Not sure if I'm posting this as a means to vent my frustration, or to gather some opinions and feedback from those that I respect here at HOW. My issue is that I am interested in starting to do some racing this summer and was in the process of getting things together towards that end. I needed to get my sails measured for ratings certificates and needed to get numbers applied. So I took them into a local loft (major unnamed sailmaker), asking just that - measure sails, apply numbers. From the moment I was there, the sail/sales guy that I was dealing with was immediately trying to push me towards new sails and trying to talk me out of racing the race that I was targeting. I told him I was confident in my, and my crews abilities, that we weren't looking to take a first, we were just looking towards the experience of the race. Still he continued to push. He advised me that I needed storm sails, which is true, but then tried to sell me a $2000 solution. At this point, I was so frustrated, I just wanted my sails back so that I could move on. I went to pick up my sails and he wasn't in, but some of their helpful staff were able to locate my sails and help me get them loaded in the truck, telling me that they were running behind on invoicing and that I'd get a bill in the mail in a week or so. Well, the bill came and here is what put me over the edge. I was originally told to expect $20/sail to measure (4 sails), $7/digit for numbers (20 digits 2jibs, and main, both sides). Okay, so I'm expecting a bill of $260 or so. The bill was $685. It seems there were some repairs that they felt were necessary and fixed them for me. Never asked, never informed, just did the work. I called them today and spoke to the owner, he admitted that the work ticket only said measure and number, but assured me that the repairs were necessary. He was willing to make the bill an even $500, but I'm still upset that the work was done without approval. I feel like I took my car in for new tires and they replaced the brakes because they felt that they were ready to be replaced. Now, I know in the big scheme of things, sailing is not an inexpensive sport, especially when looking at racing, and that we're only talking about a couple of hundred bucks. But I've got a family with kids and not a lot of money to throw around. I'm stuck now with do I pay him the $500 that he was "nice enough" to adjust to, or the $260 that was for the work authorized. I think I know what I'll do. And I can tell you I've already been to another loft in town that was MUCH more accommodating and understanding of my position. They got my order to solve my storm sail requirement, and will get any future sail work that I need done. Thanks for listening to my rant, I feel a little better now. T J
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Sail loft
TJ, you're fortunate to be located where you have options. Move on to someone else. Hank
TJ, you're fortunate to be located where you have options. Move on to someone else. Hank
About Repairs
I have had my sails in to sailmakers a few times over the years nad have always found they added some minor (but needed) repair in addition to what they were taken in for. Frankly, they were in the hundred dollar or less range, and were needed, so I didn't complain. In fact, the repair work was pretty reasonable. I guess they just figure if you go to that much trouble, it would be silly to overlook some minor repair work, and I don't disagree, altho they seem to put themselves at risk by not checking first. However, $400 or even $250 seems a little much to assume. RD PS: regardless, a good rant.
I have had my sails in to sailmakers a few times over the years nad have always found they added some minor (but needed) repair in addition to what they were taken in for. Frankly, they were in the hundred dollar or less range, and were needed, so I didn't complain. In fact, the repair work was pretty reasonable. I guess they just figure if you go to that much trouble, it would be silly to overlook some minor repair work, and I don't disagree, altho they seem to put themselves at risk by not checking first. However, $400 or even $250 seems a little much to assume. RD PS: regardless, a good rant.
A contract work
A pushy salesman - I can't stand those! You are obligated to pay for what was specified in the original work-order contract/agreement, and not a penny more, especially if they did work without first discussing it with you. It's like you said - you bring your car for a minor scratch repair and they decide to paint you whole car and charge you for it accordingly - nonsense! But I think you already made the right decission! Good luck
A pushy salesman - I can't stand those! You are obligated to pay for what was specified in the original work-order contract/agreement, and not a penny more, especially if they did work without first discussing it with you. It's like you said - you bring your car for a minor scratch repair and they decide to paint you whole car and charge you for it accordingly - nonsense! But I think you already made the right decission! Good luck
You're probably within your rights....
