Do you use electronic navigation? Have you succumbed to the siren song of GPS, plotters, integrated radar, communicating instruments, on-board laptop computers, and navigation software packages? If so, was it worth the cost? Do you trust the results? Do you back up your electronics with time tested manual methods, or put full faith in the binary navigator? Share your position on navigation here, then vote in this week's Quick Quiz at the bottom of the home page.
- Status
GPS alone
When we bought the Lady Lillie, our h27 this year, our hand-held GPS was the biggest break-through since I learned navigation in the Navy, 31 years ago. We use it with piloting sightings, paper charts, dividers, parallel ruler, etc. We also use it instead of repairing our knotmeter. Yes, we do know about currents, but they are less of a factor here than they were in Key West. My biggest concern is that we lose some of the good discipline of working with the charts, since the bottom of Lake Erie is so friendly around Mentor, and the GPS seems to "tell all." We are considering equipping my laptop with a map series, and hooking it up to th GPS as the next step.
When we bought the Lady Lillie, our h27 this year, our hand-held GPS was the biggest break-through since I learned navigation in the Navy, 31 years ago. We use it with piloting sightings, paper charts, dividers, parallel ruler, etc. We also use it instead of repairing our knotmeter. Yes, we do know about currents, but they are less of a factor here than they were in Key West. My biggest concern is that we lose some of the good discipline of working with the charts, since the bottom of Lake Erie is so friendly around Mentor, and the GPS seems to "tell all." We are considering equipping my laptop with a map series, and hooking it up to th GPS as the next step.
Always a Backup
My primary navigational aid is the GPS. However, I have never been one to put all my eggs in one basket. I also have Loran C on board, a compass, a directional finder compass, and a sextant. Granted, the sextant is really not necessary with my type of sailing; however, it is a skill I acquired years ago and one which I practice to some degree. Here of late, it has been a winter pastime. "Whisper" came equipped with one compass, mounted on the bulkhead separating the salon from the head area (did absolutely no good there), a knotmeter, a depth indicator, a VHF and the Loran C (also mounted in the main cabin). I added a second compass and the directional finding compass. Love dead reckoning. Later, I added the GPS at which time I would have lost all my skills had I not enjoyed playing with the sextant and the art of dead reckoning using only the compass, charts, etc. Someday keeping up those skills may be justified; for now, it is a nice to have backup.
My primary navigational aid is the GPS. However, I have never been one to put all my eggs in one basket. I also have Loran C on board, a compass, a directional finder compass, and a sextant. Granted, the sextant is really not necessary with my type of sailing; however, it is a skill I acquired years ago and one which I practice to some degree. Here of late, it has been a winter pastime. "Whisper" came equipped with one compass, mounted on the bulkhead separating the salon from the head area (did absolutely no good there), a knotmeter, a depth indicator, a VHF and the Loran C (also mounted in the main cabin). I added a second compass and the directional finding compass. Love dead reckoning. Later, I added the GPS at which time I would have lost all my skills had I not enjoyed playing with the sextant and the art of dead reckoning using only the compass, charts, etc. Someday keeping up those skills may be justified; for now, it is a nice to have backup.
Sextants rule
Here on the Ches Bay we have little fog, and very well marked waterways. I do not even carry my sextant when on the Bay. When offshore I use GPS and celest.nav.
Here on the Ches Bay we have little fog, and very well marked waterways. I do not even carry my sextant when on the Bay. When offshore I use GPS and celest.nav.
Siren Song?
Describing the electronic navigation options as "siren song" is unfortunate since the sirens were supposed to actively lure mariners to destruction.. Several years ago as I was buying a Garmin GPS III, I got into a conversation with an older guy who was likewise looking over the offerings. Turned out he had been a bomber navigator in WWII . The wonder was all over his face, that and just a touch of chagrin, that such accuracy could be had by any dolt that could turn the thing on. ..... In the October issue of Sail is a short article about anchoring at the mid S Pacific Beveridge reef, completely submerged at high tide. This place, almost certainly avoided like the plague by all earlier sailers, had with gps become just a novel place to enter and anchor, with no land in sight. It evidently takes somebody like the world war II navigator to fully appreciate the wonder. The rest of us take it for granted after a bit. To calculate position within a boat width at one second intervals in any kind of weather, in any visibility is the stuff of dreams yet is available for little over a hundred dollars, .....and that's just the start of what any gps will do. To not use the gps as primary navigation tool would take an absolute ostrich mentality. A second $100 gps will go a very long way in providing backup. GPS is as revolutionary as was the magnetic compass in finding the way at sea. Sure the government can turn off the transmitters. We can and do lose electric utility power but few use candles as long as the light switch works.
