Diffifcult Re-Starts

Coyote

Coyote

.
Sep 30, 2008
129
Hunter 30T Madeira Beach, Florida
On our Oday 28, we have a Universal M-12. NEVER an issue getting it started.
The last couple of sailing trips, I've had a problem Re-Starting the engine after a few hours under sail.
I turn the ignition key, hold down the glow plug button for 15 seconds, then push in the start button,,,, zip,,,, no turning over, nothing,, I'd try making sure I'm in Neutral, which I understand with that engine is a non issue -- and maybe five or so attempts in 10 minutes or so,,, to life it comes!
NEW batteries, fully charged when we leave the dock,,, we do not use a lot of DC power under sail -- only Nav-Comm,,,
thinking of replacing the start button, maybe corrosion,,,
also going the check batteries with a Hydrometer for a bad cell,,

any other ideas would be appreciated,
and as always, Thank You,,
Coyote
 
Richard19068

Richard19068

.
Jun 11, 2004
1,633
Oday 31 Redondo Beach
Assuming you are just getting a click or nothing when you push the starter it may well be old /undersized wiring and or corroded connectors. See the attached bulletin. You might want to at least clean up the connectors at the terminals and the harness and maybe replace the wire from the start button to the starter.
 

Attachments

Coyote

Coyote

.
Sep 30, 2008
129
Hunter 30T Madeira Beach, Florida
and PS ----
ONLY in this Forum would I have gotten 20+ year old Service Bulletin, for my issue, in 10 minutes,,, very cool,
and again, THANKS!

Coyote
 
centerline

centerline

.
Mar 20, 2012
3,983
Cal 34-III, MacGregor 25 Salem, Oregon
check for a faulty starter button or solenoid.... when its in fail mode, see if you have juice on BOTH starter button terminals when the button is down.... and if you do, check that the power is getting to the small terminal on the start solenoid.... if you have power there and it still is not cranking, there are 5 areas to look at, one of which is probably only a loose or corroded connection.

possibly a bad starter switch, or wire terminals... if power passes thru it dependably, check for the following....
a bad solenoid...
a faulty hot wire supplying the power to the starter switch...
a bad ground from the battery to the engine block....
a bad hot wire from the battery to the starter.....
a bad ground connection from the starter to the engine block....

double check both ends of each wire to insure the connections are clean and tight...
 
hewebb

hewebb

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Oct 8, 2011
329
Catalina Catalina 25 Joe Pool Lake
Mine did that and it was the starter button. When I replaced it I found some loose connections on other instruments.
 
Stu Jackson

Stu Jackson

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Feb 26, 2004
22,776
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
No click at all? Check for the fuse and fuseholder between the starter button (rarely, very rarely is it the button, the skippers are right, check all the connectors) and the starter solenoid. Also check your main engine ground. Pull on it, hard! Take it off and clean it up.
 
T

tcwaltz

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May 16, 2011
140
Oday 28 Niceville, FL
One other thing, not directly related to the electrical persay. I have a 2GM20F in my 28 now. I have Racor filter. We added an electric fuel pump after the tank and before the Racor. We also added a loop back to the tank with a valve. I've had instances where I'm out and the mechanical pump can't quite push fuel through the racor because of trash and what not or its being a pain in the ass to start up. In this case I can turn on the electric pump and get it started easily. Also helps with bleeding the system and Polishing the fuel (using the bypass). Food for thought.
 
Apex

Apex

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Jun 19, 2013
1,197
C&C 30 Elk Rapids
Stu Jackson said:
No click at all? Check for the fuse and fuseholder between the starter button (rarely, very rarely is it the button, the skippers are right, check all the connectors) and the starter solenoid. Also check your main engine ground. Pull on it, hard! Take it off and clean it up.
Click to expand
I found mine to be the engine ground....it felt tight, but when I removed, cleaned and re-installed life was good. The PO dealt with intermittent starter issues for years, only time I have had problems since was due to battery condition.
 
