Do U sail a fractional rig differently than a MH?

[tcbro]

I moved up from a H28.5 with a masthead rig to a H33.5 with a fractional rig. The H28.5 had a 155% genny and the H33.5 has a 150% genny. The fore-triangle of the H28.5 was 213 sq ft. and the 33.5's is 219 sq ft. The fore-triangles (and the gennys) are, for all intents and purposes, identical. The difference comes in with the main. The 28.5 had a 185 sq ft main but the main jumps way up to 301 sq ft on the 33.5. Obviously the 28.5 was driven by the genny and the 33.5 is driven by the main. How should I change my trim philosophy(?) and other aspects of my sailing? I have to believe that such a difference in sail balance should change my approach to sail trim. ANY INSIGHTS???Tom BrownS/V Orion's Child

 

[Rick D]

Mostly a Function of Emphasis

With a fractional rig, I concentrate on main trim first and then the jib. It is important that the main be fully drawing and the jib slot not be so tight as to cause the main to luff. In other words, you may see yourself with a looser jib trim than you were used to with the masthead. Just be more attentive of things like your vang, outhaul and traveller. Rick D.

 

[Steve O.]

what a coincidence...

I also went from a 28.5 to a 33.5. There is a difference. On the 28.5 I tended to reef the genny first, but with the 33.5 and her big main I now reef the main first. Also, the 28.5 with her fin keel pointed better than the 33.5 with her bulb-wing keel. I have played with the genny block position but found that mid-track works about 90% of the time.

 

[newly anonymous]

huge difference when going to weather

The position of the draft of the main is much more important on a fraction rig. On a masthead rig, sailing with an overlapping genoa, the luff of the main is being backwinded by the genny. The result is an ugly "luff bubble" that forces you to overtrim the main, and/or to adjust the draft too far aft. With a fraction rig, you'll actually find yourself easing the main a bit more, draft forward, so that the angle of attack matches that of the jib. Use a combination of halyard and cunningham tension to adjust the mainsail draft fore and aft, and you'll find you have a whole new array of sail trim options that you didn't have with a masthead rig. What you gain upwind, of course, is lost when sailing off the wind, at least until the spinnaker goes up. In other words, with a fraction rig, you become much more reliant on a chute.

 

[Alan]

Re: Frac rig

to Steve O, May I suggest that you invest in a set of Garhauer line adjustable genoa cars. A very small adjustment can make a hellava difference in genoa performance in different wind condition. On any given day ours gets a good workout.It's a real shame that 33.5/35.5 have such a godawful keel. I have a custom deep draft on my 35.5 and can point with the best of them. These boats have tremendous potential, but they need to be set up right. Last season we got involved with a fleet of about 15 J 105's. On a beat to the weather mark we smoked all of them.

 

[Tim McCarty]

I might as well get in on this...

...and I know someone from Hunter is monitering, but...I currently am the proud owner of a Hunter 29.5. It is a fractionally rigged boat. The advantage is it sails fairly close to wind, and offers a lot of control in rough seas (after reefing of course), and it's a piece of cake coming about. The disadvantages, at least with regard to MY boat, are that the Main is a real pain to raise, you need to reef from about 18 knots of wind (which can be difficult when singlehandling), and double reef at about 22-24 knots. Now I know Hunter will tell you that Masthead rig technology is a dinasaur, but I beg to differ. The jury is still out with me. Unfortunately, I found out from my dealer that the 29.5, historically, has a difficult Main to raise due to the shape of the mast rake. Anyway, I am probably moving back to a MH rig (a decision based more on design and creature comforts than rig dynamics), but I thought I would put in my two cents worth.

 

[Alan]

Tim

Maybe we can help! Mast rake has nothing to do with it. My mast is raked much more than most (15")and a 12 year old can raise it.First) Masthead or fractional rig has absolutely nothing to do with raising your main. It only affects how much halyard you need to pull in on the genoa.Second) Do you have trouble raising the main at the dock? If you have no trouble at the dock then you're doing something wrong when you're reefing. a) if you are struggling to raise the main at all times then look to your halyard sheeves or if you have a rap inside the mast. b) if you only have trouble reefing, make sure the cunningham, vang, and main sheet are all blown. There is no traveler to worry about. c) make sure that the luff grove in the mast is clean. DO NOT lubricate it. Sailcote or bees wax work great.