Describing the electronic navigation options as "siren song" is unfortunate since the sirens were supposed to actively lure mariners to destruction.. Several years ago as I was buying a Garmin GPS III, I got into a conversation with an older guy who was likewise looking over the offerings. Turned out he had been a bomber navigator in WWII . The wonder was all over his face, that and just a touch of chagrin, that such accuracy could be had by any dolt that could turn the thing on. ..... In the October issue of Sail is a short article about anchoring at the mid S Pacific Beveridge reef, completely submerged at high tide. This place, almost certainly avoided like the plague by all earlier sailers, had with gps become just a novel place to enter and anchor, with no land in sight. It evidently takes somebody like the world war II navigator to fully appreciate the wonder. The rest of us take it for granted after a bit. To calculate position within a boat width at one second intervals in any kind of weather, in any visibility is the stuff of dreams yet is available for little over a hundred dollars, .....and that's just the start of what any gps will do. To not use the gps as primary navigation tool would take an absolute ostrich mentality. A second $100 gps will go a very long way in providing backup. GPS is as revolutionary as was the magnetic compass in finding the way at sea. Sure the government can turn off the transmitters. We can and do lose electric utility power but few use candles as long as the light switch works.
Navagation
I have a compass, depthsounder, GPS, Papercharts, Chartbook, VHF Radio both in the cabin and a remote at the helm along with a hand held VHF for redundancy. Last week I just purchased a Chartplotter/GPS to be installed at the helm therefore turning my handheld GPS into a redundant GPS. I am also expecting that I will purchase a basic radar for the boat but not tied into the Chartplotter/GPS. Sailing in New England which if fog prone I felt that it was a small investment to have all the electronics that would make me feel secure when peas soup fog rolls in. I have been sailing in New England for 5 years and, believe it or not, have never had encountered fog in my sailing trips. Just lucky I guess. I know there will be a first time and I want to get prepared. My wife and I did take the Coast Guard course in Advanced Coastal Navigation but have never had the need to use what we learned. I know it would be a good idea to keep current and use it every now and then but we just get into the sail and forget about non-electronic navigation.
I have a compass, depthsounder, GPS, Papercharts, Chartbook, VHF Radio both in the cabin and a remote at the helm along with a hand held VHF for redundancy. Last week I just purchased a Chartplotter/GPS to be installed at the helm therefore turning my handheld GPS into a redundant GPS. I am also expecting that I will purchase a basic radar for the boat but not tied into the Chartplotter/GPS. Sailing in New England which if fog prone I felt that it was a small investment to have all the electronics that would make me feel secure when peas soup fog rolls in. I have been sailing in New England for 5 years and, believe it or not, have never had encountered fog in my sailing trips. Just lucky I guess. I know there will be a first time and I want to get prepared. My wife and I did take the Coast Guard course in Advanced Coastal Navigation but have never had the need to use what we learned. I know it would be a good idea to keep current and use it every now and then but we just get into the sail and forget about non-electronic navigation.
WE use it all, but..
we record our lat/long and compass heading every 30 min and have the correct chart available if the electronics should fail... Dick McKee S/V Constellation
we record our lat/long and compass heading every 30 min and have the correct chart available if the electronics should fail... Dick McKee S/V Constellation
Nah, don't use none o' dat garbage!
Ok, well the Bronx accent probably didn't come through but the answer's the same. There's really little use for anything other than river charts & eyeball navigation here on the river. If you know where you're coming from & know, approximately, where you're going, you'll make it. Only two ways to go, you know! Now, up in Puget Sound (an on the way), it's dead reckoning mostly with GPS backup. Rob lent his sextant to a "friend" & never got it back. I have an el cheapo one I picked up at the Seattle boaters swap meet for $5 to learn on (don't tell, I haven't even picked it up!). I'll get there someday. LaDonna
Ok, well the Bronx accent probably didn't come through but the answer's the same. There's really little use for anything other than river charts & eyeball navigation here on the river. If you know where you're coming from & know, approximately, where you're going, you'll make it. Only two ways to go, you know! Now, up in Puget Sound (an on the way), it's dead reckoning mostly with GPS backup. Rob lent his sextant to a "friend" & never got it back. I have an el cheapo one I picked up at the Seattle boaters swap meet for $5 to learn on (don't tell, I haven't even picked it up!). I'll get there someday. LaDonna
Loran still works!
My '27 had a Loran installed when I acquired her. It does almost everything a simple GPS will do and I don't feel the need for a backup yet. Even when visibility is unlimited it is very useful in compensating for the strong tidal currents common in S.F. bay. A GPS is definitly on my list, but probably not much more than a basic hand held.
