Do we really cheat?
- Thread starter Ken Cross
- Start date
jssailem
SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
- Oct 22, 2014
- 24,523
I like the Tri Masted rig.. Now that would be some sailing. The foiled cats are fun to watch but it's not the real thing... Not for me. Let me see two matched monohulls -- 12 Meters -- go at it and lets see who are the better Sailors. That's what the Americas Cup was originally about.
The America's Cup has always been about cheating. While occasional getting match ups that pit sailors against sailors, it is primarily a design contest funded by deep pockets. Read Temple to the Wind. New Zealand has arguably the best sailors but they are lousy cheaters. Maybe that isn't fair. KZ1 was a pretty good effort to cheat.
"Cheating" implies not following the rules. The original "America" was purpose designed to be a fast race boat, based on existing NY Harbor pilot vessels, to win races and showcase American shipbuilding skills to Europe. If you imply that a sailing race should always be a class race in identical boats that just test the crew skills, that is one type of competition. America's Cup was never intended to be that competition, however. The competition always started at the design board, not the starting line!
I agree that AC has always been a design contest. "Cheat" may not be the best word. But throughout its history the design and racing have tested the edge of cheating. I didn't mean to imply one design is the only valid racing format.
As for the last rendition, I think the Americans did use a technology that wasn't allowed. I don't remember what it was and probably wouldn't understand it either. Hopefully someone can explain it.
As for the last rendition, I think the Americans did use a technology that wasn't allowed. I don't remember what it was and probably wouldn't understand it either. Hopefully someone can explain it.
Here is a short summary:
http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2016/03/06/50860/
I was shooting from the hip re the number of races and I got it wrong. Oracle Team USA won eight straight to make it 9-8.
http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2016/03/06/50860/
I was shooting from the hip re the number of races and I got it wrong. Oracle Team USA won eight straight to make it 9-8.
I never understood why pumping would be considered cheating. It's similar to the traditional cross-country skiers making the claim that skating is cheating, until they realized that they would have to do it to keep up.
[QUOTE="alexco38] Pushing the envelope isn't cheating is it ? [/QUOTE]
No, but mailing it without a stamp is.
No, but mailing it without a stamp is.
Any time we write a rule, we create the loopholes. Cheating is often described as not following the spirit of the rule when someone exploits the wording. However, teams need to use the loopholes created in order to advance and test the limits. We do not have to cheat if we realize the gaps created by the loopholes or what is not strictly prohibited.
Because sailing is racing propelled by wind and water only. Pumping means you're being propelled by human strength. Anyone wanting that should take up rowing!
I was at the the AC in SanFrancisco and the word on the docks was that Ellison pulled all the stops and had many lifting foil prototypes built and charter air freighted to his crew in a frantic attempt to find the right combination to start winning. I am sure that effort alone cost him many millions. And that in the end is what took the day - one competitor had more money than the other. In fact I believe that was the original strategy - take the technology to the bleeding edge and win by financial attrition.
It's an interesting controversy. I've read that pumping is not allowed on small one design classes, just as pinching and footing in a rhythm to gain windward advantage is also not allowed.
I don't really understand how that can be policed. In any case, the article seemed to imply that the rules for A/C were modified to loosen it up for pumping. It seems that pumping enabled the boat to get up on the foils quicker according to the article. I'm not sure why it would have anything to do with boat speed once the boats were up on foils and it doesn't sound like there would be anything to gain by pumping once the boat is up to speed.
Pumping is a legitimate way to get sailboards up on plane earlier.
Besides, all of the sailors train for brute strength and speed, so why is it illegitimate to use that physical strength for pumping? How is it any different than grinding faster or getting better leverage on the rail?
It seems to me that the issue that traditional sailors have most against it is that it goes against tradition. It's the same as the traditional cross country skiers used to argue against skating in cross country races. It used to be acceptable just to take a few skating steps to get up to speed to go into the traditional stride. But then, the racers figured out that they could change the design of their skis and boots and actually skate faster than stride. Once they broke out of tradition, the argument against it went by the wayside.
So it would seem to be the same thing in sailing. The object is to sail your boat faster than your competitor and you invest all kinds of training and technology toward that end. It seems silly to say ... nope, you can spend a fortune to develop your boat and sails and outspend your competitor, but you can't pump the sails to make your boat go faster. If it is a physical activity rather than a mechanical activity, it would seem to be an athletic endeavor that should be acceptable.
Like most type of racing, sailing rewards you being athletic; quick strong and fast.
But for maneuvers, not propulsion.
I agree pumping is a weird part of the rules. One 'pump' per puff? Huh.
And like RC boats and mega-yachts, the AC boats racing under their own version of the RRS. Don't try and read too much of what that do into what we do.
But for maneuvers, not propulsion.
I agree pumping is a weird part of the rules. One 'pump' per puff? Huh.
And like RC boats and mega-yachts, the AC boats racing under their own version of the RRS. Don't try and read too much of what that do into what we do.
I think the Fin class allows pumping (see link below) .. and it is for propulsion. I guess they are a bunch of cheaters LOL. Sailing seems to always have someone who wants to set some rules on how you use something you own..
https://www.finnclass.org/racing/le...d-the-finn-class-are-they-making-a-difference
Funny about Hobie TI's. You spend about $1300 or so on the mirrage drive pedals when you buy that boat. At a Hobie club sailing event, there is usually someone who thinks no one should be allowed to pedal as its cheating.. I bought that boat because of the pedals.. so find it very annoying when someone attempts to put some rules on how I use it (I always pedal sail - great work out plus its fun).
https://www.finnclass.org/racing/le...d-the-finn-class-are-they-making-a-difference
Funny about Hobie TI's. You spend about $1300 or so on the mirrage drive pedals when you buy that boat. At a Hobie club sailing event, there is usually someone who thinks no one should be allowed to pedal as its cheating.. I bought that boat because of the pedals.. so find it very annoying when someone attempts to put some rules on how I use it (I always pedal sail - great work out plus its fun).
That I agree with! The American boat shouldn't be allowed to bring in ringers. That is cheating! (Make America Great, Again!
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