sailboat than good manners. Or they don't know enough to wonder about the tradeoff when they see the boat at a dealership or boatshow. Either way, Hunter today is designing for what the market wants. This is good for Hunter, but bad for the minority of Hunter owners who care more about a boat's sailing manners than maximizing the cabin underneath the cockpit.
(1) Mast rake and mast bend are two different things. On boats with adjustable backstays, inducing mast bend depowers the main and reduces weather helm. On B&R rigs with fixed mast bend, I would leave it as spec'd, since your sails are likely cut for this and you can't adjust it under way. Mast rake is the angle the mast makes with deck. For masts with lots of bend, imagine the straightline from masthead to deck step. Measure rake by the horizontal distance on deck from the aft edge of the mast to a plumb hung from the main halyard. Almost all masts have some aft rake. Tuning carefully, you should be able to change the rake without changing the bend. (2) Heeling need not cause weather helm. This is true only for some designs, especially those with beamy, flat hulls, whose beam is carried through to the stern. A well-designed sailboat with balanced ends has a gentle helm even when the boat is heeled. Of course, lots of beam carried as far aft as possible makes it possible to fit a full-width rear cabin into a 29 foot hull. Many buyers think this is more important in a sailboat than good manners. Or they don't know enough to wonder about the tradeoff when they see the boat at a dealership or boatshow. Either way, Hunter today is designing for what the market wants. This is good for Hunter, but bad for the minority of Hunter owners who care more about a boat's sailing manners than maximizing the cabin underneath the cockpit.
the problem
Moving the fairlead forward to power up the jib is only going to work to reduce weather helm if you're reaching. The problem with adjusting the fairleads fore and aft to balance the rig is that you will be sacrificing pointing ability. Flat sails point better in windy conditions, period, which means that the only efficient way to reduce weather helm when going to weather is to reduce canvass. Depowering EITHER sail to the point where the rig is unbalanced means that you're giving up windward ability. Put in a reef and/or change to a smaller headsail and you'll solve your weather helm problem while preserving your ability to point.
Moving the fairlead forward to power up the jib is only going to work to reduce weather helm if you're reaching. The problem with adjusting the fairleads fore and aft to balance the rig is that you will be sacrificing pointing ability. Flat sails point better in windy conditions, period, which means that the only efficient way to reduce weather helm when going to weather is to reduce canvass. Depowering EITHER sail to the point where the rig is unbalanced means that you're giving up windward ability. Put in a reef and/or change to a smaller headsail and you'll solve your weather helm problem while preserving your ability to point.
Pointing Ability vs. Drive
I agree with John Farnsworth that a flatter sail shape helps pointing ability, particularly in windy conditions, and that proper reefing is the best way to reduce weather helm (unless you want to maximize speed and have the superior option of moveable ballast). However, flatter sail shapes also tend to reduce drive and in the rougher seas associated with windy conditions you will be stopped dead by the waves when trying to go upwind without sufficient drive.... What counts most when trying to reach an upwind destination is VMG (velocity made good). Maximizing upwind VMG requires finding the best compromise between drive and pointing ability. Often this will mean choosing a point of sail between close-hauled and close-reaching, with sails that are properly reefed but less than fully flattened. Flying Dutchman
I agree with John Farnsworth that a flatter sail shape helps pointing ability, particularly in windy conditions, and that proper reefing is the best way to reduce weather helm (unless you want to maximize speed and have the superior option of moveable ballast). However, flatter sail shapes also tend to reduce drive and in the rougher seas associated with windy conditions you will be stopped dead by the waves when trying to go upwind without sufficient drive.... What counts most when trying to reach an upwind destination is VMG (velocity made good). Maximizing upwind VMG requires finding the best compromise between drive and pointing ability. Often this will mean choosing a point of sail between close-hauled and close-reaching, with sails that are properly reefed but less than fully flattened. Flying Dutchman
Thanks Henk...
