Do You Use The Electric Winch For The Furling Main

Marc14857 · Apr 25, 2010

Fred

On our 2005 44AC We use the power winch to furl the jib as it is located on starbord side. The main furler is to port. One thing to be careful of is when you bring the furler line to the winch it tends to rub on the cockpit coaming and will damage the fiberglass. I purchased a thin piece of aluminum about 6 inches by 3 inches that came that had self sticking glue on one side. It is designed to protect the coaming and works just fine.

capejt · Apr 25, 2010

I wouldn't use a winch to furl

IMO it's asking for trouble using a winch to furl your sails. It should be easy enough to do it by hand. If it isn't, that indicates something wrong with your furler. If you furl by hand you might only "bend" the problem, but when you use the winch you're going to "break" it for sure!
Power winches were created to be used on sheets not furling lines.

Buck420 · Apr 26, 2010

With all due respect to "Capejt" .. I have routinely been using my electric (sheet) winch to furl both my jib and my (in-mast furling) main ever since I got the boat almost 10 years ago.
Yes, like MANY other things, used incorrectly or without paying attention, using an electric winch to furl your jib and main "could" cause damage.
But, then, using an autopilot without paying attention "could" run you into bad things... using your propane stove without paying attention "could" be unpleasant ... etc.
I've never had any problem using my electric winch to furl sails ( except occasionally getting the furling line over-wrapped on the winch drum) ; indeed, being able to greatly reduce physical stress and effort when furling sails, IMHO, makes sailing easier and far more enjoyable.
Furthermore, I don't have to come into the wind, with my sails flapping and slapping, to get them in. I can keep some wind in them, furl them with much greater ease and without all the "drama".

Vinny · Apr 26, 2010

Buck420 said:
With all due respect to "Capejt" .. I have routinely been using my electric (sheet) winch to furl both my jib and my (in-mast furling) main ever since I got the boat almost 10 years ago.
Yes, like MANY other things, used incorrectly or without paying attention, using an electric winch to furl your jib and main "could" cause damage.
But, then, using an autopilot without paying attention "could" run you into bad things... using your propane stove without paying attention "could" be unpleasant ... etc.
I've never had any problem using my electric winch to furl sails ( except occasionally getting the furling line over-wrapped on the winch drum) ; indeed, being able to greatly reduce physical stress and effort when furling sails, IMHO, makes sailing easier and far more enjoyable.
Furthermore, I don't have to come into the wind, with my sails flapping and slapping, to get them in. I can keep some wind in them, furl them with much greater ease and without all the "drama".

Are you saying it is OK to furl the sails incorrectly as long as it "doesn't" break? You might call Harken and ask their opinion on using the winch under load on the jib. When it breaks it won't be fun. The mast could fall if the fore stay breaks.

The "Drama" as you put it is not for drama sake. Before the roller furling days that heading into the wind thing was the only way to get the sail down. The jib on the deck and the main to come down at all. It's not drama it is the correct way to do it. I can see some wind in the jib if it is truly light but when it becomes to much to pull in by hand it is time to head up a bit. The flapping is controlled by the sheets having some tension kept on them. The whole process cant take but 15-20 seconds.

Marc14857 · Apr 26, 2010

I would if I could but the power winch is on the starboard side of the coach roof and the main furler lines are on port. Though I've never tried it, looks like it would be a very sharp angle to get the furling lines from the clutches to the power winch.

Buck420 · Apr 26, 2010

Vinny said:
Are you saying it is OK to furl the sails incorrectly as long as it "doesn't" break? You might call Harken and ask their opinion on using the winch under load on the jib. When it breaks it won't be fun. The mast could fall if the fore stay breaks.

The "Drama" as you put it is not for drama sake. Before the roller furling days that heading into the wind thing was the only way to get the sail down. The jib on the deck and the main to come down at all. It's not drama it is the correct way to do it. I can see some wind in the jib if it is truly light but when it becomes to much to pull in by hand it is time to head up a bit. The flapping is controlled by the sheets having some tension kept on them. The whole process cant take but 15-20 seconds.