but if the loft did do the work then under the common law of "unjust enrichment" they may have a basis to ask you to pay the bill. That said you can fight this and pay only that part of the bill for which you originally contracted, and the loft ought to have called you (they did try didn't they?) and check with you before putting their hand in your pocket. If they decide to take you to court and can prove that they did the work a good judge will probably do what the loft owner did in the first place which was to reduce the charges so that everyone gets a little and no one gets everything they want. I suppose that goes in the "lessons learned" slot. In the future I'd make it clear to the loft that no work is to be performed withour prior permission/notice from the owner of the sails. I'd even have that noted on the pick up receipt. For now; if you are sure that they, in fact, did the work I'd take the reduced price and pay for the work and move on to another loft in the future. Good luck in your racing adventure. Mike S/B Pitterpat, Lake Huron
but if the loft did do the work then under the common law of "unjust enrichment" they may have a basis to ask you to pay the bill. That said you can fight this and pay only that part of the bill for which you originally contracted, and the loft ought to have called you (they did try didn't they?) and check with you before putting their hand in your pocket. If they decide to take you to court and can prove that they did the work a good judge will probably do what the loft owner did in the first place which was to reduce the charges so that everyone gets a little and no one gets everything they want. I suppose that goes in the "lessons learned" slot. In the future I'd make it clear to the loft that no work is to be performed withour prior permission/notice from the owner of the sails. I'd even have that noted on the pick up receipt. For now; if you are sure that they, in fact, did the work I'd take the reduced price and pay for the work and move on to another loft in the future. Good luck in your racing adventure. Mike S/B Pitterpat, Lake Huron
We had the same issue
We had the same problem when we took our sails in for cleaning. We were stuck with a $400.00 bill. This appears to be a standard occurance that most sailors put up with. I think you are correct that you are only responsible for the work contracted. We did pay the bill as the work was needed. We just made them wait till the money came available in the budget. In retrospect we should have refused to pay in an effort to stop this sketchy practice. They should call before soing any unauthorized work.
We had the same problem when we took our sails in for cleaning. We were stuck with a $400.00 bill. This appears to be a standard occurance that most sailors put up with. I think you are correct that you are only responsible for the work contracted. We did pay the bill as the work was needed. We just made them wait till the money came available in the budget. In retrospect we should have refused to pay in an effort to stop this sketchy practice. They should call before soing any unauthorized work.
Our experience.
We just had our sails cleaned and had a new sacrificial stripe sewn on our Genoa. The firm we used was Doyle sails in Annapolis. they quoted us a price when we dropped the sails off, in the fall. A few weeks ago we were to pick up the sails. ...During the down time we also had a canvas maker build us a new sail cover..... Just before we were to pick up our sails...we received a call from the canvas maker that they made our sail cover in the wrong blue..... We went back and forth and they gave us the option of taking the wrong color at a 50% discount.... we did....So we then called UK sails..is it still possible to change the sac cover to the new color....they said no problem..and did. A few weeks later we go down to pick up the sails..... Sails are done..packed and I wanted to take a look at the new stripe...they pulled the sails and they look great...however I notice they are no sheets in the bag....So I ask where are the sheets?..We go in the back and look, no sheets... I thought for sure I placed them in the bag last fall.....They said they would check with the firm that washed the sails and ship them to us...and if they didn't have them they would replace them at no charge to us!....so we go home..some what satisfied. The following weekend we go to the boat to install the sails....I'm looking through a locker to get some temporary sheets to rig on the genny...and what do I find????...the original sheets....well with my tail between my legs we reinstall the sheets and I call Doyle Sails thank them for everything and tell them I have the sheets...they thank me and we are all cool...We get the invoice and its exactly what was quoted..no upcharge to change the color of the sac stripe....very satisfied.....Then the canvas guy calls...said the cover is done..we pick it up the following weekend...bring down to the boat...colors match...we install...half of it fits the other (around the mast) doesn't...even though they made the trip to the boat and measured themselves...we go back and forth....they then tell me they are going to build us a new one from scratch in the original color...(No it has to be the new color now because we had Doyle change to the second color) They will have it next week...we are still awaiting that result...maybe Ill be pleasantly surprised when I go to the boat tomorrow and its on and done..... I guess the point that Im trying to make is... not all companies are trying to gouge us...but this example as I'm finding with almost all boat issues...Patience does play a huge part in a successful outcome. PS we wouldn't have paid for your up charge either.
