Disgusting and unnecessary

Status
Not open for further replies.

LuzSD

.
Feb 21, 2009
1,009
Catalina 30 San Diego/ Dana Point, Ca.
Sunday we ventured out of San Diego Bay in search of better wind. We decided to go out to the entrance buoy off Point Loma; I guess it is about 3 miles out. Unfortunately we found little wind but what we found was at least 3 evidences of dumped heads likely recent and very obvious. I cannot understand why boats with reasonably ready access to dump out stations all over the area would be so lazy or thoughtless as to dump in our ocean, particularly there. I do understand that the law says 3 miles out is acceptable, and I can understand when out to sea and no other choice, but 3 miles off a very populated bay is disgusting and so unnecessary.
We were in a race last year, NOT 3 miles out and a member of our club was along side as we prepared for our start……. There was some mention of weight for some reason and the captain of the other boat said with a grin…. “yep, just lightened mine” and the we smelled it. I am still irritated with myself for not doing something about that…….but my point is that it is not the derelict boats that do this, it is the guy next door and the next commodore, it is the guy we have drinks with later in the day……. I don’t understand this mentality.
 

Rick D

.
Jun 14, 2008
7,204
Hunter Legend 40.5 Shoreline Marina Long Beach CA
Luz, you did say three miles out right? Unless this was a large commercial vessel (and there are some) that emptied it's tank, there should have been no 'evidence' unless you were slatting in glassy conditions five feet away from them with no tide or current running. There is zip possibility this would in any way impact the water quality of the coast. I suspect you are more reacting to the idea of discharge than the reality, but I totally agree using a pump out is more desirable. Having said that, there is but a bare minimum available and too many are out of order. Having tried to pump out on the bay on several trips, I just don't bother and empty my holding tank when offshore. BTW, there are tide lines that look (and sometimes smell) just like holding tank discharge in the morning conditions before the chop sets in that lay right out by the kelp beds. Could it be that's what you were seeing? I have seen them way too long drifting in morning conditions on overnight races :-o Regardless, your point is well taken.
 
Jan 22, 2008
880
Fed up w/ personal attacks I'm done with SBO
This practice will continue until those in authority over slips and moorings adopt a black water dye program. It's been done in Avalon for decades and Newport is in the process of establishing the requirement for visiting boats. For California, I think it's only a matter of time.

BTW, the reason for the dye program in Avalon was due to the high bacteria count in the water there. Of course, the boaters were assumed to be at fault. Now, after decades of a no discharge policy confirmed by the dye program, the water still tests out to be some of the worst in terms of bacteria levels in the state. So who gets blamed next?
 

LuzSD

.
Feb 21, 2009
1,009
Catalina 30 San Diego/ Dana Point, Ca.
Rick, maybe you are right, I don't know what it was if not recent discharge. It had every characteristic of what that looks like. including some tp floating nearby. Our goal was to get out to the entrance buoy the head back in and it struck me that likely that is exactly what one might do if they need to get 3 miles out and do that....it was exactly in line with the bay and the buoy.

You are correct though, I think I really dislike the idea that this is ok, and struggle with it being done when there are choices. I would agree that making more noise about ensuring more pumpouts in good working order is necessary if we expect people to comply. Nothing like spending 2 hours circling waiting for the pump, only to find it is not working well. Agreed and point taken. Thanks for responding. I am just frustrated.
 
Feb 26, 2004
23,360
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
You might want to vent your frustration at the release of millions of gallons of raw sewage from your local "treatment" plants when it rains and the effluent from dirt washing off streets.

I think Rick is right, it's a BIG ocean out there, coulda been a whale, but they don't use tp, do they?

The tide comes in and the tide goes out...

There are MUCH, MUCH more contributors to waste than a small sailboat's holding tank(s).

The Canadians fought for years over this. Pumpout or else the govt said. NO, NO, the boaters said. We'd do it if you put in pump out stations. The govt didn't, and changed the law to allow pumping holding tanks in waters that moved it out.

Let's be real here. Where do you think YOUR stuff goes from your house? Or, for that matter, from your local friendly pump out station?

If you were 3 miles out, that's the line. And there are also what we call "fleb" lines here": where the currents coming and going meet and create nasty patches of nasty crap.

That's the way it is.

Your concern about human waste is well placed, but it's gotta go somewhere. And unless it's plastic (don't get me started) it's gonna dissolve and be essentially menaingless in the whole scheme of things that this planet and its inhabitants face.
 
Last edited:
Feb 26, 2004
23,360
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
This practice will continue until those in authority over slips and moorings adopt a black water dye program. It's been done in Avalon for decades and Newport is in the process of establishing the requirement for visiting boats. For California, I think it's only a matter of time.