Vinny, I can only assume that you don't have an electric sheet winch.
If you did you would understand that just because the winch has an electric motor attached to it, doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to put excessive force on the furling line, much less pull the mast down, etc.

Why do you assume the sails are being furled "incorrectly as long as it doesn't break " ?? My (roller-furling) sails furl up just like yours, I just don't have to crank a winch handle, an electric motor does it for me. Depending on how it's used, the electric sheet winch can put as little force on the furling line as desired. And, I suspect, you could easily put excessive force on a furling line with a hand cranked winch if you tried.

As I said earlier, I've been ROUTINELY furling my sails with my electric sheet winch for 10 years without any damage to sails, roller furling gear, mast, or anything else; in a variety of wind conditions. If you feel it's safer or somehow more correct to hand crank your roller furling sails, that's great, to each his own.

And, yes, I was around (sailing) years ago and hanked on sails, hand cranked in (earlier versions of) roller furling head sails, and dropped and folded sails. IMHO, bringing in head-sails and mainsails using an electric sheet winch is way easier AND, if used reasonably, no less safe or risky than hand cranking them in.

nautikaljeeper · Apr 26, 2010

Marc14857 said:
I would if I could but the power winch is on the starboard side of the coach roof and the main furler lines are on port. Though I've never tried it, looks like it would be a very sharp angle to get the furling lines from the clutches to the power winch.

One wrap around port winch with furler line and straight across to power winch. Works great.

Vinny · May 2, 2010

Fred7825 said:
Vinny, you make some good points here but with birthdays taking their toll on the old body I am looking for some easier methods. As to the jib I usually turn the boat so that the main blankets the jib and then it easily furls. Using the electric winch would lessen the strain of sheeting in. As to the main I have been pointing up into the wind and again using the electric winch would ease that process also. It is not so much the tension on the sheets just the repetitive action that could be lessoned

Fred,

I have no problems with using an electric to sheet. Furling is a different thing.

Buck,

You are correct I do not have an electric winch but I do have a Winch Buddy that for the most part does the same thing so winch envy is not the problem. As I said I think you would find Harken doesn't condone the electric for furling your jib. But hey it's your boat and your money so knock yourself out. :dance:

Buck420 · May 6, 2010

Vinny said:
Fred,

I have no problems with using an electric to sheet. Furling is a different thing.

Buck,

You are correct I do not have an electric winch but I do have a Winch Buddy that for the most part does the same thing so winch envy is not the problem. As I said I think you would find Harken doesn't condone the electric for furling your jib. But hey it's your boat and your money so knock yourself out. :dance:

Vinny,

RE: " As I said I think you would find Harken doesn't condone the electric for furling your jib."
I doubt that Harken would advise me. Hunter delivered my boat w/ a "ProFurl" furling system (and also used ProFurl for most other Hunters that I am familiar with, that have been delivered during the past 10 years). ...
But to your point; there is no argument that IMPROPER use of an electric sheet winch can cause damage .... Indeed, Hunter refused to offer factory installed electric sheet winches for several years (~ 2003-2005), apparently, because of at least one instance of an owner causing damage to furling and/or mast thru incorrect use of the winch. They have since reversed themselves and now, again, offer electric sheet winch(es) for their larger boats.
So, your concern is quite valid, but, hopefully you would agree that...
"Guns don't kill people, people kill people".

RE: "Knock yourself out" ... That is precisely what I seek to avoid by using my "power" winch as I do. In fact, not only do I use it to sheet and furl , I even use it to help lift my RIB up into the davits... (even though I MIGHT rip the davits right off the stern

)... OK, maybe I'm a lazy cruiser, but at 62 I value NOT having back problems, etc., and I feel that if something is going to stressed from exertion , I'd prefer it be a boat part rather than me.... But, that's just me.
The fact that you have a "Winch Buddy" (a great piece of equipment), means that you also find "power assisted winching" desirable. Surely you have thought about (perhaps even tried) using your "Winch Buddy" to help furl your jib ? Perhaps it's use for furling isn't really practical on your boat, but, I suspect there have been times that you wish you could have used it to furl your jib, (even if you wouldn't admit it

).