My '27 had a Loran installed when I acquired her. It does almost everything a simple GPS will do and I don't feel the need for a backup yet. Even when visibility is unlimited it is very useful in compensating for the strong tidal currents common in S.F. bay. A GPS is definitly on my list, but probably not much more than a basic hand held.
Hanheld GPS+Plotter for offshore, and..
handheld GPS for back-up , and ..fun ; lately , since no restriction on GPS accurancy , I use it as a speed-meter , when the mechanical one-Tridata- gets stuck with barnicles or weed ( which happens quit often , if not cleaned on weekly schedule..).
handheld GPS for back-up , and ..fun ; lately , since no restriction on GPS accurancy , I use it as a speed-meter , when the mechanical one-Tridata- gets stuck with barnicles or weed ( which happens quit often , if not cleaned on weekly schedule..).
Dual GPS and Paper
We have carried dual GPS on the great lakes and will have 3 next year. We use them for navigation but stick to paper charts as we would need them for backup anyway. We also carry compass,hand bearing compass, and log in case we would need to get along without the GPS system. This happens for brief periods, about 10 minutes a day, in the northern part of Green Bay.
We have carried dual GPS on the great lakes and will have 3 next year. We use them for navigation but stick to paper charts as we would need them for backup anyway. We also carry compass,hand bearing compass, and log in case we would need to get along without the GPS system. This happens for brief periods, about 10 minutes a day, in the northern part of Green Bay.
Lightning Protection
I have and use GPS on my boat, and GPS with PC based chartplotting and radar on a larger boat I'm on a fair amount. I do, however, back up to paper at the same intervals I would without the electronics (1 hour in fair weather, 15 minutes in foul or decreasing visibility). As a good friend discovered on his Nicholson last year, the lightning strike does not have to hit you to wipe your gear out. After discussing with a physicist friend, I now protect a backup GPS and radio as follows. I took an appropriately sized Pelican case and removed the foam. I lined the box with copper foil intenedted as SSB ground foil. The foil is cut so that the two halve (top and bottom) join when the box is closed. Repace the foam and insert the back up gear. The theory is that this thing is now a Van de Graff cage, and that it should protect the gear from anything short of a direct hit. I'm not quite hoping to get hit with lightning, but I do wonder if it works. Justin - O'day Owners' Web
I have and use GPS on my boat, and GPS with PC based chartplotting and radar on a larger boat I'm on a fair amount. I do, however, back up to paper at the same intervals I would without the electronics (1 hour in fair weather, 15 minutes in foul or decreasing visibility). As a good friend discovered on his Nicholson last year, the lightning strike does not have to hit you to wipe your gear out. After discussing with a physicist friend, I now protect a backup GPS and radio as follows. I took an appropriately sized Pelican case and removed the foam. I lined the box with copper foil intenedted as SSB ground foil. The foil is cut so that the two halve (top and bottom) join when the box is closed. Repace the foam and insert the back up gear. The theory is that this thing is now a Van de Graff cage, and that it should protect the gear from anything short of a direct hit. I'm not quite hoping to get hit with lightning, but I do wonder if it works. Justin - O'day Owners' Web
Actually, Justin...
