I am attempting to purchase a used sailboat. I have seen 20-30 and made offers on three. All three (after inspection) have had such major problems I have not been able to complete the deal. I am not sure if my broker is being completely honest. I feel like he is trying to push every broken down tired old boat my way. How can I find a boat that is in excellent shape before I pay for an inspection?
- Status
Ask a good friend
Have a knowledgeable friend come along on your initial visits. It will be like a second opinion.
Have a knowledgeable friend come along on your initial visits. It will be like a second opinion.
Barnum was right but...
Hi Mike, Obviously you are not one of them if you are seeking answers on this forum. You'll find friends here who are willing to help you find your perfect boat while not charging you a penny. We only ask that you share your experiences with us so we can learn too. You may already know exactly what you're looking for but it would be helpful to the rest of us if you could answer a few questions. 1. What are you looking for? 2. Where will you keep it? 3. Where will you sail? 4. How long will you sail at one time? 5. What's you price range? Given this information, I'm sure the people on this forum will graciously give you their honest opinions on what to get and where to look for it. Happy sails, MArk
Hi Mike, Obviously you are not one of them if you are seeking answers on this forum. You'll find friends here who are willing to help you find your perfect boat while not charging you a penny. We only ask that you share your experiences with us so we can learn too. You may already know exactly what you're looking for but it would be helpful to the rest of us if you could answer a few questions. 1. What are you looking for? 2. Where will you keep it? 3. Where will you sail? 4. How long will you sail at one time? 5. What's you price range? Given this information, I'm sure the people on this forum will graciously give you their honest opinions on what to get and where to look for it. Happy sails, MArk
What's your budget?
And how old are the boats you're looking at? What size? If you're trying to find a 40 footer for $20,000 it stands to reason you'd run into a few problems. On the other hand, if you're seeking a 20 footer and have $20,000... you may have a few questions for your broker. ph.
And how old are the boats you're looking at? What size? If you're trying to find a 40 footer for $20,000 it stands to reason you'd run into a few problems. On the other hand, if you're seeking a 20 footer and have $20,000... you may have a few questions for your broker. ph.
What's your budget?
And how old are the boats you're looking at? What size? If you're trying to find a 40 footer for $20,000 it stands to reason you'd run into a few problems. On the other hand, if you're seeking a 20 footer and have $20,000... you may have a few questions for your broker. ph.
And how old are the boats you're looking at? What size? If you're trying to find a 40 footer for $20,000 it stands to reason you'd run into a few problems. On the other hand, if you're seeking a 20 footer and have $20,000... you may have a few questions for your broker. ph.
Your Mental Filters Are Working
Don't look on the bad side of these fallen deals, consider yourself a prudent shopper with relatively high expectations who has a sharp eye for a good boat and listens to his surveyor. You just have not found it yet. You will, and it will have a minor bag of problems associated with it and no "big surprises". Sounds to me like you are doing everything right. Be patient. And if you have lost confidence in your broker, move on to another. Be sure to tell him/her why you are. These high pressure hucksters need to be weeded out of the industry. Best of luck. Don
Don't look on the bad side of these fallen deals, consider yourself a prudent shopper with relatively high expectations who has a sharp eye for a good boat and listens to his surveyor. You just have not found it yet. You will, and it will have a minor bag of problems associated with it and no "big surprises". Sounds to me like you are doing everything right. Be patient. And if you have lost confidence in your broker, move on to another. Be sure to tell him/her why you are. These high pressure hucksters need to be weeded out of the industry. Best of luck. Don
Too many to count
Mike, Good news! I did a search on boattraderonline.com (related link) for all sailboats for sale around Miami in area codes 305, 786 and 954. The search returned over 400 boats! (the maximum for search returns) With this many boats for sale in your backyard you are bound to find exactly what you're looking for. Happy sails _/), MArk
Mike, Good news! I did a search on boattraderonline.com (related link) for all sailboats for sale around Miami in area codes 305, 786 and 954. The search returned over 400 boats! (the maximum for search returns) With this many boats for sale in your backyard you are bound to find exactly what you're looking for. Happy sails _/), MArk
Paul is right, . . .
take a friend. Surely you know someone knowledgeable enough to save you the cost of too many surveys. A good survey on a 30-footer is going to cost $400. or more, how many of those do you want to do? And you really need to answer Phil's and Mark's questions. There should not be that many choices. Of the thousands of used boats around the Great Lakes only six met my criteria. I chose two and the first one failed the survey. Story of my life, 50-50 chance and I missed.
take a friend. Surely you know someone knowledgeable enough to save you the cost of too many surveys. A good survey on a 30-footer is going to cost $400. or more, how many of those do you want to do? And you really need to answer Phil's and Mark's questions. There should not be that many choices. Of the thousands of used boats around the Great Lakes only six met my criteria. I chose two and the first one failed the survey. Story of my life, 50-50 chance and I missed.
