do people still use a compass?

KingAirDriver · Nov 23, 2013

I get alerts for pilots that advised us that in certain area's around Cape Canaveral Air Force Station, there would be GPS signal degradation tests.
And I have seen these for other locations as well.

So, if you are using GPS to navigate down the ditch, and using an autopilot etc, what do you think might occur?

Just throwing it out there for y'all to ponder. I saw signals degraded to inaccuracies of over 200 feet.

https://www.faasafety.gov/files/notices/2013/Jul/Cape_Canaveral_13-01_GPS_Flight_Advisory.pdf

https://www.faasafety.gov/files/notices/2013/Nov/Cape_Canaveral_13-03_GPS_Flight_Advisory.pdf

https://www.faasafety.gov/files/notices/2013/Nov/WSMR_13-19_GPS_Flight_Advisory.pdf

Keep this in mind when using electronic nav equipment.

justsomeguy · Nov 23, 2013

Chris Patterson said:
Huh? Last I heard, there are 14,000 satellites up there, of course not all navigating but whatever. So who's gonna get 'em all?. North Korea?

A few well-placed EMPs could do it.

kloudie1 · Nov 23, 2013

Learned nautical navigation from my dad at around 10 years old.. no electronics on board and mostly visual coastal.. then learned air nav using no electronics at about 14 years old .. in our family's old Cessna 120.. It had no radios, and back then (1962), none were necessary.. I always have a compass nearby .. on the boat, I have 3 gps units, but I also have 3 compasses and charts. I know that when steering at night on the open gulf, a compass is absolutely necessary.

jenquay · Nov 23, 2013

It wouldn't take a bomb. The satellites are controlled by computers. Bombing the computer isn't necessary, just hack it and we could have problems. Haven't there been times GPS systems were down or way off the mark because of computer glitches? My computers have been down many times but my compass has never failed.

WayneH · Nov 23, 2013

And a compass isn't always failsafe, either. The south floodgate at New Orleans has one humongous magnetic field in it. While traversing the gate, the compass on Impetuous swung 180 degrees and after clearing the gate, it returns to normal. We were so glad that we took the autopilot off before going through the gate.

centerline · Nov 23, 2013

WayneH said:
And a compass isn't always failsafe, either. The south floodgate at New Orleans has one humongous magnetic field in it. While traversing the gate, the compass on Impetuous swung 180 degrees and after clearing the gate, it returns to normal. We were so glad that we took the autopilot off before going through the gate.

but at this point of the voyage, one would hope that even the worst helmsman could navigate on visuals rather than needing his compass....

a person probably wouldnt have much problem with a good compass in an area where and when it was actually needed....

Tom J · Nov 23, 2013

Our autopilot went crazy one day as we motored from Provincetown, MA to Boston. A little ways off Minot Light, the autopilot heading suddenly jumped 20 degrees low and then 20 degrees high. The poor autopilot was trying to keep up and was throwing the boat all over the place. I disengaged the autopilot and noticed that the magnetic compass was steady and not reacting to whatever affected the flux-gate compass. Still not sure what happened, but an hour later, the autopilot was fine. Maybe all those granite ledges near Minot Light had something to do with it.

Rick · Nov 23, 2013

Chris that was great. I am still chuckeled over it. I havent had as much fun with a thread since (for the veterans of this site), we had the big discussion about whether a keel produces lift or not! Pure fun and its nice to see we can have a difference of opines here without just grabbing our shovel and leaving the sandbox!

Proviso: I agree not having a compass OF SOME KIND on your boat is foolish even for a coastal cruiser like me. I have never said that in a post.... only point was, where does it fall in price, application, and rank on a boat that does not have one.

Centerline: Well put. I have very thick skin and your post was great also. In 32 years of flying professionally ( sorry I dont count BugSmashers as real flight know how), I have never used the "standby" compass because that would mean I have lost all the redundancy on an airliner. In lets see, about 42 years of boating (yep ski boats etc), the compass has never been my last resort. I AM saying that I have 440 amp hours of 6 volt in parallel and series plus another 440 in 12 volt. So I must get lost on the California Coast or Washington Sound, or Mexican Coast for about 8 days before I dont have a charplotter.