...for the additional comment. I too, agree with John on the reefing/sail selection. I can tell most of the folks responding here are REALLY into sail balance and high performance with the least effort at the helm (or least power consumed by the autopilot). When wind is steady and you're on a 100nm tack, great, make all the changes you want, play with everything, learn your vessel. But for the layman who would like to simpy set it up "for starters" and have a relatively close setting the first time around, here's what you can do. (You can always do the all-weekend sail trimming later, right?) OK, first balance each sail to itself. What I mean is make sure each sail can fly by itself without looking like the open end of a pillowcase flapping in a nice breeze. I'm sure everyone is aware of luff tension settings; looser for light air and tighter for heavy air. But what about the leech line? I see lots of sailors moving right along with their leech unzipped. Set it just to where the back edge of the sail is not quivering. Second, lower the main and hoist/unfurl the jib. Set the vessel on a close reach and set the jib accordingly; just where there is no bubble in the luff. Set the leech line accordingly. When set, slowly head up and pay close attention to which edge luffs first, foot or leech. If foot, move the jib lead aft, if leech, move the jib lead forward. NOTE: You may have to tack over to the other side to release the pressure from the jib sheet to accomplish this. If so, move the lazy jib lead first, then tack. Keep up this process until both the foot and the leech of the jib luff at the same time. Oh yeah, ignore the tell tales during this process. Ensure the jib leads are the same on both port and starboard. Third, set your main sheet traveller amidships and leave it! Fourth, hoist the main and get on close reach. tie the tiller or wheel in a position amidships or just to windward. Now that your jib leads are even and your jib sheets are putting the exact same tension on leech and foot, you can balance the boat by placing the jib where the telltales fly correctly then keeping the main sheet in your hand. You can steer the boat with the main for hundreds of miles and never touch the wheel, tiller, or autopilot. Fifth, please note that this is the lazyman's cruising method of sail balance and is not intended to drastically effect any weather helm you're accustomed to dealing with. It is, however, intended to let you quickly and easily find out what weather helm your vessel has and what sail trimming is required to reduce it to juuuuuuust enough to make the vessel sail herself safely. IOW, it's just a place to start. Personally, I have not moved a jib lead once after setting the boat up on its first sail. The only reason I move the traveller is to make the companionway easier to access when in port or at anchor; but I also have the boomvang run to the cockpit. The fastest point of sail on MY boat is NOT close-hauled (or even typically beam reach) it's at close reach. Since I can make at least 1.5K faster at close reach than close haul, the VMG option is the only way to go. Sure, my tacking angle is 110, but I still get there earlier than dealing with a gusty close haul. By the way, my boat will round up with a major 10+ gust if I don't dump the main, but otherwise I can steer her in 20-25K with only a finger or two. You can get to the point in steady wind where you can leave the helm entirely without locking the helm; its just balance. My suggestion to Charles is follow the steps above (you're already aware of it obviously) then play with jib telltales and main sheet tension. (If you head up, the jib luffs first right?) And above all, "when in doubt, let it out" Hope somebody finds this useful as the severe thunderstorm warning and tornado watch have kept me from sailing this evening and I'm obviously rambling. Bummer
...for the additional comment. I too, agree with John on the reefing/sail selection. I can tell most of the folks responding here are REALLY into sail balance and high performance with the least effort at the helm (or least power consumed by the autopilot). When wind is steady and you're on a 100nm tack, great, make all the changes you want, play with everything, learn your vessel. But for the layman who would like to simpy set it up "for starters" and have a relatively close setting the first time around, here's what you can do. (You can always do the all-weekend sail trimming later, right?) OK, first balance each sail to itself. What I mean is make sure each sail can fly by itself without looking like the open end of a pillowcase flapping in a nice breeze. I'm sure everyone is aware of luff tension settings; looser for light air and tighter for heavy air. But what about the leech line? I see lots of sailors moving right along with their leech unzipped. Set it just to where the back edge of the sail is not quivering. Second, lower the main and hoist/unfurl the jib. Set the vessel on a close reach and set the jib accordingly; just where there is no bubble in the luff. Set the leech line accordingly. When set, slowly head up and pay close attention to which edge luffs first, foot or leech. If foot, move the jib lead aft, if leech, move