Vinny · May 6, 2010

Buck,

My boat came with a continuous furling system (Hood I think) and I replaced it with a Harken, hence the reference to Harken.

I understand your points for using the electric winch but I try to be careful on this blog as to what I advise because there are a lot of inexperienced folks that read this and then go off and don't realize the consequences that may follow.

No I do not use the winch Buddy to sheet in or roll my furling we have it do to the fact that on a 40 the main is large and heavy. It gets to be a hand full if you raise it by hand so that is where the winch comes into play. At 66 I understand what you are talking about and that is why Three Sheets is presently on the market. We are headed for the dark side and will have a trawler here in the near future. In fact we were just up your way, Gloucester Point, to look at a Mainship 34 last weekend.

I think for the most part we agree that using the electric winch isn't for everyone and if it is used to furl you have to pay attention.

BrianH · May 13, 2010

I also use my electric winch on my 44ac to furl my jib as well as to lift my dinghy. One thing I have noticed is that when the load increases on the winch, you can hear the difference. If I hear a unexpected change in the sound the winch is making, I stop and check things out.

Marc14857 · Jul 25, 2010

Confession is Good for the Soul (I Hope)

Fred7825 said:
On a 44DS Hunter with an electric winch do you use it to furl the main? How about the jib sheet do you use the winch for that? What are some precautions to be aware of when using the electric winch for furling?
Thanks

Having been an avid supporter of using the power winch to furl my sails, I can now say that experience has taught me never to do it again. We were sailing from Cuttyhunk to Vineyard Haven on Martha's Vineyard last weekend having a great sail. About 4 miles out of Vineyard Haven we picked up that famous Vineyard Sound current and we were doing about 8 knots with 16 knots of wind on the starboard beam. We turned into the harbor and my wife headed the boat into the wind more or less and I went to furl the jib. I got about 2 or 3 turns by hand because the jib was still loaded and the harbor was crowded so rather then have my wife turn further into the wind I put the furling line on the power winch and only got an additional turn or two more. At this point the furler was jammed and I couldn't get the jib in or out. We headed up into the wind all the way and furled the main BY HAND, and I went forward to try and manually roll the jib around the foil. After being beaten up by the sail, the sheets, and loosing my Tilley hat overboard, I returned to the cockpit and put the jib sheet on the power winch to unfurl the jib and perhaps just lower it. I can't describe the horrific sounds that the furler made as the jib finally did unfurl but I was able to lower the sail and stuff it into the companion way. Once we were on the mooring I found that the furling line was badly fouled in the drum and the had to remove the drum to free the line. Also the furler now only rotates about 60 degrees in either direction before it binds solid. The furling line has all but sheared and the last turning block that the furling line feeds through at the cockpit no longer looks like a block at all. I can't imagine the tension that I put on the system. I suspect that I destroyed the lower bearing assembly of the furler something that the Selden rep will verify later this week. Next time I am going to furl the jib while going downwind like I was taught.