...that's a Faraday cage. One of the lesser known causes of damage from lightning arises from inductive coupling. The intense fields generated by a strike can create (induce) a current in long, thin conductors (like small diameter copper wiring). I don't think your Faraday setup will do you much good since the problem arises primarily from the magnetic fields generated by current flow in the lightning discharge. A more ferrous material would provide better protection. Regardless, in my opinion it's a really moot point. As long as there are no long thin conductors attached to the instruments you are trying to protect, you can just store them on a shelf. Mark Kissel Kittiwake/98H240
...that's a Faraday cage. One of the lesser known causes of damage from lightning arises from inductive coupling. The intense fields generated by a strike can create (induce) a current in long, thin conductors (like small diameter copper wiring). I don't think your Faraday setup will do you much good since the problem arises primarily from the magnetic fields generated by current flow in the lightning discharge. A more ferrous material would provide better protection. Regardless, in my opinion it's a really moot point. As long as there are no long thin conductors attached to the instruments you are trying to protect, you can just store them on a shelf. Mark Kissel Kittiwake/98H240
Loran C here too, .......GPS coming next season
Our h27 came with a Loran C "Waypointer" beautiful unit, easy to use, 12 diget key pad. You can go from one waypoint to to the next one with the touch of one button only! Easy to enter waypoints by being there and locking in, or from anywhere by entering lat & lons. Sometimes gets funky when passing two intersecting signals....(read manual and difficult to explain the phenomenon) Next season I will be adding a GPS and mount it under the swivel bracket that the Loran is now on. I plan on using both at the same time as a back up. Oh, by the way, we use the chart all the time and mark our location with regularity (just in case the thing quits, we have a bearing to work with) Happy sailing....too bad the season is over up here in the north east. Boat comes out this weekend
Our h27 came with a Loran C "Waypointer" beautiful unit, easy to use, 12 diget key pad. You can go from one waypoint to to the next one with the touch of one button only! Easy to enter waypoints by being there and locking in, or from anywhere by entering lat & lons. Sometimes gets funky when passing two intersecting signals....(read manual and difficult to explain the phenomenon) Next season I will be adding a GPS and mount it under the swivel bracket that the Loran is now on. I plan on using both at the same time as a back up. Oh, by the way, we use the chart all the time and mark our location with regularity (just in case the thing quits, we have a bearing to work with) Happy sailing....too bad the season is over up here in the north east. Boat comes out this weekend
Two GPSs
Aboard our Hunter 31 (Endless Summer) we have two GPSs. We use a Garmin 45XL GPS and a Garmin 48 GPS. The mount is on the pedistal guard right in front of the driver, steerer, rudderer or helmer. The day (or days) before we make a move from one anchorage to another we make sure both GPSs have identical waypoints and the same route for the run. The Garmin 48 is our primary and the 45 XL is the backup. When the batteries run low on the primary we make sure the backup is up and navigating. We keep at least one fresh set of AA batteries in the cockpit. We have never had a problem losing our way. We thought about getting a Loran but couldn't find one, and then we heard from others that once you get away from the US (like the Bahamas) the Loran system may not work. When we made the 1200 mile drive down the ICW from Virginia to the Florida Keys we thought we would not need a GPS, and we did not have one. Who needs to navigate in a canal. We were wrong. There are a few places where the canal opens up into a very wide body of water and you can't see the next marker even with binoculars. A GPS would have been helpful in those situations. Also we found it essential to have all waypoints computed and entered in both GPSs before we shoved off. We had to compute and enter a few in route, but having most of the waypoints already in the GPS made route changes, while underway, very fast and easy. Having the backup GPS to steer by while making the changes was also very helpful. A safety tip is to have a second person verify every waypoint on the chart and in each GPS. Walking through the route waypoints and giving each bearing and distance between waypoints a "does it make sense" check the night before shoving off saved our butts a couple of times. Keep in mind, there are only a hand full of Nav Aids in the Bahamas, so the importance of the GPS takes on an entire new deminsion. Good Navigating! Roger Mummah
Aboard our Hunter 31 (Endless Summer) we have two GPSs. We use a Garmin 45XL GPS and a Garmin 48 GPS. The mount is on the pedistal guard right in front of the driver, steerer, rudderer or helmer. The day (or days) before we make a move from one anchorage to another we make sure both GPSs have identical waypoints and the same route for the run. The Garmin 48 is our primary and the 45 XL is the backup. When the batteries run low on the primary we make sure the backup is up and navigating. We keep at least one fresh set of AA batteries in the cockpit. We have never had a problem losing our way. We thought about getting a Loran but couldn't find one, and then we heard from others that once you get away from the US (like the Bahamas) the Loran system may not work. When we made the 1200 mile drive down the ICW from Virginia to the Florida Keys we thought we would not need a GPS, and we did not have one. Who needs to navigate in a canal. We were wrong. There are a few places where the canal opens up into a very wide body of water and you can't see the next marker even with binoculars. A GPS would have been helpful in those situations. Also we found it essential to have all waypoints computed and entered in both GPSs before we shoved off. We had to compute and enter a few in route, but having most of the waypoints already in the GPS made route changes, while underway, very fast and easy. Having the backup GPS to steer by while making the changes was also very helpful. A safety tip is to have a second person verify every waypoint on the chart and in each GPS. Walking through the route waypoints and giving each bearing and distance between waypoints a "does it make sense" check the night before shoving off saved our butts a couple of times. Keep in mind, there are only a hand full of Nav Aids in the Bahamas, so the importance of the GPS takes on an entire new deminsion. Good Navigating! Roger Mummah