Do I have 'SUCKER' written on my face?
1. What are you looking for? Stable cruising, 32-40’ in above average cond. 2. Where will you keep it? In the slip year round 3. Where will you sail? Locally only 4. How long will you sail at one time? Probably up to 5 hours 5. What's you price range? Up to $65,000
1. What are you looking for? Stable cruising, 32-40’ in above average cond. 2. Where will you keep it? In the slip year round 3. Where will you sail? Locally only 4. How long will you sail at one time? Probably up to 5 hours 5. What's you price range? Up to $65,000
Some to look at
Hey Mike, Here are a few in Florida that fit your requirements. You should be able to find a boat in excellent condition and not more than 20 years old in your price/size range. 1987 Hunter Legend 37 $57,500 http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/8/6/33805386.htm 1987 C&C 33 $41,000 http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/5/0/36694450.htm 1987 Hunter Legend 37 $64,900 http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/1/8/32171718.htm 1986 Catalina 34 $55,500 http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/6/4/27590464.htm 1989 Hunter 32 $45,000 http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/3/3/2092633.htm 1995 Beneteau 321 $58,900 http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/4/0/34375440.htm Happy sails _/), MArk
Hey Mike, Here are a few in Florida that fit your requirements. You should be able to find a boat in excellent condition and not more than 20 years old in your price/size range. 1987 Hunter Legend 37 $57,500 http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/8/6/33805386.htm 1987 C&C 33 $41,000 http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/5/0/36694450.htm 1987 Hunter Legend 37 $64,900 http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/1/8/32171718.htm 1986 Catalina 34 $55,500 http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/6/4/27590464.htm 1989 Hunter 32 $45,000 http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/3/3/2092633.htm 1995 Beneteau 321 $58,900 http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/4/0/34375440.htm Happy sails _/), MArk
Mike
MArk has laid out some good choices from what is available.Note to MArk.... Your input to this site is good. Thanks for taking the incredible amount of time to find all the sites that you post. Mike,please remember that if you are looking at the bottom of the price range you will probably find a lower end boat. You really need to define your needs and wants much better. Then investigate the boat prior to initiating a survey or you will spend a bundle in surveys. If you have gotten surveys on other boats, take the time to see what and how they survey so that you are more aware of what you are looking at and develope your own presurvey. Remember that once you own this boat you are the one that will need to know all the thru-hulls, electric system, plumbing, rigging, etc. An average boat has problems. You will need to develope an understanding of what is tooooo bad and what is acceptable. You will not find a perfect boat. Alot of boats are sold because the owner just decides that "I don't feel like maintaining it anymore." Yes there will be things to repair but some repairs you should do just to get to know the boat and others you probably don't need to do, like a bottom job, let someone else do it. Another source of used boats is "yachtworld.com" This is where I found mine. Remember to keep an allowance in your budget to include the maintenance and upgrading you will want to do. I have never seen a boat that was perfect and that didn't have something I wanted to change. Good luck in the search, r.w.landau
MArk has laid out some good choices from what is available.Note to MArk.... Your input to this site is good. Thanks for taking the incredible amount of time to find all the sites that you post. Mike,please remember that if you are looking at the bottom of the price range you will probably find a lower end boat. You really need to define your needs and wants much better. Then investigate the boat prior to initiating a survey or you will spend a bundle in surveys. If you have gotten surveys on other boats, take the time to see what and how they survey so that you are more aware of what you are looking at and develope your own presurvey. Remember that once you own this boat you are the one that will need to know all the thru-hulls, electric system, plumbing, rigging, etc. An average boat has problems. You will need to develope an understanding of what is tooooo bad and what is acceptable. You will not find a perfect boat. Alot of boats are sold because the owner just decides that "I don't feel like maintaining it anymore." Yes there will be things to repair but some repairs you should do just to get to know the boat and others you probably don't need to do, like a bottom job, let someone else do it. Another source of used boats is "yachtworld.com" This is where I found mine. Remember to keep an allowance in your budget to include the maintenance and upgrading you will want to do. I have never seen a boat that was perfect and that didn't have something I wanted to change. Good luck in the search, r.w.landau
I think Mark's advice. . .