BTW, the reason for the dye program in Avalon was due to the high bacteria count in the water there. Of course, the boaters were assumed to be at fault. Now, after decades of a no discharge policy confirmed by the dye program, the water still tests out to be some of the worst in terms of bacteria levels in the state. So who gets blamed next?
Given that, why bother with the dyes at all?

Boaters are usually among the most environmentally friendly folks you'd ever meet.

My holding tank is always used when in port or at anchor or a mooring. What's so hard about doing that?
 
Jan 22, 2008
880
Fed up w/ personal attacks I'm done with SBO
Given that, why bother with the dyes at all?
Agreed, Stu. The thing about the dye program is boaters that dump overboard tend to do it further offshore.

The reason I offered the Avalon story was to illustrate that those who make the policies are quick to jump to conclusions without the least bit of real information. In the case of Avalon, the dye program exonerated the boaters yet the powers that be still won't admit the obvious, therefore the dye program continues as well as the bacteria problem. And now it's expanding to Newport.

Bureaucrats: "The problem simply must be the fault of the boaters because we said it was and we couldn't possibly be wrong. Even if we are wrong, we'll never admit it and changing the policy might look like we're wrong so we can't do that either. So to make us look like we were right all along, let's expand the policy whether it works or not."
 

Benny

.
Sep 27, 2008
1,149
Hunter 320 Tampa, FL
I have always wondered who decided that 3 miles out was the proper distance to allow the discharging of holding tanks. I wonder what arguments won the day against those that may have proposed 2.5 miles out or those that insisted 4 miles was better. I suspect these arguments had very little to do with public safety. The reality of it is that the pollution created by pleasure boat discharges are insignificant. I hate to be the bearer or bad news but the pollution created in a very populated Bay is actually created by its inhabitants and it is not coming from 3 miles out to sea. Thirty gallons of dilluted waste discharge at sea does not even make a drop in a bucket. Disgusting is a word I reserve for when I use a portalette at a boat show at the end of the day and I do not hear anyone clamoring that they be banned. I'm a responsible boater, I know I'm not doing any harm by discharging at sea and I follow the law and wait till I'm three miles out. The majority of the time I use pump out facilities at marinas.
 

LuzSD

.
Feb 21, 2009
1,009
Catalina 30 San Diego/ Dana Point, Ca.
disgusting was the perfect word for what we sailed through, although I could be completely wrong about WHAT that disgusting stuff was. I get that people polute a bay, I am just not getting why, when there is a pump out nearby, why not use it.
 
Sep 25, 2008
2,288
C30 Event Horizon Port Aransas
Turds are definitely gross, but my biggest complaint about boaters is the fuel and oil in the water IN the marina. I think I have one of the best slips in the marina. My car is 40' away, and there is a nice place to walk the dog complete with bags provided for his waste.
Unfortunately, I am against the bulk head and the prevailing winds blow whatever is on/in the water straight to my slip. Yesterday there was so much black oil around my boat and I could smell it until the tides took it out. And plastic bags! I have had to disassemble the AC intake twice since I got here 3 days ago. I need some kind of giant basket that I can lower down on a pole or something and cover the intake.
 
Nov 22, 2008
3,562
Endeavour 32 Portland, Maine
There was just a long segment on NPR about a researcher discovering that whale poop if very beneficial to fish populations. Whales are unique among large sea creatures in pooping on the surface. Declines in whale activity along the coast deprive fish, indirectly through algae and other small surface creatures, of food.

Excessive discharge by boats in small and poorly flushed harbors is probably a bacteria problem but offshore discharge in the amounts that yachts can produce probably helps more than it hurts.
 

Joe

.
Jun 1, 2004
8,323
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
LuzSD, you realize, of course, that San Diego discharges its sewage directly into the ocean a few miles off Point Loma. A few years back the discharge pipe ruptured about half way out and I am unsure as to whether it has been repaired yet.

The dye argument is irrelevent in this case. This wasn't a case of a faulty y-valve or someone dumping inside the bay or on their mooring, they just didn't go out far enough and the tide was going the wrong way.

I see brown streaks near the entrance to Mission Bay on occassion, but I always blame the fishermen or commercial vessels....

By the way, where do you think all the seals and dolphins discharge their holding tanks.