Now many bring up the point of they LIKE to use the compass. Way neat. However one must keep in mind that the charplotter, like mine, is about 6 inches from it. I have "slung" the compass to take into account that the chartplotter is working, so if it is not, I must remember to adjust the actual compass heading for no ELECTRONIC interference which brings up a whole new thread about having a cocktail while sailing. Not going there! (Here is where you do your quick set and drift with a 12 degree error and see where you are in relation to your CMG)

I hope our original poster has got plenty of info about whether he wants to get that way cool big compass on a binnacle that he may or may not have! The cost of a simple chartplotter would probably be a boat buck wash to have something MODERN, or you get to pay 100 and hour (for it compass) to be fabricated and installed. Then keep that standby compass in the locker down below JUST IN CASE>

All really good stuff. Like how Rick D uses his. Not for going somewhere...but just to feel the boat. Nice!

Cheers

Delezynski · Nov 23, 2013

I may have posted this some place before. Seems this subject comes up a few times a year and I was going to not post, but.....

When we were going down the wast coast, I was on the mid watch (NO MOON, DARK night) and to stay alert and just play around, I decided to try an experiment.

I have a bulk head mounted compass. I also have a chart plotter mounted close to it.

The chart plotter has a number of options for display, like compass, road way, and a couple of others. I tried each mode.

So, I turned off the light on my compass. I WILL NEVER DO THAT AGAIN!

Yes, I could steer to the sound & feel of the waves, but NOT to the GPS for any length of time. Steering to the GPS compass was reacting to what had been, not what IS even with the update set to very rapid.

The real compass gave me a "feel" for how far AND how fast the boat was swinging through the arc! It allowed me to anticipate the tiller required to return to course.

I am normally a geek kind of guy, but NOT in this case.

Greg

Tom J · Nov 23, 2013

Delezynski said:
I may have posted this some place before. Seems this subject comes up a few times a year and I was going to not post, but.....

When we were going down the wast coast, I was on the mid watch (NO MOON, DARK night) and to stay alert and just play around, I decided to try an experiment.

I have a bulk head mounted compass. I also have a chart plotter mounted close to it.

The chart plotter has a number of options for display, like compass, road way, and a couple of others. I tried each mode.

So, I turned off the light on my compass. I WILL NEVER DO THAT AGAIN!

Yes, I could steer to the sound & feel of the waves, but NOT to the GPS for any length of time. Steering to the GPS compass was reacting to what had been, not what IS even with the update set to very rapid.

The real compass gave me a "feel" for how far AND how fast the boat was swinging through the arc! It allowed me to anticipate the tiller required to return to course.

I am normally a geek kind of guy, but NOT in this case.

Greg

Good point. I worked on a research vessel for a few years, and although we watched the computer screen to determine how far off the grid line we were, it was the compass that told us what the boat was doing. With experience, we could then anticipate what the boat would do and react accordingly.

rgranger · Nov 23, 2013

This thread has made me really want to go on a long slow night crossing with a 10 kt breeze off of my starboard quarter and a full moon rising off of the horizon. But I'm sitting at my desk at work on a SATURDAY. Every time one of you talks about "anticipating" the motion of the boat... I can almost feel my desk chair roll a bit.:neutral:

Delezynski · Nov 23, 2013

Rgranger,

Planning and dreaming is part of the fun! ENJOY the day.......

Greg

Rick · Nov 23, 2013

Delezynski said:
Rgranger,

Planning and dreaming is part of the fun! ENJOY the day.......

Greg

Man that picture says it all. Although probably not sailing with the compass at that point! So beautiful!

I do admit that I have an autopilot that will go to a waypoint, or keep a relative wind (apparent), or hold a compass heading... whaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh.

Great stuff and cheers to all my sailing brothers.