Coyote

Coyote

.
Sep 30, 2008
129
Hunter 30T Madeira Beach, Florida
Thank You for all the suggestions --

decided to try to REPLACE the Momentary Start Button, and see if that resolves the problem, and YES, yesterday afternoon, after the replacement, started right up,, FINE,,
the old button did have signs of corrosion and a patina around the brass threads

Again, wanted to simulate the condition where we had the problem, so,,,,,,

Arrived at the dock, disconnected power cord etc.... as if we were leaving the slip,
and immediately ran the engine for 15 minutes, NO PROBLEM!
turned it off,,
then let it sit for TWO HOURS with battery power on, running Nav-Comm and Accessories as we would under way, with Ice Box turned off,,,

checked the battery levels after two hour sit, NO PROBLEM, 12.5 volts each, and tried to start engine again and NO PROBLEM, fired right up,,,

I will still check batteries with a Hydrometer,

WHERE is the location of the Engine Ground Wire?? worth cleaning---

cheers and THANKS!
Coyote
 
Stu Jackson

Stu Jackson

.
Feb 26, 2004
22,776
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Coyote said:
WHERE is the location of the Engine Ground Wire?? worth cleaning---
Click to expand
There should be a large black wire from the batteries to the engine. On Universals it's usually connected to the back of the engine at the bell housing. Should be at least a #4 wire.
 
Coyote

Coyote

.
Sep 30, 2008
129
Hunter 30T Madeira Beach, Florida
Hardest Bolt EVER

I did try to remove the bolt that holds the two battery ground wires to the block,,, INCREDIBLY hard to try to access, INCREDIBLY hard to try to remove the bolt for cleaning,,,
Sprayed the bolt with Liquid Wrench, still no movement,, I have hand strength like vice grips,, tried using a ratchet, wrenches, etc...

there seemed to only be slight corrosion present on the bolt head, so decided to leave it for know, fearing I might do more harm than good at this point,,

is the any type of spray corrosion remover I could try???

as always, Thanks!
Coyote
 
Richard19068

Richard19068

.
Jun 11, 2004
1,633
Oday 31 Redondo Beach
Coyote said:
I did try to remove the bolt that holds the two battery ground wires to the block,,, INCREDIBLY hard to try to access, INCREDIBLY hard to try to remove the bolt for cleaning,,,
Sprayed the bolt with Liquid Wrench, still no movement,, I have hand strength like vice grips,, tried using a ratchet, wrenches, etc...

there seemed to only be slight corrosion present on the bolt head, so decided to leave it for know, fearing I might do more harm than good at this point,,

is the any type of spray corrosion remover I could try???

as always, Thanks!
Coyote
Click to expand
I think Liquid Wrench is a ways down on the list of good penetrating oils. I like Aero Kroil, lots of people here like PB Blaster. Watch out not to overspray. Let it sit a while, spray a couple of times. Don't break it off. Eventually it should loosen.
 
jibes138

jibes138

.
Jan 27, 2008
3,045
ODay 35 Beaufort, NC
Work it back and forth. Sometimes this helps break up the corrosion locking the bolt. As noted don't break it off but after putting pressure on it to loosen it put the same amount to tighten it, then try to loosen it again, a little more PB Blaster, let it sit then try again. Good luck. In the end if you cant get it off, get a new ground wire and move it to another bolt that you can get off.
 
jibes138

jibes138

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Jan 27, 2008
3,045
ODay 35 Beaufort, NC
Another option....remove the ground wire at the battery. Using a multimeter set to the Ohms function touch the probes together and you should see 0 ohms (or a wicked small number). Now touch one probe to the end of the cable you removed from the battery and touch the other end to some metal part of the engine. You should still see a really small number or 0. This suggests you have a good electrical path with very low resistance. It does not necessarily mean the connection can carry really high current but at least you know you have a ground.
 
Richard19068

Richard19068

.
Jun 11, 2004
1,633
Oday 31 Redondo Beach
jibes138 said:
Another option....remove the ground wire at the battery. Using a multimeter set to the Ohms function touch the probes together and you should see 0 ohms (or a wicked small number). Now touch one probe to the end of the cable you removed from the battery and touch the other end to some metal part of the engine. You should still see a really small number or 0. This suggests you have a good electrical path with very low resistance. It does not necessarily mean the connection can carry really high current but at least you know you have a ground.
Click to expand

Good idea. I wonder if some electrical guy could say how many amps could flow given what the resistance measurement was.

If you divide the voltage by the ohms does that give you the potential current carrying capacity.

Forgive me if this is a stupid question. I'm an accountant not an ee.
 
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