So, relax and let it go.... even though it seems disgusting just remember that it is biodegradable.. oil and fuel are a much, much bigger problem.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,760
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
You are correct though, I think I really dislike the idea that this is ok, and struggle with it being done when there are choices. I would agree that making more noise about ensuring more pumpouts in good working order is necessary if we expect people to comply. Nothing like spending 2 hours circling waiting for the pump, only to find it is not working well. Agreed and point taken. Thanks for responding. I am just frustrated.
LuzSD,

Your efforts would go considerably further if you contacted your state and local governments to clean up the effluent that is likely dumped directly into the bay when a big rain comes. I would bet good money that San Diego dumps raw sewage into the ocean or bay just as many, many, many other cities do.

All the boaters in Casco Bay, here in Maine, can't equal in an entire season what our own water district dumps into the bay with each inch of rain.

This effluent dumps in completely untreated as "overflow". Many cities do this while at the same time raising your water bill to "pay for" the fixing of the system that prevents this. We have gone from a $22.00 per month water bill to over $100.00 and they have changed NOTHING. The boaters are usually not the problem, the residents living near the bay are, at least every time they flush, yet they all point the fingers at us boaters...


Hypocrisy at its best...

Here's a few excerpts from the Portland Press Herald from just a last spring.

Quote Press Herald: "Every time a steady rain falls on Maine, millions of gallons of untreated sewage and storm water overflow collection pipes and spill into streams and coastal waters. More than half of that pollution pours out of pipes scattered around the city of Portland. Overflows in the city last year totaled about 1.8 BILLION gallons - about 30 million gallons for every inch of rain. Portland was supposed to begin a three-phase, 15-year cleanup plan in 1993. But as of the end of 2006, two years before the original deadline, the city had eliminated just six of 33 targeted overflows, according to the state."

By the way we have had record setting rains a number of times since that article was written. One storm we saw 6" of rain or 180 million gallos of raw, untreated sewage. How many BILLIONS of gallons of poop is that when you spread it out over a year?

So where is the outrage over 1.8 plus BILLION gallons of RAW sewage? Where is the ACTION instead of the LOUD VOICES of these folks telling others how to live. They tell me what light bulbs I should be using in my house and that Casco Bay is now a NDZ yet every citizen in Portland is allowed to dump their poop DIRECTLY into the bay with no fines, or risk of it. Of course I would be fined at the federal level if even 1 oz of poop got into the bay from my boat and I got caught..?

Quote Press Herald:
"When we have (overflows), we're getting human waste, we're getting storm water and we're getting industrial effluent. It does have an effect on the ecosystem," said Joseph Payne, bay keeper for the nonprofit Friends of Casco Bay" "Why haven't they made progress when 36 other cities have?" said Sen. John Nutting, D-Leeds."


That's a very good question coming from a supposedly "environmentally friendly"senator from one of the most environmentally friendly states in the country. Hmmm do they really care about the environment? Apparently not! Making Casco Bay an NDZ is a total scam and a bunch of feel good politics to help politicians look as if they do something when they really do nothing. The same bay, the above article was referencing, is the one made an NDZ (No Discharge Zone) just last year while our state government decided to look the other way on 1.8 BILLION plus gallons of raw sewage!

When will the feel good attacks on boaters, and other small segment groups stop, and real legislation be accomplished? Maine is also the state where the US Green party was founded! 1.8 BILLION gallons and supposedly "environmentally friendly" Maine has done nothing except to go after a few boaters who already complied with the laws far better than our own state?:doh:

The treated waste coming out of the Lectrasan I had on one boat was far cleaner than ANY of the 1.8 BILLION gallons allowed to be dumped into Casco Bay by our own GOVERNMENT! With Maine being the second highest taxed state in the country you'd think we would have the funds to fix our sewer systems but as usual there is no real action and only a bunch of empty talk and attacks on the "low hanging fruit" or the "easy targets" to make our elected officials look as if they actually work for a living.

Politicians attack these small segments of the population, like us "evil boaters", because it's easy, and it looks good in campaigns and 30 second sound bites. Making themselves look good is priority #1 and it's usually done at the cost of the environment and furthermore in a class warfare style, very frustrating for anyone with even half a brain. After all we boaters are rich and we can all afford to rip our Lectrasan units out, which are cleaner than what the state dumps into the bay, right?

I try VERY HARD to not dump within three miles., and I agree it's not wise, but we have VERY, VERY few working pump outs in Maine despite our NDZ designation.

How can I feel bad, or should I, the once a season I actually may have to dump my 6 gallons 2.8 miles off shore, as opposed to 3, on an outgoing tide? 6 gallons vs. 1.8 BILLION I'm sorry it's just hard to feel guilty with the blatant hypocrisy of it.