is very good. I am personaly biased for the Legend 37.5 We bought a 1991 in 2000 for 87,000 the boat was loaded, radar,auto pilot etc, with very few minor problems that I could handle on my own. I think your main problem is your broker. You need to find one who will actually listen to your needs, rather then just throw boats at you. Chris s/v Tidesong
is very good. I am personaly biased for the Legend 37.5 We bought a 1991 in 2000 for 87,000 the boat was loaded, radar,auto pilot etc, with very few minor problems that I could handle on my own. I think your main problem is your broker. You need to find one who will actually listen to your needs, rather then just throw boats at you. Chris s/v Tidesong
Do I have 'SUCKER' written on my face?
Thanks for all the good advice. I plan to see two boats this weekend. When I check these boats out is it appropriate to do the following: Hoist the sails to inspect Test all electronics Test bilge check keel bolts Also I have thought about using a diver to check the bottom before I make an offer.
Thanks for all the good advice. I plan to see two boats this weekend. When I check these boats out is it appropriate to do the following: Hoist the sails to inspect Test all electronics Test bilge check keel bolts Also I have thought about using a diver to check the bottom before I make an offer.
Owner Reviews for Everyone
To all new to these sailboatowners sites: For anyone looking to buy a used Beneteau, Catalina, Hunter, MacGregor or O'Day your first stop should be the owner's review from the appropriate sailboatowners website: www.beneteauowners.net (the odd ball with .net) www.catalinaowners.com www.hunterowners.com www.macgregorowners.com www.odayowners.com I've found that these owners are very candid about their experiences with their boats. They will generally give you their honest evaluation; both the good and the bad. An extremely valuable resource. Happy sails _/), MArk
To all new to these sailboatowners sites: For anyone looking to buy a used Beneteau, Catalina, Hunter, MacGregor or O'Day your first stop should be the owner's review from the appropriate sailboatowners website: www.beneteauowners.net (the odd ball with .net) www.catalinaowners.com www.hunterowners.com www.macgregorowners.com www.odayowners.com I've found that these owners are very candid about their experiences with their boats. They will generally give you their honest evaluation; both the good and the bad. An extremely valuable resource. Happy sails _/), MArk
You are the first Surveyor
First go to Yachtworld.com and check prices and equipment offered on the same boat. Then open every cabinet, crawl thru every little space you can. Run the engine; check the oil and trans fluids. Run every piece of electronics you can. Check the sails. Do what ever you need to satisfy yourself. Read any logbooks on board. Remember you are the first SURVEYOR. When you are happy then put a bid on the boat that is reasonable to you remembering what other boats are going for. If accepted then hire a surveyor. Good Luck
First go to Yachtworld.com and check prices and equipment offered on the same boat. Then open every cabinet, crawl thru every little space you can. Run the engine; check the oil and trans fluids. Run every piece of electronics you can. Check the sails. Do what ever you need to satisfy yourself. Read any logbooks on board. Remember you are the first SURVEYOR. When you are happy then put a bid on the boat that is reasonable to you remembering what other boats are going for. If accepted then hire a surveyor. Good Luck
Mike
You are the buyer. The owner/agent needs to make you feel good about buying the boat. When you are spending that much, I would ask to make sure all the systems work. You may want to postpone the diver. Many boats are bought through a process. Look at the boat. Know what you are looking at.If you do not ask the owner/agent to explain it to you (and your knowledgable buddy that you take with you).When you find a boat you think is in good shape and meets your needs, give a bid based on other boats you have seen, other prices being asked and the advice of your broker. Qualify your bid that it depends on a survey and sea trials. Try to negotiate who will pay for repairs if the survey has some negative results as part of the offer.(maybe off the bottom line) Have the owner present the boat on the hard so that there is no question as to the hull condition. It is impossible to do a complete survey if the boat does not come out of the water. Then require sea trials. Have the owner/ agent take you and whoever out on the boat and checkout the boat. You may want to do this before an offer is made. It depends on if the boat is currently in the water or on the hard. This should convince you that the boat is in good shape. If you like the boat and find problems during the survey or sea trials this should could give you some negotiating ability. Again, you are the buyer, make the owner show you that the boat is worth what you are paying for it. It may be that if you make an offer and the owner will not put the boat on the hard, you may want to have it pulled and a survey done at your expense. A diver may not have survey knowledge and miss something. Again, this is just some input. Each boat deal goes it's own way. r.w.landau