the jib lead forward. NOTE: You may have to tack over to the other side to release the pressure from the jib sheet to accomplish this. If so, move the lazy jib lead first, then tack. Keep up this process until both the foot and the leech of the jib luff at the same time. Oh yeah, ignore the tell tales during this process. Ensure the jib leads are the same on both port and starboard. Third, set your main sheet traveller amidships and leave it! Fourth, hoist the main and get on close reach. tie the tiller or wheel in a position amidships or just to windward. Now that your jib leads are even and your jib sheets are putting the exact same tension on leech and foot, you can balance the boat by placing the jib where the telltales fly correctly then keeping the main sheet in your hand. You can steer the boat with the main for hundreds of miles and never touch the wheel, tiller, or autopilot. Fifth, please note that this is the lazyman's cruising method of sail balance and is not intended to drastically effect any weather helm you're accustomed to dealing with. It is, however, intended to let you quickly and easily find out what weather helm your vessel has and what sail trimming is required to reduce it to juuuuuuust enough to make the vessel sail herself safely. IOW, it's just a place to start. Personally, I have not moved a jib lead once after setting the boat up on its first sail. The only reason I move the traveller is to make the companionway easier to access when in port or at anchor; but I also have the boomvang run to the cockpit. The fastest point of sail on MY boat is NOT close-hauled (or even typically beam reach) it's at close reach. Since I can make at least 1.5K faster at close reach than close haul, the VMG option is the only way to go. Sure, my tacking angle is 110, but I still get there earlier than dealing with a gusty close haul. By the way, my boat will round up with a major 10+ gust if I don't dump the main, but otherwise I can steer her in 20-25K with only a finger or two. You can get to the point in steady wind where you can leave the helm entirely without locking the helm; its just balance. My suggestion to Charles is follow the steps above (you're already aware of it obviously) then play with jib telltales and main sheet tension. (If you head up, the jib luffs first right?) And above all, "when in doubt, let it out" Hope somebody finds this useful as the severe thunderstorm warning and tornado watch have kept me from sailing this evening and I'm obviously rambling. Bummer
Response to Been There's Comments
I fully agree with Been There's comment about the difference between mast rake and mast bend as well as his advice not to mess with the intrinsic mast bend of the B&R rig. However, I would like to repeat my remark that mast rake has a strong effect on weather helm, e.g. when accidentally changed during re-rigging of a deck-stepped mast. The aesthetically most pleasing, or even the originally specified, rake angles are not necessarily the correct ones. A vessel that over the years has gone down a couple of inches at the bow because of heavy anchor gear or has slowly started to squat because of heavy batteries and other gear in aft lockers and compartments can benefit from a compensatory adjustment in mast rake designed to realign the center of effort with the center of lateral resistance. Secondly, before anyone gets too carried away with the wonderful "sailing manners" of double-enders, or other designs with "balanced ends", let's take the following considerations into account as well: (1) Althoug rapidly increasing weather helm when a boat with beamy aft ends gets heeled in a sudden gust may be a nuisance for the autopilot (although much less so for a good windvane) it is also an important safety factor since the vessel tends to round up and right itself. By contrast, vessels without this characteristic have a greater probability of bearing off when heeled by sudden gusts and/or waves, sometimes galloping away and risking an uncontrolled gybe. Chichester's struggles with the beautiful but tender Gypsy Moth V (as detailed in his book "The Romantic Challenge") are an interesting example. - The added buoyancy produced by beamy aft ends reduces the chances of being pooped in big following seas and enables the use of open transoms, an important safety feature that ensures rapid drainage of cockpits swamped by breaking waves and greatly facilitates fast recovery of MOB victims. In over 30,000 NM with our Legend 43, much of it offshore and in various types of weather, I have only seen following seas wash across the cockpit floor two or three times when we were stopped for repairs. By contrast, vessels with fine, less buoyant sterns tend to get pooped a lot more frequently. Just watch your bows getting dunked on in high seas. Would you really want your stern to behave like that? - Finally, the speed advantages afforded by the beamy aft ends (in being able to carry more sail with less heeling) probably don't score very high on Been There's scale of "sailing manners". However, for many of us speed, and especially upwind VMG capability, is a very important characteristic of modern, light racers/cruisers that can help us stay out of trouble. Three years ago in Kona, Hawaii, I saw the salty professional skipper of an aesthetically pleasing, classic CT 40 make landfall after 56 days at sea in an uphill battle against contrary winds since he had left the Marquesas with his wife (and first mate) of many years. She was taking the first available flight home rather than wanting to accompany him on the second windward leg to the mainland..... Flying Dutchman