That being said I don't dump inside the bay, even well before legislation, and am usually at least a minimum of 2.5+ miles out and always on an outgoing tide if I absolutely have to dump. Just being honest here.

For the last 15 plus years I have been paying dearly for this supposed "clean up" of the Portland, ME raw sewage issue in increased sewer charges but NONE of that money, not one DIME, has been spent on it. We are now facing 50% percent increases in our sewer bills over the next 6 years to "pay" for this. We've been charged for it since 1993 but now they can't find the money??????!!!!!!

Such hypocritical junk!

Sorry for the rant.. ;)
 

Rick D

.
Jun 14, 2008
7,204
Hunter Legend 40.5 Shoreline Marina Long Beach CA
Probably Commercial Vessel

I suspect it was a commercial vessel of some type, most likely a tour boat. I have seen a lot of tour & dinner boats going in and out of harbors empty to head offshore and have never yet seen one pump out. They may have treatment systems aboard but I doubt it. I suspect they regularly go out to just three miles and dump. What Luz saw sounds like it was not macerated as it would have been from most pleasure vessels.
 
Nov 22, 2008
3,562
Endeavour 32 Portland, Maine
Sorry for the rant..
Enjoyed and appreciated here. I'm old enough to remember cruising when 99.9% of boats were just straight piped overboard. I never saw or smelled anything where I cruised. I remember accounts of small and crowded harbors would getting nasty but never experienced it. I used to sail in Boston Harbor back when the ENTIRE CITY was straight piping into it due to the failure of the old sewage plant and it wasn't noticeable except for the occasional plastic tampon applicator floating by.

Like a lot of the TSA BS, the NDZ thing is mostly a manifestation of Voodoo politics. We can't do anything about the real problem so we make a little doll and stick pins in it to make ourselves feel better.
 
Sep 29, 2008
1,981
Catalina 310 #185 Quantico
Follow Up

There was just a long segment on NPR about a researcher discovering that whale poop if very beneficial to fish populations. Whales are unique among large sea creatures in pooping on the surface. Declines in whale activity along the coast deprive fish, indirectly through algae and other small surface creatures, of food.

Excessive discharge by boats in small and poorly flushed harbors is probably a bacteria problem but offshore discharge in the amounts that yachts can produce probably helps more than it hurts.
Many years ago when I was in the Navy we use to do our refits in Rota, Spain. The tender we used in those days discharged directly overboard. Every time someone flushed a toilet and it hit the water there would be a bunch of thrashing in the water as the fish devoured it. Then about 100 yards away would be some Spainard fishing for the great fish they caught. We called them SH*t fish.

As I was just barely 18 the first time I saw the crystal clear water, I was told to never swim in it. After seeing the discharge off of the tender I knew why.
 
Aug 21, 2006
203
Pearson 367 Alexandria, VA
Re: Follow Up

I live on the Potomac River in sight of Washington, DC which dumps close to 4,000,000,000 gallons raw sewage into the Potomac River each year..

Quote from WTOP "According to WASA (Water and Sewer Authority), 1,282,000,000 gallons of CSO will make its way into the Anacostia in 2008. Nearly twice what is pumped into the Potomac and Rock Creek combined. "

When asked about the raw sewage residences were told, "It sounds like a lot of sewage, but the Potomac River is a larger river and we should not be concerned." I guess this combined with the fact that much of it comes from government officials who's stuff does not stink we should be OK.

I on the other hand have been lead to believe if I dump my 15 gallon holding tank into the Chesapeake Bay I will destroy it.

One may be reminded of the old adage, “Do as I say, not as I do.”
 
Jan 27, 2008
3,092
ODay 35 Beaufort, NC
An option if you care. I have rigged a hose to allow me to use the macerator pump to pump the holding tank into a 6 gallon plastic container (same as a diesel fuel tank or water tank) that then allows me to pour the resulting liquid waste into a suitable toilet either at home or other location. While a bit nasty it saves having to go out past three miles or constant trips to the pump out dock if you can find one. Just a suggestion. I just disconnect the hose to the overboard discharge and put it in the jug and pump away.
 

RichH

.
Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
If you want to really experience disgusting and unnecessary ..... do your research and look at the effluent data from large municipal sewage plants.
 
Feb 26, 2004
23,360
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Maine Sail wrote: Many cities do this while at the same time raising your water bill to "pay for" the fixing of the system that prevents this. We have gone from a $22.00 per month water bill to over $100.00 and they have changed NOTHING.

What makes it even crazier, in addition to that, is that the government FINES the polluting plants, who then raise the rates to pay the bloody fines!!! We as taxpayers and ratepayers get a double whammy.

Those ba*tards.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.