We just had our sails cleaned and had a new sacrificial stripe sewn on our Genoa. The firm we used was Doyle sails in Annapolis. they quoted us a price when we dropped the sails off, in the fall. A few weeks ago we were to pick up the sails. ...During the down time we also had a canvas maker build us a new sail cover..... Just before we were to pick up our sails...we received a call from the canvas maker that they made our sail cover in the wrong blue..... We went back and forth and they gave us the option of taking the wrong color at a 50% discount.... we did....So we then called UK sails..is it still possible to change the sac cover to the new color....they said no problem..and did. A few weeks later we go down to pick up the sails..... Sails are done..packed and I wanted to take a look at the new stripe...they pulled the sails and they look great...however I notice they are no sheets in the bag....So I ask where are the sheets?..We go in the back and look, no sheets... I thought for sure I placed them in the bag last fall.....They said they would check with the firm that washed the sails and ship them to us...and if they didn't have them they would replace them at no charge to us!....so we go home..some what satisfied. The following weekend we go to the boat to install the sails....I'm looking through a locker to get some temporary sheets to rig on the genny...and what do I find????...the original sheets....well with my tail between my legs we reinstall the sheets and I call Doyle Sails thank them for everything and tell them I have the sheets...they thank me and we are all cool...We get the invoice and its exactly what was quoted..no upcharge to change the color of the sac stripe....very satisfied.....Then the canvas guy calls...said the cover is done..we pick it up the following weekend...bring down to the boat...colors match...we install...half of it fits the other (around the mast) doesn't...even though they made the trip to the boat and measured themselves...we go back and forth....they then tell me they are going to build us a new one from scratch in the original color...(No it has to be the new color now because we had Doyle change to the second color) They will have it next week...we are still awaiting that result...maybe Ill be pleasantly surprised when I go to the boat tomorrow and its on and done..... I guess the point that Im trying to make is... not all companies are trying to gouge us...but this example as I'm finding with almost all boat issues...Patience does play a huge part in a successful outcome. PS we wouldn't have paid for your up charge either.
NAME NAMES!!!
T J If the consensus here determines the loft is guilty of underhanded and/or unethical and/or questionable (if not illegal) business practices, why not name names? Just think if you had seen them identified as less than upfront in a thread posted here BEFORE you went to them. Shouldn’t you do this to help your fellow sailors avoid the same grief that you’ve experienced? Paul
T J If the consensus here determines the loft is guilty of underhanded and/or unethical and/or questionable (if not illegal) business practices, why not name names? Just think if you had seen them identified as less than upfront in a thread posted here BEFORE you went to them. Shouldn’t you do this to help your fellow sailors avoid the same grief that you’ve experienced? Paul
Kudo's to Doyle
Doyle is the second loft that I went to, and the loft that I will stay with, based on their customer service and effort to meet my needs. John at Doyle talked to me first to get a feel for the types of sailing that I do, and plan on doing, and then made recommendations based on that. Where he didn't have answers, he admitted it and then went out and found the answers for me. He could have sold me more sail than he did and made himself a little more money now, but instead sold me what I needed and now has a loyal customer, that will likely spend more down the road. I don't mind paying a little extra for service that goes above and beyond, it's paying for things that were snuck in below that irks me. As someone previously mentioned, this gets chalked up in the 'lessons learned' category. When someone in the service industry fumbles so badly, intentionally or unintentionally, it'll be a long time, if ever that I return. T J ps - Per Paul's request, it was UK Sails here in Chicago that spoiled my day, specifically Tod Patton. Jim Considine is the one who bent a little when asked, but in my opinion too little, too late.
Doyle is the second loft that I went to, and the loft that I will stay with, based on their customer service and effort to meet my needs. John at Doyle talked to me first to get a feel for the types of sailing that I do, and plan on doing, and then made recommendations based on that. Where he didn't have answers, he admitted it and then went out and found the answers for me. He could have sold me more sail than he did and made himself a little more money now, but instead sold me what I needed and now has a loyal customer, that will likely spend more down the road. I don't mind paying a little extra for service that goes above and beyond, it's paying for things that were snuck in below that irks me. As someone previously mentioned, this gets chalked up in the 'lessons learned' category. When someone in the service industry fumbles so badly, intentionally or unintentionally, it'll be a long time, if ever that I return. T J ps - Per Paul's request, it was UK Sails here in Chicago that spoiled my day, specifically Tod Patton. Jim Considine is the one who bent a little when asked, but in my opinion too little, too late.
Good Rant!!