I fully agree with Been There's comment about the difference between mast rake and mast bend as well as his advice not to mess with the intrinsic mast bend of the B&R rig. However, I would like to repeat my remark that mast rake has a strong effect on weather helm, e.g. when accidentally changed during re-rigging of a deck-stepped mast. The aesthetically most pleasing, or even the originally specified, rake angles are not necessarily the correct ones. A vessel that over the years has gone down a couple of inches at the bow because of heavy anchor gear or has slowly started to squat because of heavy batteries and other gear in aft lockers and compartments can benefit from a compensatory adjustment in mast rake designed to realign the center of effort with the center of lateral resistance. Secondly, before anyone gets too carried away with the wonderful "sailing manners" of double-enders, or other designs with "balanced ends", let's take the following considerations into account as well: (1) Althoug rapidly increasing weather helm when a boat with beamy aft ends gets heeled in a sudden gust may be a nuisance for the autopilot (although much less so for a good windvane) it is also an important safety factor since the vessel tends to round up and right itself. By contrast, vessels without this characteristic have a greater probability of bearing off when heeled by sudden gusts and/or waves, sometimes galloping away and risking an uncontrolled gybe. Chichester's struggles with the beautiful but tender Gypsy Moth V (as detailed in his book "The Romantic Challenge") are an interesting example. - The added buoyancy produced by beamy aft ends reduces the chances of being pooped in big following seas and enables the use of open transoms, an important safety feature that ensures rapid drainage of cockpits swamped by breaking waves and greatly facilitates fast recovery of MOB victims. In over 30,000 NM with our Legend 43, much of it offshore and in various types of weather, I have only seen following seas wash across the cockpit floor two or three times when we were stopped for repairs. By contrast, vessels with fine, less buoyant sterns tend to get pooped a lot more frequently. Just watch your bows getting dunked on in high seas. Would you really want your stern to behave like that? - Finally, the speed advantages afforded by the beamy aft ends (in being able to carry more sail with less heeling) probably don't score very high on Been There's scale of "sailing manners". However, for many of us speed, and especially upwind VMG capability, is a very important characteristic of modern, light racers/cruisers that can help us stay out of trouble. Three years ago in Kona, Hawaii, I saw the salty professional skipper of an aesthetically pleasing, classic CT 40 make landfall after 56 days at sea in an uphill battle against contrary winds since he had left the Marquesas with his wife (and first mate) of many years. She was taking the first available flight home rather than wanting to accompany him on the second windward leg to the mainland..... Flying Dutchman
Henk, look at these two pictures
I did not mean to compare modern designs with those from three or four decades ago. Here's a better comparison: http://www.huntermarine.com/huntermarine/images/products/h460/460_floorplan3.jpg http://www.jboats.com/j46/images/j46web4.jpg Both are modern designs. Both have walk-through transoms. These diagrams don't show hull lines, but it is obvious which boat has the more balanced ends. Having sailed neither, it is only my guess that it has the gentler helm. I suspect it is also faster, more weatherly, and has plenty of buoyancy to rise to following seas. I have not heard that it dangerously veers off in gusts. The Hunter's important advantage is its lower price. The interesting thing is the relationship between price and design. A builder that sells lots of boats can afford to put more effort into design than one who sells fewer. From an engineering perspective, the different hull shapes should not have greatly different construction costs. You might expect the beamier hull to be slightly more expensive. The difference in price has to do with marketing, not engineering. The builder who sells lots of boats has to focus their design on selling lots of boats. One hull shape above focuses on sailing qualities. The other focuses on getting the most interior in its length. This has the larger market. If you're not Bill Gates, your choices are constrained, and you buy the compromise that most suits your needs. If you're a boat builder, you design boats for your market. I've sailed boats with beamy stern that pick up weather helm when heeled, and boats with balanced ends that had gentle helm. I prefer the second. If it comes in too rich a package, I'll take the first.