You are the buyer. The owner/agent needs to make you feel good about buying the boat. When you are spending that much, I would ask to make sure all the systems work. You may want to postpone the diver. Many boats are bought through a process. Look at the boat. Know what you are looking at.If you do not ask the owner/agent to explain it to you (and your knowledgable buddy that you take with you).When you find a boat you think is in good shape and meets your needs, give a bid based on other boats you have seen, other prices being asked and the advice of your broker. Qualify your bid that it depends on a survey and sea trials. Try to negotiate who will pay for repairs if the survey has some negative results as part of the offer.(maybe off the bottom line) Have the owner present the boat on the hard so that there is no question as to the hull condition. It is impossible to do a complete survey if the boat does not come out of the water. Then require sea trials. Have the owner/ agent take you and whoever out on the boat and checkout the boat. You may want to do this before an offer is made. It depends on if the boat is currently in the water or on the hard. This should convince you that the boat is in good shape. If you like the boat and find problems during the survey or sea trials this should could give you some negotiating ability. Again, you are the buyer, make the owner show you that the boat is worth what you are paying for it. It may be that if you make an offer and the owner will not put the boat on the hard, you may want to have it pulled and a survey done at your expense. A diver may not have survey knowledge and miss something. Again, this is just some input. Each boat deal goes it's own way. r.w.landau
boat brokers
Mike, first suggestion is if you feel the broker is "trying dump ever old boat you way" DUMP THE BROKER !Find another broker to deal with or at least another broker in that office. Make your info clear and tell him you don't want to waste your or his time.There are alot of reputable broker however there are also alot of bad brokers!There are alot of boats with in your range and he (the broker)should have a general idea of the condition.However it seams that the brokerage industry (with a few exceptions) prices everthing high and as if it is pristine,some of this is because owners have tainted views of there own boat and its condition,or because they expect you to make price adjustments.At any rate you might consider a change of broker or maybe don't use a broker and look at some boat for sale buy owner. Good Luck!
Mike, first suggestion is if you feel the broker is "trying dump ever old boat you way" DUMP THE BROKER !Find another broker to deal with or at least another broker in that office. Make your info clear and tell him you don't want to waste your or his time.There are alot of reputable broker however there are also alot of bad brokers!There are alot of boats with in your range and he (the broker)should have a general idea of the condition.However it seams that the brokerage industry (with a few exceptions) prices everthing high and as if it is pristine,some of this is because owners have tainted views of there own boat and its condition,or because they expect you to make price adjustments.At any rate you might consider a change of broker or maybe don't use a broker and look at some boat for sale buy owner. Good Luck!
If you're financing ..
I'd wait on the diver as they will likely not be able to see blisters, etc. through the accumulated dirt. More importantly, if you are financing, the lender will likely require a full survey, which will involve hauling the boat anyway. Insurance company may also require the full survey although there are some ways around it. Typically, once you have a signed contract with the seller, the buyer pays for the haul out and survey (and a sea trial.) If you don't like it, you walk away - which is apparently where you've been. If you haven't already talked to a surveyor, I'd suggest you find one independently and get the low down on the process. Also, your financing company can explain the process up front. When I bought my 37.5, I was amazed at the detail and thoroughness of my surveyor (in NC.) In fact, I'd fly him anywhere that I am looking at a new boat in the future. Forget the broker and find a good surveyor.
I'd wait on the diver as they will likely not be able to see blisters, etc. through the accumulated dirt. More importantly, if you are financing, the lender will likely require a full survey, which will involve hauling the boat anyway. Insurance company may also require the full survey although there are some ways around it. Typically, once you have a signed contract with the seller, the buyer pays for the haul out and survey (and a sea trial.) If you don't like it, you walk away - which is apparently where you've been. If you haven't already talked to a surveyor, I'd suggest you find one independently and get the low down on the process. Also, your financing company can explain the process up front. When I bought my 37.5, I was amazed at the detail and thoroughness of my surveyor (in NC.) In fact, I'd fly him anywhere that I am looking at a new boat in the future. Forget the broker and find a good surveyor.