Faraday Question
A faraday cage it is, thanks for the correction. Ok, I have heard from others that their electronics crap out from near-by lightning strikes, and that even handheld equipment that was not wired to the boat went off the air. Do you know any reason that this would happen? Is it possible that the charge was carried by the boat through the electronics' cases as the conductor? I understand that in theory they should be isolators, but does it have to do with the extremely high voltages? Justin
A faraday cage it is, thanks for the correction. Ok, I have heard from others that their electronics crap out from near-by lightning strikes, and that even handheld equipment that was not wired to the boat went off the air. Do you know any reason that this would happen? Is it possible that the charge was carried by the boat through the electronics' cases as the conductor? I understand that in theory they should be isolators, but does it have to do with the extremely high voltages? Justin
...Wednesday, Thursday, Faraday
Hi Justin, You ask some excellent questions! Since this thread is getting off topic concerning navigation, let's see if we can get Phil to help out. How about a quick quiz question something like, "Have you ever had a handheld device (GPS, VHF, radio, TV, etc.) damaged by a lightning strike?" The keyword being "handheld". We should emphasize that only devices with no connecting wires such as antennas or power cables be considered. I would be glad to answer as many questions as my limited knowledge will allow. What do you think, Phil? Mark Kissel Kittiwake/98H240
Hi Justin, You ask some excellent questions! Since this thread is getting off topic concerning navigation, let's see if we can get Phil to help out. How about a quick quiz question something like, "Have you ever had a handheld device (GPS, VHF, radio, TV, etc.) damaged by a lightning strike?" The keyword being "handheld". We should emphasize that only devices with no connecting wires such as antennas or power cables be considered. I would be glad to answer as many questions as my limited knowledge will allow. What do you think, Phil? Mark Kissel Kittiwake/98H240
Magnetic Media Too
If you use a computer with charts and logs on magnetic disc, then be sure they are locked in the Faraday Cage too. Magnetic media can be damaged by lightning transients very easily. Lightning behaves a lot like the Electromagnetic Pulse from a nuclear explosion. There's a tremendous burst of electro-magnetic energy and no 2 strikes will be quite the same. Just remember: Electricity is like people and always takes the path of least resistance. Ken S/V Wouff Hong
If you use a computer with charts and logs on magnetic disc, then be sure they are locked in the Faraday Cage too. Magnetic media can be damaged by lightning transients very easily. Lightning behaves a lot like the Electromagnetic Pulse from a nuclear explosion. There's a tremendous burst of electro-magnetic energy and no 2 strikes will be quite the same. Just remember: Electricity is like people and always takes the path of least resistance. Ken S/V Wouff Hong
Bump and Grind Sailing
Here on Barnegat Bay in New Jersey our navigation is by sight and feel. The tower of the nuclear power plant remains visable over virtualy the entire bay, as does the non functioning, but still beautiful Barnegat Light. As the average depth is 5 feet with no rocks on the bottom feel is a major factor. If the boat bumps and slows, you have probably stayed on your current tack a little too long. Last season I bought a $350 Magellan Map 410 hand-held mapping GPS to try to reduce the bumping. The built-in base map showed the outline of the bay but that was about it. The $100 addition of Magellan's "Map Send" charting software was an enormous help. By uploading the data to the Magellan I get reasonably accurate soundings and contours. It has opened up an enormous portion of the bay to us because we now have a much better idea of when we'll start bumping the bottom. The unit is mounted to the pedestal where the helmsman can see it if he gets just the right angle through his bifocals. I would call this unit adequate but certainly not inspired. Slow images and refresh and it occasionaly has trouble getting a proper boot-up. The original, defective unit was replaced by Magellan after I whined at them for a while. I have no interest in learning the nuances of navigation and I doubt I could get a fix and transfer it to a plot quickly enough to be of any use on the bay.
Here on Barnegat Bay in New Jersey our navigation is by sight and feel. The tower of the nuclear power plant remains visable over virtualy the entire bay, as does the non functioning, but still beautiful Barnegat Light. As the average depth is 5 feet with no rocks on the bottom feel is a major factor. If the boat bumps and slows, you have probably stayed on your current tack a little too long. Last season I bought a $350 Magellan Map 410 hand-held mapping GPS to try to reduce the bumping. The built-in base map showed the outline of the bay but that was about it. The $100 addition of Magellan's "Map Send" charting software was an enormous help. By uploading the data to the Magellan I get reasonably accurate soundings and contours. It has opened up an enormous portion of the bay to us because we now have a much better idea of when we'll start bumping the bottom. The unit is mounted to the pedestal where the helmsman can see it if he gets just the right angle through his bifocals. I would call this unit adequate but certainly not inspired. Slow images and refresh and it occasionaly has trouble getting a proper boot-up. The original, defective unit was replaced by Magellan after I whined at them for a while. I have no interest in learning the nuances of navigation and I doubt I could get a fix and transfer it to a plot quickly enough to be of any use on the bay.
- Status