Kermit · Nov 23, 2013

rgranger said:
This thread has made me really want to go on a long slow night crossing with a 10 kt breeze off of my starboard quarter and a full moon rising off of the horizon. But I'm sitting at my desk at work on a SATURDAY. Every time one of you talks about "anticipating" the motion of the boat... I can almost feel my desk chair roll a bit.:neutral:

Don't need no stinkin' thread on compasses to make me want to do that!

Bill Roosa · Nov 23, 2013

There are legal issues also. Technically you have to have a certified for navigation GPS/plotter and have it installed by certified....... to "use it for navigation" The USCG does require that you maintain paper charts if you don't have all the certified systems. A means of determining direction is also something they will look for. The compass is so ubiquitous that you don't hear about "they did not have a method of determining direction" being cited much.

Delezynski · Nov 23, 2013

Rick said:
Man that picture says it all. Although probably not sailing with the compass at that point! So beautiful!

I do admit that I have an autopilot that will go to a waypoint, or keep a relative wind (apparent), or hold a compass heading... whaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh.

Great stuff and cheers to all my sailing brothers.

In the photo, we were heading North along the Cal. coast. We were on a compass course as I had not yet installed the chart plotter. And our Monitor wind vane was steering. It was a glorious day!!

The photo was taken by another Nor'Sea who was also heading north at the time. Our courses crossed at this point. The other Nor'Sea is now in New Zeland, I think.

Greg

25yearslater · Nov 24, 2013

I personally don't see the need on my boat. Sailing a heading on a 340 foot ship being tossed around on the Atlantic is a feat in itself and on a 27 foot sailboat a lesson in frustration. Funny how those cards spin with little provocation. I use the sails and wind direction for course determination. Cross check that with the sun's relative location or a star for that matter and holding a course is far easier. All a compass does is provide a heading at the instant of observation. Great for flat water but a torment for the bouncy stuff. A compass won't provide position which is the prerequisite to determine heading. Prudent, perhaps; necessary, no. The greatest prudence comes from knowing where you are and using all available information to conduct your vessel safely.

topcat0399 · Nov 24, 2013

magic 8 ball hehehe you're killin' me

I'm keeping my compass.

centerline · Nov 24, 2013

25yearslater said:
I personally don't see the need on my boat.... I THINK THIS IS A VERY POOR CHOICE, but ultimately your decision

I use the sails and wind direction for course determination.... JUST GO WHICH EVER WAY THE WIND BLOWS YOU

Cross check that with the sun's relative location or a star for that matter and holding a course is far easier.... IN THE FOG OR CLOUDY DAY YOUR OUT OF LUCK.

All a compass does is provide a heading at the instant of observation.... AS DOES THE OBSERVATION OF THE SUN OR A STAR...

A compass won't provide position which is the prerequisite to determine heading..... THIS STATEMENT IS NOT ENTIRELY CORRECT... DETERMINING POSITION CAN BE ACQUIRED BY THE HEADING, WHICH A COMPASS WILL PROVIDE... although this is not the only way to determine position if you have gps or sextent and know how to use it... and have a good view of the sky... and once you find your position, A COMPASS WILL HELP KEEP YOU CLOSE TO YOUR INTENDED COURSE...

Prudent, perhaps; necessary, no.... prudence = SMART!!!

using all available information to conduct your vessel safely.... WHICH, IF YOU ARE TO BE CONSIDERED TO HAVE ANY SEAMANSHIP IN YOU AT ALL, YOU WILL HAVE A COMMON COMPASS ABOARD TO GAIN THIS INFORMATION FROM WHEN NECESSARY...

no matter how good of navigators we think we all are (and some that actually are), if you get into a situation where the electronics fail and you have no landmarks, or sky observations... without a compass you have no where to go until you can get a bearing somehow. with a compass and some knowledge of where you were before the electronics went out, you can still maintain some headway in the general direction of your intended route.... a compass still BELONGS on a boat.

all boiled down, it can be summed up and said that the bigger the body of water, the more important is the compass, and its the electronics that arent necessary... learn to navigate with a compass, and if you can afford it, get the electronics for the convenience of them, as they do make it easier when working properly.... and the compass has a much lower failure rate than electronics do.