But I'm just getting started. Next morning we left for Nantucket and about 1/2 mile out of Vineyard Haven my wife noticed that we had lost the RPM indication and the low battery voltage alarm was on. I suspected a broken belt and returned to the mooring to find that the belt was still on and not slipping but the batteries were not charging. I called the very patient Balmar rep Rich, in Washington State who walked me through some troubleshooting which pointed to the regulator. Of course the regulator was out of warranty and the third party extended warranty company went into bankruptcy in 2009. Balmar shipped me out a new model regulator $200.00 overnight and believe it or not it did arrive the next day. I had arranged with the very fine folks at Vineyard Haven Shipyard to install and test the new regulator. Unfortunately the regulator was not the problem and after some additional troubleshooting with Balmar and the Vineyard Haven mechanic, we determined that the 3 year old 100 Amp alternator was bad. Of course Balmar hasn't made this particular alternator anymore but the replacement 120 Amp alternator, $500.00, would fit with just some very minor modifications. Had to replace plugs at the end of the regulator harness with ring lugs and the pulley was a little bigger and we were not sure that the belt would fit. Thanks to UPS the new regulator shipped across the country overnight and it was installed with some minor modification later that afternoon. The new alternator did solve the problem and the batteries were charging and the RPM indication was back. Having spent 3 extra days at Vineyard Haven, there are worse places, we decided to go back to Mystic, CT via Cuttyhunk the next day. The trip to Cuttyhunk was uneventful though later that night while we were on a mooring in the outer harbor during a thunderstorm my wife got up and noticed what we later found out was a 50 ft sailboat bearing down on us and the other boats in the mooring field. The captain was obviously confused and perhaps overwhelmed by the storm. Someone in a boat next to us jumped into a dinghy with a spot light and waved off the errant sailboat, finally helping him get onto a vacant mooring. I never had a chance to thank him but if he ever reads this post Thank You.

Friday morning we motored back to Mystic ( 8 hours) in a slight fog (the weather not us) and 6 to 8 foot rollers on the port bow. Not too bad a trip and the rollers became much smaller as soon as we past Point Judith. As a finishing touch however just as we entered the Mystic river for the 15 minute motor up to our marina, the sky's opened up with torrential rain, thunder and lightning. A not so perfect ending to a not so perfect and expensive vacation.

Vinny · Jul 25, 2010

Re: Confession is Good for the Soul (I Hope)

Marc,

Your just lucky that you didn't snap the forward stay and your mast could have come down.

Rick486 · Jul 26, 2010

Marc14857 said:
Having been an avid supporter of using the power winch to furl my sails, I can now say that experience has taught me never to do it again. We were sailing from Cuttyhunk to Vineyard Haven on Martha's Vineyard last weekend having a great sail. About 4 miles out of Vineyard Haven we picked up that famous Vineyard Sound current and we were doing about 8 knots with 16 knots of wind on the starboard beam. We turned into the harbor and my wife headed the boat into the wind more or less and I went to furl the jib. I got about 2 or 3 turns by hand because the jib was still loaded and the harbor was crowded so rather then have my wife turn further into the wind I put the furling line on the power winch and only got an additional turn or two more. At this point the furler was jammed and I couldn't get the jib in or out. We headed up into the wind all the way and furled the main BY HAND, and I went forward to try and manually roll the jib around the foil. After being beaten up by the sail, the sheets, and loosing my Tilley hat overboard, I returned to the cockpit and put the jib sheet on the power winch to unfurl the jib and perhaps just lower it. I can't describe the horrific sounds that the furler made as the jib finally did unfurl but I was able to lower the sail and stuff it into the companion way. Once we were on the mooring I found that the furling line was badly fouled in the drum and the had to remove the drum to free the line. Also the furler now only rotates about 60 degrees in either direction before it binds solid. The furling line has all but sheared and the last turning block that the furling line feeds through at the cockpit no longer looks like a block at all. I can't imagine the tension that I put on the system. I suspect that I destroyed the lower bearing assembly of the furler something that the Selden rep will verify later this week. Next time I am going to furl the jib while going downwind like I was taught.