I did not mean to compare modern designs with those from three or four decades ago. Here's a better comparison: http://www.huntermarine.com/huntermarine/images/products/h460/460_floorplan3.jpg http://www.jboats.com/j46/images/j46web4.jpg Both are modern designs. Both have walk-through transoms. These diagrams don't show hull lines, but it is obvious which boat has the more balanced ends. Having sailed neither, it is only my guess that it has the gentler helm. I suspect it is also faster, more weatherly, and has plenty of buoyancy to rise to following seas. I have not heard that it dangerously veers off in gusts. The Hunter's important advantage is its lower price. The interesting thing is the relationship between price and design. A builder that sells lots of boats can afford to put more effort into design than one who sells fewer. From an engineering perspective, the different hull shapes should not have greatly different construction costs. You might expect the beamier hull to be slightly more expensive. The difference in price has to do with marketing, not engineering. The builder who sells lots of boats has to focus their design on selling lots of boats. One hull shape above focuses on sailing qualities. The other focuses on getting the most interior in its length. This has the larger market. If you're not Bill Gates, your choices are constrained, and you buy the compromise that most suits your needs. If you're a boat builder, you design boats for your market. I've sailed boats with beamy stern that pick up weather helm when heeled, and boats with balanced ends that had gentle helm. I prefer the second. If it comes in too rich a package, I'll take the first.
According to the Polars
from US Sailing in 20 K true, going close hauled on a full main and 155 you should reef to 87% of you original sq ft of sail area. At this point of sail you will be heeling 23 degrees, experience ap w of 23K, Bearing of ap w is 38 degrees, speed in water is 6.3K . At the same 20K true with full sails up you could sail as close as 68degree Ap W, ap w is 20 K, your speed thru the water is 7.7K. Point being you will need to crank the vang & cunningham, flatten everything, tighten the halyards another inch or 2, (things are streching under increased load), & this does not take into account waves & the required sail alterations to plow thru. Adjusting cars, vang, traveler etc. to spill wind etc. all comes into play per the sea conditions. anything past 26 degrees of heel you are kidding youself, you may be going fast but you are going sideways. I'm lucky enough to race against 3 sister-ships (H34s) and as the wind picks up, (we have raced in 30K True) one can see the value of reefing. At 22K True try a 135 & full or 1st reef. At 28K True go with a double reef & a 100-110. BOL PJ
from US Sailing in 20 K true, going close hauled on a full main and 155 you should reef to 87% of you original sq ft of sail area. At this point of sail you will be heeling 23 degrees, experience ap w of 23K, Bearing of ap w is 38 degrees, speed in water is 6.3K . At the same 20K true with full sails up you could sail as close as 68degree Ap W, ap w is 20 K, your speed thru the water is 7.7K. Point being you will need to crank the vang & cunningham, flatten everything, tighten the halyards another inch or 2, (things are streching under increased load), & this does not take into account waves & the required sail alterations to plow thru. Adjusting cars, vang, traveler etc. to spill wind etc. all comes into play per the sea conditions. anything past 26 degrees of heel you are kidding youself, you may be going fast but you are going sideways. I'm lucky enough to race against 3 sister-ships (H34s) and as the wind picks up, (we have raced in 30K True) one can see the value of reefing. At 22K True try a 135 & full or 1st reef. At 28K True go with a double reef & a 100-110. BOL PJ
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