Don't pay for survey till you've inspected it
"How can I find a boat that is in excellent shape before I pay for an inspection?" That seems to be your main question, and I'm not sure it's been well answered. I'm also in the process of buying a boat, so I'm sympathetic to the problem. Get the broker to get you a copy of the boats most recent survey. Unless it's a one owner boat, it is almost sure to have been surveyed before. That can identify lots of problems like blisters early on, which otherwise are undectable until you pay for the travellift. Then give it as thorough of an inspection as you can, with a friend even better. Expect to spend a couple of hours checking it out. Go with a checklist of things that you need to inspect, and a checklist of features that you want. Make sure you cover every one. Here's a start: Lift floor boards, open cabinets, etc. Don't be shy; look for mold, condition, water, rust, etc. Operate everything you can. You probably won't be allowed to run the motor initially, but you can look it over. Check fan belt, hoses, and oil, that can give you some idea about the maintainance that's been done. Operate all thru-hull valves, run/pump the water, pump the head, turn on electronics. Go around the outside of the hull as much as you can, inside and out, tapping the hull and visually inspecting it. Walk all over the deck feeling for soft spots. Examine the joints of the rigging where they join the chainplates etc, look very closely for cracks. Even minut cracks are bad. Do same for lifelines. Remove sail cover and inspect it and the sail. You probably can't take the boat out (that's a sea trial, you can do that after you make an offer but before you pay for the survey) so if there's any wind you can't raise the sails, but you can inspect them pretty good on the deck. Unfurl a few feet of genny if there's a roller furler. For both sails, check for crispness of the material and condition of the stitching and edges.
"How can I find a boat that is in excellent shape before I pay for an inspection?" That seems to be your main question, and I'm not sure it's been well answered. I'm also in the process of buying a boat, so I'm sympathetic to the problem. Get the broker to get you a copy of the boats most recent survey. Unless it's a one owner boat, it is almost sure to have been surveyed before. That can identify lots of problems like blisters early on, which otherwise are undectable until you pay for the travellift. Then give it as thorough of an inspection as you can, with a friend even better. Expect to spend a couple of hours checking it out. Go with a checklist of things that you need to inspect, and a checklist of features that you want. Make sure you cover every one. Here's a start: Lift floor boards, open cabinets, etc. Don't be shy; look for mold, condition, water, rust, etc. Operate everything you can. You probably won't be allowed to run the motor initially, but you can look it over. Check fan belt, hoses, and oil, that can give you some idea about the maintainance that's been done. Operate all thru-hull valves, run/pump the water, pump the head, turn on electronics. Go around the outside of the hull as much as you can, inside and out, tapping the hull and visually inspecting it. Walk all over the deck feeling for soft spots. Examine the joints of the rigging where they join the chainplates etc, look very closely for cracks. Even minut cracks are bad. Do same for lifelines. Remove sail cover and inspect it and the sail. You probably can't take the boat out (that's a sea trial, you can do that after you make an offer but before you pay for the survey) so if there's any wind you can't raise the sails, but you can inspect them pretty good on the deck. Unfurl a few feet of genny if there's a roller furler. For both sails, check for crispness of the material and condition of the stitching and edges.
In addition to Owner Reviews
Mike MArk's web search suggestions were good ones. In addition, try the owner's association websites, like the one below, which is in your price and size range. These are in addition to the ...owners'com types of sites and are posted by volunteers who like their boats and want to share experiences, in many cases very valuable technical information that could save you either a bundle of $ or grief or both. Try checking out the FAQs on the link. Also, check all sorts of links available in many other places on the web to read more about folks' experiences. This also assumes you have the budget, but haven't narrowed down the exact size and make. Once you narrow that down, you can get a lot more specific and do a lot more research on the web on your specific model and year. That will help you get more specific about the things you need to start looking at that may be particular to certain makes and/or models. Good luck, keep us posted.
Mike MArk's web search suggestions were good ones. In addition, try the owner's association websites, like the one below, which is in your price and size range. These are in addition to the ...owners'com types of sites and are posted by volunteers who like their boats and want to share experiences, in many cases very valuable technical information that could save you either a bundle of $ or grief or both. Try checking out the FAQs on the link. Also, check all sorts of links available in many other places on the web to read more about folks' experiences. This also assumes you have the budget, but haven't narrowed down the exact size and make. Once you narrow that down, you can get a lot more specific and do a lot more research on the web on your specific model and year. That will help you get more specific about the things you need to start looking at that may be particular to certain makes and/or models. Good luck, keep us posted.
- Status