As they say, I feel you pain! This is a fairly prevalent problem with firms that provide repair services. Basically they should not do anything beyond what was "contracted". However, if there was something really serious and, compared with the option of (1) puting the project away, in this case it's a sail, calling the customer to get an okay, then finding the sail again, unrolling it, doing the little bit of work, folding it up again and puting it away, vs. (2) doing the work on the spot. In the long run Option 2 is far more efficient adn would save everybody a lot of money. However, that's provided the repair work is relatively insignificant compared to the work of stoping and restarting. Whenever a project is stopped and then restarted there is time and productivity lost. Not only in all the motions I mentioned above, the folding, unfolding, etc., but also that slack time in finishing one project, *sigh*, coffee break, chat with someone who came in the door, etc. We're humans and this happens. But - going from, say $260 to $685, that's a delta of about $400. Assume a shop rate of 100/hr (which is probably way high) that's a half a days work. This in no way equates to saving you money by not wasting the time to call you for an okay. In contracting the prase is "out of scope". You contract with me to build you a house and I put a hot tub in the backyard - that's out of scope. Measuring is measuring - no sewing machine or hand sewing required. Puting numbers on is an ironing process - no sewing required. If it was discovered that stiching was required before the numbers were glued on then I could see the extra work. You don't want the numbers put on and then they tell you there is a bad seam, remove the numbers, stich, then replace the numbers. In this case I'd say the "little bit extra" work could be easily justified. Say 12 minutes on the machine, 0.2 hours x $100/hr = $20. That's less than 10% of the original estimate. Was this in the original scope? Not really. But it's poor workmanship to put numbers over a defective seam or to sew over the numbers. In this case, $20, I'd pay it. In your case, ouch! You have the sails and they're asking for money so it's your call. Do what's fair - but the question is "what's fair?." The full price isn't. The $500 they're asking? I don't know. I'd hate to be in your shoes. Good luck in your decision and I'm glad you found yourself a new loft with people that you can work with.
As they say, I feel you pain! This is a fairly prevalent problem with firms that provide repair services. Basically they should not do anything beyond what was "contracted". However, if there was something really serious and, compared with the option of (1) puting the project away, in this case it's a sail, calling the customer to get an okay, then finding the sail again, unrolling it, doing the little bit of work, folding it up again and puting it away, vs. (2) doing the work on the spot. In the long run Option 2 is far more efficient adn would save everybody a lot of money. However, that's provided the repair work is relatively insignificant compared to the work of stoping and restarting. Whenever a project is stopped and then restarted there is time and productivity lost. Not only in all the motions I mentioned above, the folding, unfolding, etc., but also that slack time in finishing one project, *sigh*, coffee break, chat with someone who came in the door, etc. We're humans and this happens. But - going from, say $260 to $685, that's a delta of about $400. Assume a shop rate of 100/hr (which is probably way high) that's a half a days work. This in no way equates to saving you money by not wasting the time to call you for an okay. In contracting the prase is "out of scope". You contract with me to build you a house and I put a hot tub in the backyard - that's out of scope. Measuring is measuring - no sewing machine or hand sewing required. Puting numbers on is an ironing process - no sewing required. If it was discovered that stiching was required before the numbers were glued on then I could see the extra work. You don't want the numbers put on and then they tell you there is a bad seam, remove the numbers, stich, then replace the numbers. In this case I'd say the "little bit extra" work could be easily justified. Say 12 minutes on the machine, 0.2 hours x $100/hr = $20. That's less than 10% of the original estimate. Was this in the original scope? Not really. But it's poor workmanship to put numbers over a defective seam or to sew over the numbers. In this case, $20, I'd pay it. In your case, ouch! You have the sails and they're asking for money so it's your call. Do what's fair - but the question is "what's fair?." The full price isn't. The $500 they're asking? I don't know. I'd hate to be in your shoes. Good luck in your decision and I'm glad you found yourself a new loft with people that you can work with.