 

[Daryl2400]

You'll find it's ............

it's easier to control (tame) a fractional jib due to it's smaller area. The main, while larger is easy to control with the traveler and boom. Overall the vessel will be easier to sail but slightly more effort is required to raise the main.

 

[Tim McCarty]

To Alan...

Thanks for your response. The mast on the Hunter 29.5 is fairly unique, in that, at the top, Hunter built (into the extrusion) a "curve" resembling a mast with about 6" of rake. The difficulty in raising is (apparently) due to the slides going through this "curve". You are right though...I may have my terms confused. Either way, I do lubricate the slides with Sailcote, and loosen the vang, which does ease raising the Main. I don't have a Cunningham, but I do have a (small) traveller mounted on the steering pedestal. I'm 230lbs and lift weights on a regular basis, and the main is still a bear to raise. I did not have the problem on my old H27 MH rig. Really no big deal, but, I do see positives and negatives to both rigs.

 

[newly anonymous]

high modulus halyard

Tim, I'd bet anything that the problem isn't your rig, it's just your standing rigging. You'll find that by switching to high-modulus line to make a smaller-diameter halyard will help considably. If it were me, I'd also replace the sheeve at that point, which is a simple and inexpensive job, even if you have both the halyard and sheeve replacements done by a pro rigger. You won't believe hom much difference a high-tech halyard can make.

 

[tcbro]

Thanks for all the great input

Thanks to all you guys for responding.Rick, thanks for the tips, I've been noticing some of that stuff already.Steve O, H28.5-H33.5, all in all I'd say it was a good step. I also trimmed (& reefed) the genny first, then adjusted the main to match. My 28.5 could outpoint most of the boats I sail with. I'm still outpointing them and maintianing my position relative to speed but I feel like I'm pinching and should be going faster. Maybe I'm just used to being able to sail that high with the 28.5 and I am pinching. That's kind of what prompted the initial question, I was hoping to get a different approach to trim that would allow me to sail as high as I used to and at the same time take advantage of the speed that the longer waterline is supposed to bring. Maybe the real problem is that the bulb keel can't point as well and I'm forcing it. Old habits die hard.John, you're right, when going to wind on the 28.5 I'd trim the genny in tight, traveler up to weather and ease the sheet until the first 2 sail numbers fluttered. It may not have been pretty but it kicked a**. You use the halyard and the cunnungham to move the draft fore & aft? Not the outhaul? (my main is loose footed)Tim, I don't know what to tell you. Both of my Hunters had a lot of mast curve, put in with the standing rigging tune, not "pre-bent". If your mast is pre-bent maybe the top few sliders could be changed/modified to slide through the bend easier.Anyway, Thanks again for the response.Tom BrownS/V Orion's Child

 

[Fred Ficarra]

Lordy, everyone.

You guys should form an Americas Cup team. Or a English Language Team. It never ceases to amaze me how the English language can be used to accurately describe WIND BLOWING across sails! And the education system that makes the language work.

 

[Alan]

John,

Not to split hairs, but the rigging that you are talking about is not standing rigging, it's running rigging. I totally agree that halyards should be made from high modulus material because as the pressure increases on it the length increases and changes the shape of the sail dramatically.

 

[Fred Ficarra]

Alan, seeing as how you're splitting hairs,

(I wasn't going to point out the standing vs. running rigging) BUT now that you've got the ball rolling, Halyards aren't under pressure, they are under tension,,,,Your turn,

 

[newly anonymous]

forgive me

I wrote that during finals week at Stanford. Running rigging is correct. Did I mention I had a 15-page paper and a 10-page paper both due that week? ................ tcbro, use foot tension via the outhaul to adjust the depth of the draft, but use leach tension, via a combination of halyard and cunningham to move the draft forward/aft. Or is it leech tension, spelling-wise? Arg! My brain died! Heading to Mulege (Bahia de Concepcion) tomorrow for a couple weeks of extreme relaxation.

 

[Alan]

Is it necessary to have a pissing contest?

I don't need another turn.......I was simply pointing out what looked to me like a simple terminology error. Actually the incresed pressure is on the sails which translates to increased tension on the halyards. John, I can sympathize with the information input/output that you are going through, been there.