But I'm just getting started. Next morning we left for Nantucket and about 1/2 mile out of Vineyard Haven my wife noticed that we had lost the RPM indication and the low battery voltage alarm was on. I suspected a broken belt and returned to the mooring to find that the belt was still on and not slipping but the batteries were not charging. I called the very patient Balmar rep Rich, in Washington State who walked me through some troubleshooting which pointed to the regulator. Of course the regulator was out of warranty and the third party extended warranty company went into bankruptcy in 2009. Balmar shipped me out a new model regulator $200.00 overnight and believe it or not it did arrive the next day. I had arranged with the very fine folks at Vineyard Haven Shipyard to install and test the new regulator. Unfortunately the regulator was not the problem and after some additional troubleshooting with Balmar and the Vineyard Haven mechanic, we determined that the 3 year old 100 Amp alternator was bad. Of course Balmar hasn't made this particular alternator anymore but the replacement 120 Amp alternator, $500.00, would fit with just some very minor modifications. Had to replace plugs at the end of the regulator harness with ring lugs and the pulley was a little bigger and we were not sure that the belt would fit. Thanks to UPS the new regulator shipped across the country overnight and it was installed with some minor modification later that afternoon. The new alternator did solve the problem and the batteries were charging and the RPM indication was back. Having spent 3 extra days at Vineyard Haven, there are worse places, we decided to go back to Mystic, CT via Cuttyhunk the next day. The trip to Cuttyhunk was uneventful though later that night while we were on a mooring in the outer harbor during a thunderstorm my wife got up and noticed what we later found out was a 50 ft sailboat bearing down on us and the other boats in the mooring field. The captain was obviously confused and perhaps overwhelmed by the storm. Someone in a boat next to us jumped into a dinghy with a spot light and waved off the errant sailboat, finally helping him get onto a vacant mooring. I never had a chance to thank him but if he ever reads this post Thank You.

Friday morning we motored back to Mystic ( 8 hours) in a slight fog (the weather not us) and 6 to 8 foot rollers on the port bow. Not too bad a trip and the rollers became much smaller as soon as we past Point Judith. As a finishing touch however just as we entered the Mystic river for the 15 minute motor up to our marina, the sky's opened up with torrential rain, thunder and lightning. A not so perfect ending to a not so perfect and expensive vacation.

I also own a 44DS and for the first two seasons there was a tendency for the jib furler to jam at the very end of unfurling the sail so that about a foot or so of sail was left on the foil and was stubbornly stuck there. Sometimes it would unfurl, sometimes not. Well this year early I finally troubleshot this issue and discovered that the furling line was not feeding at the Selden recommended angle to the furling drum. This was due to the incorrect placement of the fairlead block closest to the drum. So I simply added another fairlead block on the pulpit stanchion to correct the fairlead angle. Works fine now. No jamming. I know this is late and sorry to hear about your troubles but when you do reassemble the jib furler, take a look at that angle and the Selden manual recommendations. Don't know whether this caused your jam but it's worth looking at.

Rick486 · Jul 26, 2010

I forgot to mention that I also use the electric winch on my 44DS to furl the jib but my procedure is to blanket the jib behind the main and every two or three turns of the winch I take a pull by hand just to be sure it is freely turning. I also sometimes use the winch to furl the main as well but usually that is an easy pull so I don't bother. I use the electric winch also to tighten the outhaul line on the main to tighten the foot and eliminate the bulge. I am very careful to have the outhaul line marked though so that I don't over tighten. That line stretches though and eventually loosens the foot again. I think the key to safe use of the electric winch is just be very careful whatever job is done to be sure there is not a jam in the making. I do that by taking a pull by hand every so often to be sure.

Rick Sylvester · Jul 26, 2010

Count me

in the 'no way' camp.

The original equipment StreamStay genoa furler on Anthem had been jamming for months. I tried to pull it in by hand but had to use a small secondary sometimes. Even then, the seize-up in the furler would occasionally stop the winching. Had it been an electric winch I'm quite sure I'd have a deck full of blown blocks. Would it have brought the rig down? I doubt it, but it was the original forestay (25 yo) so who knows?

The big new Hood is absolutely frictionless. Hand over hand in spirited conditions is no problem. No winch (of any kind) necessary.

Do You Use The Electric Winch For The Furling Main

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