WOW
It's a bummer, but at least you got the stuff fixed. What exactly was it that they "had" to fix for you? You may have received a bargain in that your sails are now in better shape. YOU get to USE them with the improvements. What, with all the rants, can WE as a group do to get sail makers to hear us? Maybe give them a paper that says: "If you do anything, anything to my sails without first advising me, I am NOT going to pay you one cent for that work and will consider reducing the payments for what I asked you to do in the first place by 50% because of the grief and b-s you caused." That might get their attention. Or, just find someone you trust, like we did. Stu
It's a bummer, but at least you got the stuff fixed. What exactly was it that they "had" to fix for you? You may have received a bargain in that your sails are now in better shape. YOU get to USE them with the improvements. What, with all the rants, can WE as a group do to get sail makers to hear us? Maybe give them a paper that says: "If you do anything, anything to my sails without first advising me, I am NOT going to pay you one cent for that work and will consider reducing the payments for what I asked you to do in the first place by 50% because of the grief and b-s you caused." That might get their attention. Or, just find someone you trust, like we did. Stu
Loft Owner might Appreciate your Input!
Furstenau, Sorry to hear of your bad experience. Fortunately, I have a good relationship with the loft. They call anytime they do anything outside their written estimate. I would not pay them a dime more than the estimate without a written listing of all additional work, why it was done, and the time required. If you pay him what he asks they will do it again. If you do not pay them, I will guarrantee you that some heads will roll. Let him take you to court. Jon
Furstenau, Sorry to hear of your bad experience. Fortunately, I have a good relationship with the loft. They call anytime they do anything outside their written estimate. I would not pay them a dime more than the estimate without a written listing of all additional work, why it was done, and the time required. If you pay him what he asks they will do it again. If you do not pay them, I will guarrantee you that some heads will roll. Let him take you to court. Jon
Two questions
TJ Ask yourself two questions; 1) Was the extra work that they did really necessary? 2) Was the extra work worth $240. If the answer to both are yes, IMHO you should pay them. If the answer to either question is no, don't pay them a dime more than you were originally quoted. Also, remember that it is the owner that will loose the money if you don't pay, not the pushy salesman. From what you have said, the owner seems to be reasonable and is trying to find a reasonable solution. ian
TJ Ask yourself two questions; 1) Was the extra work that they did really necessary? 2) Was the extra work worth $240. If the answer to both are yes, IMHO you should pay them. If the answer to either question is no, don't pay them a dime more than you were originally quoted. Also, remember that it is the owner that will loose the money if you don't pay, not the pushy salesman. From what you have said, the owner seems to be reasonable and is trying to find a reasonable solution. ian
My experience
was with Sailcare in PA. Sent them my main and jib in November for cleaning, sealing, numerous repairs, adding a sun band, and adding another reef point. They called me in about 10 days with an item by item estimate of $625 for approval. Turn around time was about 4 weeks total. They did excellent work at a very reasonable price. Very satisfied. Sorry to hear about others getting hosed.
was with Sailcare in PA. Sent them my main and jib in November for cleaning, sealing, numerous repairs, adding a sun band, and adding another reef point. They called me in about 10 days with an item by item estimate of $625 for approval. Turn around time was about 4 weeks total. They did excellent work at a very reasonable price. Very satisfied. Sorry to hear about others getting hosed.
Other Side of the Coin
A couple of years ago I sent a genoa to SailCare for an estimate on cleaning it. It was not originally made for my boat and was not a perfect fit, and when they sent me their estimate (very reasonable) I decided not to spend the money, as I would soon be buying new sails. However, I was slow getting back to them to tell them just to ship it back to me, and when I did, they informed me they had already run it through and cleaned it, but would not charge me. I paid anyway, as it was my error, not theirs. I have heard of several similar instances where they have not charged for repairs/alterations because of communication hang-ups. If the loft did not get your approval to do "necessary" repairs in advance, then the communication problem is theirs and they are making a pretty big assumption to expect you to pay for the work. THEY need to learn something from this whole experience - it is obvious that you already have.
A couple of years ago I sent a genoa to SailCare for an estimate on cleaning it. It was not originally made for my boat and was not a perfect fit, and when they sent me their estimate (very reasonable) I decided not to spend the money, as I would soon be buying new sails. However, I was slow getting back to them to tell them just to ship it back to me, and when I did, they informed me they had already run it through and cleaned it, but would not charge me. I paid anyway, as it was my error, not theirs. I have heard of several similar instances where they have not charged for repairs/alterations because of communication hang-ups. If the loft did not get your approval to do "necessary" repairs in advance, then the communication problem is theirs and they are making a pretty big assumption to expect you to pay for the work. THEY need to learn something from this whole experience - it is obvious that you already have.
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